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 Mainwaring 1879 map.

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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySat Oct 28, 2023 11:03 pm

Hi

On the Novemeber 1879 map by Lt Mainwaring there appears to be a track heading North behind the camp lines, across the front of Isandlwana

Its also shown, with a slight variation on the 1933 map.

Is this something to do with the later church?

Thanks

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 4:55 am

Sime Ive always assumed it was the track worn by the waggons rather than a road to somewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 6:05 am

Interestingly enough Lt M has the 'track' heading straight up the Nqutu plateau (the T spur) then veering slightly NNW and off his mapped area.

The reason I ask is because I initially thought as you - it was a route worn by the wagons and if so I thought it would give me an indication of where the screen slope/hill side first became easy for waggons to move along.

As a 12 year old kid, my dad bought me the Silver Wreath for Christmas.....a very strange book in hindsight (for a 12 year old kid - not many pictures) but I have never managed to get my hands on the HotS

The St Augustine's/Vincent's mission was founded in 'late 79 early 80' - Lt M did his map in November 79 - makes you wonder....

Cheers

Sime
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 8:28 am

I've always assumed that this dottedline represents the 'route of Raw and Roberts's Troops' in much the same way that 'route of [Durnford's] Native Basutos' is shown.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 8:34 am

Sime although the map is dated November the survey was done in September
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 8:40 am

It was indeed done in September.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 9:14 am

Hiya both

I haven't got of very high definition image of the map but when squinting in the daylight the line is dotted.

It's strange that as far as I can see there are no other troop movements shown (apart from AWDs incorrect route alongthe track) - it would appear that the map was done to show the topography and position of cairns & main groups of bodies.

However, no other map or account seems to indicate a route.

It's perhaps that Lt M omitted to put a note on the line.

I wonder why he hints at a movement to the NNW rather than to the NNE/NE?

Thanks

Sime



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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 9:25 am

To show uncertainty...?
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 9:38 am

Unless of course it shows the 'advance of Zulus' as elsewhere on the map...that would explain the NNW origin!
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 10:10 am

Funnily enough the 1933 map, shows a route very similar to the one on the Lt M map, leading to the church....

Why did they build the church there - a high point maybe?

Logically either the church was built along this track or the track is there because of the church.....

If (yeah one of my 'ifs') there was some kind of native track heading across Isandlwana hill, it may have encouraged picking that as a location - to make it easier for the regimental transport etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 10:19 am

Have a look at the colour of the ink used to denote this track. Is it the same as the colour used to show 'advance of the Zulus' or 'route of Native Basutos' or the tracks? They do appear to be colour-coded.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 4:30 pm

I’m not sure if I’m thinking about the same map, but I can’t find Hlobane on it. Was the mountain called or spelt differently?
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 4:37 pm

Dick,

The mountain in this case was iSandlwana.

If you followed the present roads about 115 kms from Hlobane.

JY

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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 5:00 pm

A reasonably-reproduced colour copy of Mainwaring's map appears in The Noble 24th.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 5:09 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
A reasonably-reproduced colour copy of Mainwaring's map appears in The Noble 24th.

Thank you, I've been looking through my books but hadn't got to that one yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 5:11 pm

Opposite the title page!
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 5:31 pm

Thanks, I think that's Penn Symonds map though?

I must have got the economy version....🙂
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 11:06 pm

Sorry!
My mistake. That is Penn Symons's map. Wrong book!
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 11:19 pm

Could it be simply a track subsequently formed by Sept which the burial parties had 'created' by their comings and goings?
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 11:39 pm

It's in the Historical Records of the 24th.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 7:51 am

There were a number of Kraals in the 'valley' where that track ends. It could be feasible that it was a traders track leading of the main west east track. Between the saddle and the end of the camp there would have been quite a lot of traffic, wagons etc but the map show the extention going up to the edge of the plateau. 
Again a possibility would be that track was used to line up the tents?

It isnt marked on his original site sketch, if thats any help
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 8:34 am

That surely gives an indication that it was of recent-ish creation, no? June-Sep?
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 9:45 am

I'm not sure how long a track would be evident in the ground, if it was made by a number (even large number) of wagons over a brief period of time in January, even if 'topped up' by subsequent burial parties, grass regrowth etc,

If the 'track' stopped a the end of the camp area, it would be fairly conclusive....if it went in a dead straight line, then faded out up the spur, one could assume that Lt M assumed it went up there, but he has shown it deviating slightly.

I am starting to believe the track was pre 79 and was used to make setting up the camp easier - moving waggons etc.

It was obviously prominent enough for Lt M to record it amongst all the evidence of comings and goings that year.

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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 3:39 pm

John Young wrote:
Dick,

The mountain in this case was iSandlwana.

If you followed the present roads about 115 kms from Hlobane.

JY


Thanks, I think I’m looking at a different map. The map I was thinking about was “ the Intelligence Branch of the Quartermaster General’s Department of the British Army and dated 21st May 1879”
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 6:51 pm

I've managed to download a decent image of Lt Ms map.

In the key, he writes "many single bodies lie along the road at head of the camp, as far as B" (which is the furthest extent of the camp lines - the NNIC camp)

It still does not prove that it was pre 79....but I could believe that possibly the wagons tracks from January could be mistook as a 'road' but I do not think the track would have been too obvious, heading up the Spur, if from waggons associated with burial parties - I'm not sure there was too much to bury on the plateau.

Plus if you look at the 'road' it is not adjacent to the Mounted camp but slightly West of the camp

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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyTue Oct 31, 2023 5:12 am

The track could not have got onto the plateau without a massive amount of difficulty. I doubt any wagons could have got up there without using the same technique used by the Boer at
the Drakensburg. Double team, reverse the wheels, big to the front small to the back and an empty load..Simon at best the track would have got into the valley close to the church area.
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyFri Nov 03, 2023 4:51 pm

John Young wrote:
Dick,

The mountain in this case was iSandlwana.

If you followed the present roads about 115 kms from Hlobane.

JY


This was the map I was thinking about. Any chance you can pick out Hlobane?


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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyFri Nov 03, 2023 5:12 pm

I can find Kambula but I am struggling to find Hlobane.

It should be East(ish) of Kambula,  somewhere towards the north of the 'Z' of Zululand

Sorry
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyFri Nov 03, 2023 5:35 pm

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Modern map showing location relative to Kambula
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyFri Nov 03, 2023 6:16 pm

Sorry Dick,

My eyes cannot cope with the definition on that map. Unfortunately I cannot get to my own material due building here at present.

JY
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PostSubject: Mainwaring Map 1879   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySat Nov 04, 2023 8:15 am

Sorry Dick your map is far to small to make anything out , let alone Hlobane .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptySat Nov 04, 2023 8:45 am

There is a high definition one on the Internet but Hlobane is still not marked.

There are other places marked that I could probably triangulate Hlobane, comparing with other maps- if that would help.

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: Mainwaring 1879 map.   Mainwaring 1879 map. EmptyWed Nov 29, 2023 7:38 pm

I've been looking at Google earth and I think the track shown on Mainwaring map is visible and that a modern (?) track or path follows its route.

I sort of lose it after the path is 'overwritten' by the modern road but hope to find it (or marks of it) again up the Spur.

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Obviously the old track ran to the hill side of colonial cemetery and it may be evident running west from the cemetery.

Ideally I need to find some evidence that the Mainwaring Track influenced Clery (?) in picking the hill as a location for the camp - in addition to securing the rear etc 

Henry Flynn advocated camping on the flat about 2 miles further on.

Cheers
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Mainwaring 1879 map.
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