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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2358
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 30, 2020 9:48 am

Aussie/Frank
Without wishing to make this a how-long-is-a-piece-of-string exercise, even your reverse engineering starting at 7-ish can be questioned:

Cochrane
“[On the 22nd Durnford] marched for Sandlwana at about 7.30 or 8 a.m.”

Vause
“About 7.30 all was ready and the order to march was given”

WAGGONS TRAVEL AT 3 M.P.H. ON THE FLAT. CHARD WROTE THAT THAT MORNING “The road was very heavy in some places, and the [empty] wagon went slowly.” THREE WATERCOURSES [BASHEE, NCEPHENI, MANZIMNYAMA] HAD TO BE FORDED, INVOLVING THE HITCHING AND UNHITCHING OF EXTRA OF TEAMS OF OXEN. ONE MIGHT EXPECT A DISTANCE OF 10-12 MILES TO BE COVERED IN 5 HOURS.

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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2358
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 30, 2020 9:49 am

Sorry, the sudden switch to capital letters was unintentional.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 30, 2020 3:36 pm

5 hours? totally blows apart the morning. If Cochrane is correct then the wagons wouldnt arrive before 1 in the afternoon?

Unfortunatly with the lockdown in SA, I got caught away from home, I dont have access to any of my library or computer.
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2358
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 30, 2020 5:46 pm

FRANK

I THINK ERSKINE AND THE WAGGONS ARRIVED ON THE SADDLE AT ABOUT 12.30-12.35 P.M.  IF, AS ERSKINE STATED, THEY LEFT THE BASHEE AT 10 A.M., AN ARRIVAL TWO AND A HALF HOURS LATER IS PERFECTLY POSSIBLE.

Erskine:                                                                                                                                                      
“We had then heard the firing of the cannon for about a quarter of an hour…and I continued to hear it until I arrived at the camp at Isandhlwana…There I took my escort to the front which was about a mile ahead of the camp.  I placed my men in position and told them ‘to fire low’.”  

THE WAGGONS MUST HAVE ARRIVED AT THE CAMP ABOUT 12.35 (THE GUNS BEGAN FIRING AT ABOUT 12.20).  WHEN VAUSE & ERSKINE ARRIVED IN CAMP, DURNFORD HAD ALREADY LEFT AND THERE WERE NO ORDERS LEFT FOR THEM – CORRESPONDINGLY LIKE GOOD SOLDIERS THEY MARCHED THEIR MEN TO THE FRONT, THE LEFT FRONT IN VAUSE’S CASE & THE RIGHT FRONT IN ERSKINE’S.  NOTE THAT ERSKINE DID NOT SEE STAFFORD OR RECEIVE ANY ORDERS FROM HIM AT THIS POINT.

NOTE THAT ERSKINE'S ACCOUNT IS CONTEMPORARY.

THIS TIME THE CAPITALS ARE INTENTIONAL TO DISTINGUISH THEM FROM THE QUOTATION.
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2133
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Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 31, 2020 9:29 am

What a pity no-one had thought to synchronise their watches on Wednesday, 22nd January 1879!

JY
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aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 55
Location : MELBOURNE

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 31, 2020 11:16 am

Uguku account says the the first gun shot landed north of Bazas kraal near Mkwene I time it as close as 12 noon { this is the location were Lieut Roberts lost his life } then moved in the direction of the rocket battery Nqutu ridge at around 12:15pm, the discovery around 11:45am and would of taken around 20min from the discovery point to Mkwene.

If you believe the guns started firing at 12:30 this is when I place the arrival of the inGabamokosi streaming down the notch the battle by then has been going on for around 30 minutes.

Brickhill times Raw and Roberts left camp around 11am about the same time the rocket battery arrived in the camp stayed around 15 min and left.

No one has commented on Barkers testimony concerning spotting the Basutos on his extreme left clearly being Raw and Roberts and then gunshots being heard direct evidence from an eyewitness from a location we know for certain where he was ITUSI, the Ngwbeni valley is pure fiction a 141 year old fiction. and even Ian Knight admits there is no direct evidence the Ngwebeni valley was even scouted during the 3 days they were at Isandlwana and still they believe that was the location of the discovery.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 31, 2020 2:30 pm

John
Of course that's true, but there would have been some localized synchronicity.  Nourse/Stafford/Erskine received a written order from Durnford for D coy/RB to proceed from the Bashee.  That order would have had the time of issue on it and the officer receiving it would have had to pencil on it the time of receipt.  Nourse or Stafford or both would have had a timepiece and what was said would have been within Erskine's earshot, hence 10 a.m. being a 'safe bet', in my opinion.

Aussie
Uguku certainly didn't have a timepiece.  
Shepstone and Gardner arrived in the camp together at noon.  It was as a result of the ensuing conversation with Pulleine that F coy was despatched to the top of the spur.  
It was after this that Essex was sent up to withdraw Mostyn/Cavaye and E coy was sent out with the guns to cover their withdrawal. For confirmation, read Curling who noted that Smith had accompanied Gardner and led the gun section out to take up position (the 'first' shot of Uguku could not have been as early as 12 - just as Smith was arriving!!).  
Taylor noted that the first shots from the guns landed as the RB was being attacked from the left.
Erskine with Durnford's waggons began to hear the guns for a quarter of hour before he arrived on the saddle.
So we have a clear ordered sequence of events from noon to the first gun being fired.

More important than timings is an ordered sequence of events, ALL events.  Once that is established, approximations of timings can be made from the few known fixed times, based on positions, distance and speed travelled.  Without a time machine those approximations will be the best series of times historians will have.  BUT everything mentioned in contemporary accounts must fit within the 'jigsaw' framework of logical parameters created by those approximations of time if there is to be any chance of meaningful accuracy.

As for the timings you suggest arising from Barker's testimony and the rest of the timings stemming from it re Roberts/Raw/etc., they all depend on the earlier timings - that's why I've gone back to earlier in the day.  And so they will have to wait for another post.  Otherwise the clarity of this one will obscured and there'll be too much to take in.
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aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 55
Location : MELBOURNE

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 01, 2020 10:43 am

The issue with times is that some eye witness accounts do not match others

Julian your trying to establish a time piece of the whole battle on Erskine who was at the Batshe stream at around 10am or we believe that is the correct time if that is wrong then all else is wrong from eye witnesses who was at Isandlwana during the events between 10am and 11am this hour is critical seeing Durnford made the moves which was critical as to the outcome of the battle this is the time table I have calculated
Durnford arrives in camp around 10am Higginson was on Mkwene on Durnfords arrival the reason he was sent to Mkwene is because reports are coming in that large numbers of Zulus have arrived this is in fact the uMcijo and Nokenke regiments and possibly the uMcityu regiment also Uguku and another Zulu confirms this, it is also important to add Mehlokazulu in his testimony describes the location of the discovery and the circumstances under the Nqutu ridge not the Ngbweni valley.

On Higginson return Durnford orders him to send a look out on Isandlwana and then the report comes in that the Zulus are retiring this is what Durnfords acts on and the moves he is about to make shape the battle. then an eye witness gives a time that Raw and Roberts are given there orders at 10:50am so the report comes in shortly before 10:50am another eye witness confirms they leave camp 11am all is matching then another eyewitness confirms the rocket battery arrive 11am and given orders and leave around 11:15 all these match other eye witness testimony then Barker who was sent to HQ with the news of his find of a large Zulu army behind a hill a short distance from Itusi { this is in fact Ugukus regiment not returning to the Ngbweni but waiting for the red coats } he confirms meeting the rocket battery about 30 minutes before there contact with the zulu I estimate it as 11:30am which is close to the mark if all the historians read all this correctly then this fantasy of the whole army being discovered behind Mabaso would not be official. THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN FROM EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY.

So if you go buy Erskine movements then all the other above times will not match there all wrong the odds are the time Erskine give is in error maybe they left the Batshe stream earlier or arrived at the camp earlier. Another important time is Commander Brown gives the time of the right horn entering the saddle as 1:30am all must be done in this time period this confirms the times of Durnford making his moves as to between 10:30 and 11am and discovery around 11:45 first action around Mkwene around 12 noon Rocket battery falls around 12:10 - 15pm arrival of the chest from the Ngbweni valley around 12:30pm and Durnford falls back to camp from the final donga around 1:15pm perhaps a little earlier and then the right horn entering the saddle at 1:30pm. This fits perfectly with eyewitness testimony with the amount of time that would have been covered by those who where there on that day.
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2358
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 01, 2020 12:15 pm

Aussie

You are correct that some eye witnesses’ accounts’ timings do not match others.
I am trying to establish reasonably accurate timings as you are for certain events where there is a degree of agreement.  To do this I’m using only contemporary accounts, one of which is Erskine’s, and the logistics of travel.

I think it more likely that Durnford arrived in camp around 10.30 a.m. (Chard, Cochrane, Brickhill, Hamer, Davies).

Higginson was indeed on Mkwene at that time and on his return Durnford did order him to send lookouts on to the summit of Isandlwana.  The latter must have occurred 5-10 mins. into the Pulleine-Durnford meeting (say 10.40-10.45) after seniority had been established.  

You are correct that it was then that a report came in that the Zulus were retiring.  After some discussion and issuing of orders, Raw, Roberts and Vause left camp “about 11 a.m.” (Brickhill).  From contemporary accounts (Vause, Davies, Cochrane) this is more precisely to have been 11.00-11.15 as Vause’s troop did not arrive until 11).

You wrote that “another eyewitness confirms the rocket battery arrive 11am and given orders and leave around 11:15”.  This is not accurate enough.  The three eye-witnesses gave those times as 11 and 11.15, 11 and 11.10 and 10.30 and 10.50 – a discrepancy of 25 mins. (Grant, Trainer, Johnson).  None of them had a watch.  You picked one account in preference to the other two.  Based on calculations from other fixed timings and speeds already outlined, one of which is Erskine (but equally helpful in determining this are Cochrane, Vause, Brickhill, Davies), I estimate an arrival time for the Rocket Battery of 11.15-11.20 at the earliest.

I’ve tried not rely on just one eye-witness as cross-referencing is essential.  The events after this which you describe, based on Barker and his sequence of events, are probably accurate but he gives no timings.  Browne, writing thirty years after the event, can only be regarded as unreliable re precise times.
It was impossible for the reasons (my earlier sequence of described events, not just timings) for the Rocket Battery to have fallen “around 12:10 - 15pm” as you suggest.  The sequence of events remember was Noon-Dinner-Gardner/Shepstone arrive-Mostyn’s dispatch-Mostyn’s recall-E coy/R.A.’s dispatch to cover Mostyn-guns commence firing/Taylor’s testimony of the attack on the Rocket Battery.
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aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
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Age : 55
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyThu Apr 02, 2020 3:21 am

Hi Julian
All these times the eye witnesses gave are all aprox like you said many did not have watches and even if they did they would not have look at it as all these actions were happening, my personal opinion is that the Barker account meeting with the Rocket battery and then going back to Itusi where he from a distance viewed the discovery and heard the first shots clearly indicates the true location of the discovery which will also mean that Raw and Roberts and the Rocket battery must of both left the camp only a short period of time apart for Barker to return to Itusi in time to witness what he did he did state that he just arrived there when all this happend, so if he was minutes later he would of missed it.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyThu Apr 02, 2020 7:33 am

Morning all.
Aussie just a small point, Barker never got back to iThusi. He witnessed the destruction/part of it, from a donga. IF he had got passed the base of the ridge where the incidence occured he would have been involved in the mass flight of the NNC, in spite of the detail he goes into that occurence isnt mentioned. I would therefore assume he hadne got much further than the upper reaches of the Nyogane donga. Would that have an impact on your timings?
Julian
As mentioned I have no access to any data, even this is from my phone, but there are a couple of issues i will take up on your timing once Im allowed to travel and go home.
Stay safe everyone.
Regards
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2358
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyThu Apr 02, 2020 9:27 am

Hi
Well Aussie, I'm not out to 'convert' anyone. You asked for thoughts on your post and the reasoning. And I gave it, that's all. I've only responded re the first part of your narrative, deliberately so, because that MUST hang together before any timing of later events, dependent upon it, can be determined.
Frank - I'm always happy to receive comments and to consider implications to get to the truth!
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyThu Apr 02, 2020 5:36 pm

John Young wrote:
What a pity no-one had thought to synchronise their watches on Wednesday, 22nd January 1879!

JY

Now there's a good point.
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aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 05, 2020 8:23 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Morning all.
Aussie just a small point, Barker never got back to iThusi. He witnessed the destruction/part of it, from a donga. IF he had got passed the base of the ridge where the incidence occured he would have been involved in the mass flight of the NNC, in spite of the detail he goes into that occurence isnt mentioned. I would therefore assume he hadne got much further than the upper reaches of the Nyogane donga. Would that have an impact on your timings?
Julian
As mentioned I have no access to any data, even this is from my phone, but there are a couple of issues i will take up on your timing once Im allowed to travel and go home.
Stay safe everyone.
Regards


Hi Frank
Read his testimony carefully he said he saw Zulus on all the hills these are the hills once he got up the top of the notch the same hills the zulus were screening 1 hour ago the reason those zulus were on the hills is to stop prying eyes from seeing whats behind the hill they were screening the army behind the hill that was there purpose Barker proves that one hour earlier. I dont think he was on Itusi either but only a short distance from it he got on top of the notch and then saw the Basutos and the screening force of Zulus in the same position as they were one hour earlier meaning the army is still there. Then after the firing which he heard then he states he reported to Scott then advanced to the donga beside {short distance from the rocket battery where he saw its demise or in his words cut up my pan shows it perfectly.

Frank when Barker says he saw Zulus on the hills are you saying there on the Nqutu ridge ? or do you think he went up the notch and about to turn right to get on Itusi that's when he saw what he saw, and the zulus on the hills are most likely the same zulus on the same hill as it was one hour earlier when he saw the army sitting down behind this hill
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 06, 2020 8:27 am

aussie
Do you mean to say that Barker met the RB on the way back to camp, delivered his message to Pulleine, returned to Itusi to meet Scott (presumably passing the RB again on his way back), and then came back down again?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 06, 2020 9:01 am

Have to admit im pretty confused.
My understanding of the sequence.
Barker sees zulu on the plateau.
Rides down to Amatutshane and tells Scott
Scott is seen on Amatutshane by Davies
Scott and Barker ride up onto the plateau
Scott is concerned enough to send Barker back to camp and other riders to Durnford.
Barker rides down to the plain ( not by the notch)
Meets RB
RB divert to the 'short cut'
RB is destroyed
Barker on his way back to Scott sees the RB under attack and comes under fire from the ridge. I suspect he is with the 2 companies of men at this point and his position close to the upper dongas of the Nyogane just West of Amatutshane.
Scott retires along the plateau collecting his men as he goes and rides back to camp.

In a nutshell my interpretation. There are a miriad of other incidents involved but the above are the bare bones. Could we start from there?
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 06, 2020 11:58 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
aussie
Do you mean to say that Barker met the RB on the way back to camp, delivered his message to Pulleine, returned to Itusi to meet Scott (presumably passing the RB again on his way back), and then came back down again?

This is Barkers testimony “ Shortly afterwards numbers of Zulus being seen on the hills to the left and front, Trooper Swift and another were sent back to report. The Zulus remained on the hills and about two hundred advanced to within three hundred yards of us , but on our advancing they retired out of sight and a few of us went up to this hill where the Zulus have disappeared , and on a further hill at about six hundred yards distance we saw a large army sitting down. We returned to Lieut Scott who was about three miles from camp and reported what we have seen Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp”. “ On our way back we noticed Zulus advancing slowly ,and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the Rocket Battery, who enquired the enemy’s whereabouts. We advised the officer to proceed to Lieut Scott was stationed , but he asked if he could get up the hill. We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour. The officer decided to proceed up this hill and the battery was , half an hour later cut up to a man , just as they arrived”.

He clearly made his report to HQ and connects with the rocket battery as he is returning to his vidette position which is Itusi in the above statement he sights Zulus
advancing this can only be on the Nqutu ridge but the sighting which clearly indicates the zulus on the hills when he sees the Basutos is as follows location “ As Hawkins and I were returning to the vidette outpost we noticed the mounted Basutos to the extreme left of the camp in skirmishing order and masses of the Zulus on all the hills. Firing was then heard for the first time, as although we had been within two hundred yards of the Zulus , we had strict orders not to fire the first shot, and no shot up to then had been fired on either side”. This is clearly after he goes up the notch where he sights the Basutos and for him to sights them then its after Raw and Roberts stop at Mkwene then sees the cattle and take chase after this the Basutos are in the open and Barker can clearly sees them he clearly says his extreme left and then hears gun shots the gun shots are the zulus firing at Raw and Roberts troops after the discovery is made
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 06, 2020 12:16 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Have to admit im pretty confused.
My understanding of the sequence.
Barker sees zulu on the plateau.
Rides down to Amatutshane and tells Scott
Scott is seen on Amatutshane by Davies
Scott and Barker ride up onto the plateau
Scott is concerned enough to send Barker back to camp and other riders to Durnford.
Barker rides down to the plain ( not by the notch)
Meets RB
RB divert to the 'short cut'
RB is destroyed
Barker on his way back to Scott sees the RB under attack and comes under fire from the ridge. I suspect he is with the 2 companies of men at this point and his position close to the upper dongas of the Nyogane just West of Amatutshane.
Scott retires along the plateau collecting his men as he goes and rides back to camp.
In a nutshell my interpretation. There are a miriad of other incidents involved but the above are the bare bones. Could we start from there?

The Key to all this is the first sighting Barker made which prompted his discovery of a large army hidden behind a hill and on that hill there were Zulus I have name them a screening force which ,  according to Wikipedia to define what a screening is “ Screening is a defensive tactic in which a picket or outposts are used to hide the nature and strength of a military force; provide early warning of enemy approach,  this is exactly what these zulus on top of the hills doing screening the real threat hidden behind, its a ZULU master stroke which no one had any idea of,  and we have only trooper Barker to thank.

We know Raw and Roberts left the camp before the rocket battery left the camp so for Barker to see these Basutos must be after they left Mkwene that is where they sight these cattle and Raw and Roberts are in the open chasing after these cattle this is the time Barker spots them and then firing is heard for the first time
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 06, 2020 2:33 pm

aussie
I undertand the problem now. It's one of interpretation. You are reading one thing into Barker's sentences and I am reading another.
Let's take this line:
"Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp. On our way back we noticed Zulus advancing slowly ,and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the Rocket Battery..."
You are reading this as:
"Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp. On our way back TO ITUSI we noticed Zulus advancing slowly, and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the Rocket Battery..."
I am reading it:
"Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp. On our way back TO CAMP we noticed Zulus advancing slowly, and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the Rocket Battery..."
To me only the second interpretation can make sense time- and space-wise.
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 06, 2020 7:20 pm

Julian thats born out by the comment: "he rode down from the hill", in reference to Barker aproaching the RB. That firmly places him descending from the plateau and consequently having been given a message from Scott places Scott on the plateau.
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 7:12 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
aussie
I undertand the problem now.  It's one of interpretation.  You are reading one thing into Barker's sentences and I am reading another.
Let's take this line:
"Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp. On our way back we noticed Zulus advancing slowly ,and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the Rocket Battery..."
You are reading this as:
"Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp. On our way back TO ITUSI we noticed Zulus advancing slowly, and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the Rocket Battery..."
I am reading it:
"Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp. On our way back TO CAMP we noticed Zulus advancing slowly, and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the Rocket Battery..."
To me only the second interpretation can make sense time- and space-wise.

Yes your correct it is an issue with interpretation you believe they the rocket battery and Barker connected on his way to camp and I have interpreted he reported his message to HQ and connected with the rocket battery on his way back to Itusi.  The reason I came with that conclusion is that Barkers Picket position was on Itusi for all that day and he was returning or going back to his position. which ever the true interpretation is it should not deter what he saw after all that and that is he saw the Basautos  on his extreme left and then heard gunshots for the first time  where do you Julian and Frank place Barker when he sees the Basautos  and heard the gunshots I place him on top of the notch a short distance from Itusi the reason is because when he states he saw masses of Zulus on all the hills I place them on the same hills they were screening the large army one hour before which prompted Barker report to HQ in the first place
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 7:53 am

aussie
Your interpretation does contain some very difficult elements which make it hard to countenance.
First it goes against Frank's comment above that Barker wrote he was going "down the hill" when he met the RB.
Secondly it would mean that Barker would have somehow missed encountering the RB when he returned to camp.
Thidly it would mean he informed Russell of the best way to ascend the ridge only minutes before he ascended it himself. Given that the RB was attacked during that ascent it would mean that Barker could only have missed by the narrowest of margins being surprised and killed himself. He would at the very least have seen the Zulus' proximity and the danger of his advice to the RB as soon as he mounted the crest of the ridge (YET didn't bother to turn round and tell the RB).
Fourthly, assuming that Barker did behave in this way and proceeded to Scott on Itusi, they would then have had to get back to camp from Itusi through the Zulus that then covered the plateau - quite a feat, if it happened, and there is no mention of it.
I'm sorry but in these respects your interpretation is illogical and I think incorrect.
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 11:57 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
aussie
Your interpretation does contain some very difficult elements which make it hard to countenance.
First it goes against Frank's comment above that Barker wrote he was going "down the hill" when he met the RB.
Secondly it would mean that Barker would have somehow missed encountering the RB when he returned to camp.  
Thidly it would mean he informed Russell of the best way to ascend the ridge [BARKER DID NOT TELL HIM TO ASC Salute END THE HILL HE SAID DONT GO UP THERE AND TO GO TO SCOTT] only minutes before he ascended it himself.  Given that the RB was attacked during that ascent it would mean that Barker could only have missed by the narrowest of margins being surprised and killed himself.  He would at the very least have seen the Zulus' proximity and the danger of his advice to the RB as soon as he mounted the crest of the ridge (YET didn't bother to turn round and tell the RB).
Fourthly, assuming that Barker did behave in this way and proceeded to Scott on Itusi, they would then have had to get back to camp from Itusi through the Zulus that then covered the plateau - quite a feat, if it happened, and there is no mention of it.
I'm sorry but in these respects your interpretation is illogical and I think incorrect.  


Julian
It does not say Barker was going down a hill when he met the rocket battery read Barkers testimony in my previous posts. You and Frank have it wrong

This is the course of events Barker is on Itusi he sees Zulus a distance from him follows they retired Bartker then sights a large Zulu army behind a hill, Barker then reports to Scott lets presume he is on Amatushane Scott orders him to make the report to HQ, he goes this is where we differ you say he meets the RB on his way to camp I say he meets the RB after he makes his report {also if you read it carefully it mentions within 30 minutes of meeting with Russel he is dead this also indicates Barker meets with the RB on his way back to Itusi because it would of taken far longer than 30 min for the rest to happen } then after meeting with the RB Barker proceeds up the notch where he says as he is returning to his vidette position, and Russel i am presuming is taking the advise of Barker and proceeding to Amatushane to meet with Scott So he Barker is near Itusi  he sees Raw and Roberts on his extreme left and then hears gunshots for the first time read his testimony again he is over the notch he said Zulus are within 200 meters  of him and Zulus are all over the hills { please identify the hills these are the same hills the zulus are on one hour previously} he retires and reports it to Scott again on Amatushane then they advance to a donga where he sees the destruction of the RB. thats how it happend we differ in where he meets with the RB PLEASE PLEASE identify where Barker was when he sights Raw and Roberts just before he hears the first gunshots this proves the discovery did not happend behind Mabasso and this is why we are exchanging thoughts which proves the title of this topic  is untrue The end of TMFHT.

PLEASE IDENTIFY WHERE BARKER WAS WHEN HE SIGHTS THE BASUTOS AND THEN HEARS GUNSHOTS this is most important, Frank if you can answer this as well I would be thankful. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 1:24 pm

Hi Aussie
Look at the survivors statements,
Nourse:
“…a vidette rode down to us from the hill and said – I quote his words – ‘If you want any fun come to the top of the hill. They are thick up there.’ We decided to go…”
Your concept becomes unstable when you look at a time and motions study of that period and location.
I believe that when Barker saw the Basuto and heard the firing he was heading east along the plain below the ridge, and subsequently took shelter from being shot at. The Basuto were retiring along the ridge, south of Mkweni and the zulu were in persute.
Your concept seems to have Barker riding up and down the the escarpment on quite number of occasions.
1) He is on station on the ridge
2) he rides down to tell Scott what he has seen
3) Scott rides uphill with Barker to see for himself
4) Barker rides back to camp, without seeing the RB
5) Barker returns to Amatutshane, sees the RB.
6) Barker rides up onto the ridge, sees the Raw Roberts retreat
7) Rides back to scott, downhill, must have passed the rocket battery again
8) informs Scott, on Amatutshane.
9) at that point sees the RB destroyed.

Sorry Mate, doesnt work


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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm

Aussie
Yes, sorry, it was Nourse that wrote "down...the hill" not Barker.  I'm sorry aussie, I'm not convinced.  I've tried but I can't make your time-space work.


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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 2:24 pm

Hi

This probably has nothing to do with the price of cheese but......

Interestingly (if I have read it right) both Johnson and Trainer say they met a Natal Carbineer - who offered to 'show' them a short cut.

I find this phrase strange (which is almost identical, in both statements, so does this indicate some common discussion between the two prior to giving their statements - or leading questioning by the interviewer) - 'offered to show' - does this mean offered to take them, or offered to point out the way.

Was the notch visible from this meeting point (of Barker & the RB) - if so why didn't Barker just point it out and say there 'is a short cut up there'

Grant does not mention the encounter......

Maybe I am just reading too much into words/terminology.

Ta

Sime

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 2:37 pm

SRB
Trainer and Johnson are both referring to Barker though not in much detail.  It was not The(traditional) Notch of course that Barker was indicating.  He could not take them because he was going in the opposite direction (see above comments) otherwise he might have.  He pointed it out to them (it was relatively close and visible).


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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 5:21 pm

Hi Julian,

I realise it was 'the notch' and not 'The Notch' (as Frank said to me some years ago)

As you say the conventional chain of events (Barker going back to camp and meeting the RB) but why 'offered to show us' instead of 'shown us', 'pointed a short cut out to us' or 'told us there was a short cut other there' (or whatever)

To my mind 'offered to show us a short cut' means offered to 'lead/guide us' but this was declined - based on 'he did not show us a short cut'.

Grant does not mention the meeting in his statement - so therefore if we were relying solely on him - the encounter would not have happened - so in movement 4 (above) Barker returns to camp without seeing the RB - perhaps Barker returns to camp and does not mention seeing the RB could be substituted.

According to the survivors of the RB they had travelled out between 2 and 4 miles (depending on whichever statement you are reading - according to the Google maps its about 3km (just under 2 miles ACF) from the camp are to the notches - maybe 45 minutes at a steady pace, perhaps more given the mules/NNI and terrain....

I know Frank has been looking at 'paths across the plain' would Barker have necessarily mentioned the RB - if seeing it from a distance instead of crossing its path (if travelling along a different path)

I really must get out more....when I am allowed to.....
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 5:46 pm

SRB
You are correct about Grant.
If I had been Barker and seen what I had seen, and saw the RB in the distance, then I would have gone out of my way to have warned them about what lay ahead. Barker is quite detailed about whom he met. I am sure if he had met the RB twice he would have said so.
"Offering to show" and "offered to show" do not necessarily imply guiding or leading. it could just mean 'point out in the landscape' or 'on a map' or even ride ahead with Russell a short distance to a point where the notch would be clearly visible. There is no evidence that Barker did personally intervene (why would he have done - he was carrying a message!!). One is left with the notion that he simply indicated descriptively to the RB where the notch was.
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 07, 2020 8:15 pm

Hi

Its just semantics and my confusion over the English language.

But equally 'offering' to do something did not mean it was done - I can offer to do some jobs around the house - it can either be declined because Mrs SRB knows I will mess it up or (more usually) accepted.

If and when it does go wrong, Mrs SRB will not say you 'offered to cut the grass and cut through the mower cable' she will say 'you cut the grass and cut through the mower cable' (true story)

Is there any evidence that the 'notch' the battery went up, is the short cut indicated by Barker.

I would feel better had Trainer and Johnson said he 'showed us a short cut/informed us of a short cut' - rather than 'offered to show'.

hay ho - one day I will get a grasp of the Anglo-Saxon langage.....

Cheers

Sime

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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 08, 2020 9:43 am

Interesting point Simon. Possible an examination of the Rocket Battery column could shed light.
Senior officer was Russell but would be be leading the column on a march or would a portion of the NNC guard be up front, I would say yes, and possibly lead by their commander, Captain Nourse. If that theory is correct then the first person to see Barker would have been Nourse, quite probably Russell seeing the approach of a rider at speed would have ridden along the column to join Nourse and be part of the discussion and make the decision to divert. He was the only one that could have made that decision.
In view of this scenario where would the RB staff have been? Further down the column and possibly out of ear shot but able to look on and most probably able to interpret the goings on.
Ive seen the originals of the statements and I seem to recall the handwriting was the same on all of them ( I could easily be wrong it was a long time ago) that would then lead to the possibility that the writer could have advised them on the wording. Even more its also a possibility that they were all together when the statements were being given, a sort of collective interpretation.
Getting back to the Anglo Saxon isms. Imagine a scenario of a highly excited Barker, heart pounding telling Russell that lots of fun was to be had and adding something like."Do you want me to show you a short cut"? To which the answer would have been a glance between the two commanders, Russell and Nourse, a possible shrug of the shoulders from one then Russell saying "which way"? and Barker pointing back over his shoulder with a, "did you see the way I came down, well do that and turn right at the top."
Would that scenario fit and 'calm the savage breast'?
Regards
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 08, 2020 10:00 am

SRB
I agree that there is some ambiguity in the wording but there's none in the meaning.  any lingering doubts are cleared up by Nourse.
Logic would also dictate Russell's asking the Zulus' whereabouts of someone riding from the direction of the enemy rather than from the direction of the camp.
As for 'notch' evidence, have a look at my 'Gunner Taylor' essay in Studies in the ZW vol IV, pp. 13-14 and map on p. 20.
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 08, 2020 11:18 am

Frank Allewell wrote:

Ive seen the originals of the statements and I seem to recall the handwriting was the same on all of them ( I could easily be wrong it was a long time ago) that would then lead to the possibility that the writer could have advised them on the wording. Even more its also a possibility that they were all together when the statements were being given, a sort of collective interpretation.

Or it could just be that the same scribbler recorded all 3 conversations at the COI. I feel that there are too many differences between the 3 accounts (distances/time etc) to indicate that they were all together in the same conversation.

It would be interesting to determine (if not now impossible) what order the statements were given in I would assume GTJ or GJT.......

Cheers

Sime
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 08, 2020 12:00 pm

I HAVE PLACED MY POINTS IN CAPITALS HOPING IT WILL BE EASIER TO UNDERSTAND
Hi Aussie
Look at the survivors statements,
Nourse:
“…a vidette rode down to us from the hill and said – I quote his words – ‘If you want any fun come to the top of the hill. They are thick up there.’ We decided to go…”   THIS HAPPEND AROUND 20 MINUTES AFTER THE DISCOVERY AT THIS TIME BARKER IS NEAR AMATASHANE REPORTING IT TO SCOTT AFTER HEARING THE FIRST SHOTS AROUND 15MINUTES EARLIER  NEAR ITUSI
Your concept becomes unstable when you look at a time and motions study of that period and location.
I believe that when Barker saw the Basuto  READ HIS TESTIMONY HE SEES RAW AND ROBERTS BEFORE HE HEARS THE GUNSHOTS THERE APPROACHING THE DISCOVERY LOCATION AND THEN THE FIRST SHOTS ARE HEARD CONFIRMING DISCOVERY and heard the firing he was heading east along the plain below the ridge, WHERE DOES HE SAY THAT and subsequently took shelter from being shot at. The Basuto were retiring along the ridge, south of Mkweni and the zulu were in persute. REMEMBER THESE ARE THE FIRST SHOTS BARKER HEARS CONFIRMING THE DISCOVERY THE BASUTOS AND THE ZULU ARE STILL EYEING EACH OTHER OF THEN THE ZULU ARE THE FIRST TO FIRE
Your concept seems to have Barker riding up and down the the escarpment on quite number of occasions.  ONLY 2 OCCASIONS FIRST AT 10:30 WHEN HE DISCOVERS THE ZULU ARMY AND AGAIN AT AROUND 11:45 WHEN HE SEES THE BASUTOS AND HEARS THE FIRST SHOTS COMING FROM HIS EXTREME LEFT
1) He is on station on the ridge  ON ITUSI WHEN HE DISCOVERS THE ZULU ARMY AROUND 10:30AM THE ZULU ARMY IS ONLY AROUND 800 METERS FROM ITUSI READ HIS TESTIMONY
2) he rides down to tell Scott what he has seen YES THAT IS WHAT BARKER SAID
3) Scott rides uphill with Barker to see for himself  THIS DID NOT HAPPEN READ IT FOR YOURSELF SCOTT SENDS BARKER TO REPORT IT TO HQ
4) Barker rides back to camp, without seeing the RB MAYBE THE RB HAVE NOT LEFT CAMP YET  
5) Barker returns to Amatutshane, sees the RB. BARKER IS ON HIS WAY TO HIS PICKET POSITION WHEN HE SIGHTS THE RB NOT AMATUSHANE BARKER SENDS RUSSELL TO AMATUTSHANE YOU NEED TO READ HIS TESTIMONY PROPERLY MATE YOUR MAKING LOTS OF MISTAKES
6) Barker rides up onto the ridge, sees the Raw Roberts retreat   YES HE SEES RAW AND ROBERTS AND HEARS THE FIRST GUN SHOTS WHICH CONFIRMS DISCOVERY
7) Rides back to scott, downhill, must have passed the rocket battery again   YOU KNOW WERE THE RB IS CUT UP BARKER WENT ALONG THE DIRECT ROUTE THERE SEVERAL 100 METERS APART
8) informs Scott, on Amatutshane. YES THEN ADVANCES TO THE DONGA WHERE HE SEES THE RB BEING CUT UP
9) at that point sees the RB destroyed. BARKER IS IN THE DONGA THIS IS AROUND 12:15PM

Sorry Mate, doesnt work

FRANK HOW CAN YOU SAY IT DOES NOT WORK DONT YOU BELIEVE BARKERS TESTIMONY ? THE POINTS YOU MADE ONE TO NINE HAPPEN FROM AROUND 10:30 AM TO AROUND 12:15PM ALMOST 2 HOURS PLENTY OF TIME FOR IT TO HAPPEN

I BELIEVE BARKERS TESTIMONY WHAT IN BARKERS TESTIMONY DONT YOU BELIEVE ?
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyWed Apr 08, 2020 12:11 pm

Hi Aussie
I think we need to agree to disagree. Barkers testimony is fraught with errors in terms of distance but otherwise is very believable. Its your interpretation that I have difficulty with Im afraid.
Regards
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PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT - Page 2 EmptyFri Apr 10, 2020 7:50 am

Hi Frank

Yes we have a different opinion, I was surprised when you open this topic The end of TMFHT, Barkers statement that proves he is near Itusi when he sights Raw's and Robert's troops on his extreme left and then hears the first gunshots clearly proves where the Zulus were discovered that day in visaul sight of Trooper Barker and we know he was close to his vidette position he was returning to. What I may do is place a time line confirming Barkers movements with his testimony { The start of TMFHT } from the time he discovers the zulu army hidden behind a hill to the time he hears the first Gunshots its not a matter of interpretation. Trooper Barker is the only person outside the group of discoverers who we know were he was {near Itusi } when the first gunshots were fired. I may have some free time over this Easter break. Thanks Frank and keep safe.
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