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 Hamilton Browne's birthday

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Julian Whybra




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Hamilton Browne's birthday Empty
PostSubject: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptySun Jun 09, 2024 7:20 pm

Usually Hamilton Bowne's birth is given as between 1848 and 1851 in Ireland. However Knight and Greaves in an essay state his birthday was 22.12.1844 and a birth of someone of that name was registered in the Jan-Mar Qtr 1845 vol. 11, p. 233 in Cheltenham. I have not bought the certificate but I assume that the exact date entry will be correct.
However, what I don't know is whether that George Hamilton Browne was THE George Hamilton Browne of AZW fame. It's an unusual name combination so the likelihood of there being two men of that name is unlikely.
That notwithstanding, his marriage certificate states he was 60 in 1909 indicating a birth year of 1848/9 and I have another source which gives his birthday as 9th January. This comes from someone who celebrated his birthday with the man himself.
I wondered whether anyone has done any research into George's birth circumstances and can confirm (by pm if preferred) a day / month / year. The source of the information would be ideal.
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rai




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyMon Jun 10, 2024 9:26 am

Hi Julian,
B.9 Jan 1851 F.George Browne of 35 Coomber Hse, Clancy, Londonderry, Ireland, mother Susanna Hilton.
1861 census he is at his grandfathers Thomas Hilton add The Polygon Ardwick Lancs, gives George's birth as Germany. He was at Cheltenham School newspaper report.
There is marriage in Pittsburgh USA 18 April 1882 to Miss Anna Eva Aushutz she born 1852 he 1850 not 100% this is George but he did go to the USA.
Death Record Londonderry Sentinal 3 Jan 1888, Oct 31 1887 at Beaconsfield Kimberley 6 Nov 1887 Cecil and Hannah the son and daughter of Major george Hamilton-Browne and grand children of the late Major Browne of comber Hse Cty Derry.
Morning Leader 31 Dec 1908 and Cambridge Independent Jan 1 1909 both run stories on his military service and his marriage on 31 Dec 1908 to Sarah Wallis Wilkinson at St John's Hackney, these report he fought the Sioux at Fort Dodge USA, and that he was out of work being helped by the Salvation Army Sarah met him after a fried had served in the Zulu War, this was supposed to be her fiancee and he was saved by George.
11 Feb 1916 Evening Mail, Col G H Browne late Commandant in South Africa Colonial Service, died in a nursing home in Jamaica on 28 Jan, he was the eldest son of the late Major George Browne late 44th Regt of Cumber Lononderry [then gives war service].
Rai KLH
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rai




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyMon Jun 10, 2024 9:29 am

missed the n in friend sarah's fiancee who was this friend???
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rai




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyMon Jun 10, 2024 9:33 am

Think about his birth date UK census records are nortorius for being a year out so the birth date could be 9 Jan 1850. the 1861 gives 1851 Germany.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyMon Jun 10, 2024 2:21 pm

Rai
Wonderful. Thank you. I was looking for corroboration of 9 Jan to validate the account I'm reading. And it does. In style. Thanks again.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyTue Jun 18, 2024 8:59 am

Rai
Can I ask you whether you have any documentary evidence saying he was born specifically in the town of Londonderry on 9.1.1851? You can pm me if you wish.
Julian
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rai




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyTue Jun 18, 2024 10:26 pm

Hi Julien,
There is another thread on the website that gives Hamilton-Browne being born in Bonn Germany, the reference being New Zealand Biographical Records, i can't find my reference for his DoB but it is probably a newspaper.
regards rai.
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krish




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyTue Jun 18, 2024 11:27 pm

The first born son was George Hamilton Browne was born in 1844, however he died in 1845.  Then a few children later, they named another son the same name.  Georg Hamilton Browne born in January 1851 in Germany.  The family seat was Londonderry. They were an influential and aristocratic family.

George went from New Zealand to South Africa where he married in 1879.  

The "fiancée" of his wife, was pure imagination or media hype. She was 10 in 1879, not quite the age to be engaged.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 7:02 am

Hi

Any ideas why George Browne and Susanna were in Bonn?

Also I have been trying to find the date of death of George 1 but cannot find it - I have assumed it was after Sidney Browne being born but before GHB being born (around about 1850) - assuming Sidney was not Sydney (of course)

Additionally I believe the missing 'e' in George to be either a spelling mistake or the fashion of records in those days.

Thank you
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 9:01 am

Between Simon, Kris, Rai and myself we have come up with information showing that GHB's father retired from the army on 17.5.1850 AND a contemporary German birth register entry in Bonn on 9.1.1851 naming his parents in full.
The reason for the family's being in Germany at this time none of us have found.  Perhaps it was for a 'Kur' which were popular at the time or a sort of late Grand Tour, popularized because of Albert.
Georg is simply German for George and would have been entered that way by the Bonn clerk.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 9:44 am

Simon & Kris
Despite the possibility that GHB was acting on behalf of his father's business interests in Germany, I cannot imagine that even the intrepid GHB would take his heavily-pregnant wife to Bonn on a business trip.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 10:01 am

No possibly not, unfortunately George Browne (Snr) is 'missing in action' (as far as the records we have) from May 1850 until Jan 51 - perhaps she was not that 'far gone' when they went to Bonn? - May to Jan is 8 months.....

Sadly majority of the census records from Ireland are missing/destroyed, including the 1851 one.

We know George was a JP but not from what date

John Young also helped with the Military Records.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 10:15 am

Newspaper obituaries are the next step in looking for GHB's deceased brother George.
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krish




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 11:18 pm

Name George Brown
Death Age 5/12
Record Type Burial
Birth Date abt 1844
Death Date 1845
Burial Date 17 Aug. 1845
Burial Place St Marylebone, Westminster, England
Register Type Parish Register


Appears to be first George Died aged 5.5 months of age
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 5:03 am

Hi Kris/Julian

I noticed this entry, when I was searching but are we sure this is the George Brown(e) and not any 'old' George Brown?

The things that concerns me is the surname difference (having spent many years researching 'Browns') and the place of burial.

We know that GHB1 was born in Cheltenham but was there a Westminster connection?

Thanks

Simon
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krish




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 7:14 am

Not off the top of my head, but later in 1860 they were living at 3 Gloucester Place in Paddington.  He spelt his name Browne, others spelt it differently.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 8:22 am

This is strange, I've actually found the family living in London in 1861......
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 8:40 am

I don't think it can be the eldest child. If the father was determined to have a son named after him, why didn't he do so with the next one after 'George' died in 1845. Why wait till 1851?
I do wonder whether the elusive death of George the eldest might be found 'at sea', en route to, or somewhere in, Germany, prompting the naming of the new baby after him?
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 8:49 am

I've found two HBs (Hamilton and Sarah) living with their aunty in 1851....

I don't think George died until 1929.....

Sent you a couple of photos on email.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 8:53 am

Well...it did happen that a family give two children the same forename (especially if one was to be known by his middle name). There are two instances in my own family in the 19th century.
I see no reason why both Georges shouldn't have lived happily ever after.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 9:06 am

That's what I'm starting to believe.

GHB1 was known as Hamilton and GHB2 as George.

I think if GHB1 did die (which I now doubt) he died after Sidney was born (1850) and before GHB2 was born (1851)

But that's only my theory.....we couldn't afford an 'e' in our name
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 5:09 pm

The family had either 12 or 13 children - depending if George Hamilton Browne (1) and Hamilton Browne are one and the same person.

I have found birth years for all of the children and death dates for majority of them except GHB1, who is a mystery, at the moment.

It doesn't help matters that some of them seemed to change the order of their names eg William Lecky Hamilton Browne changed his name to William Hamilton Browne-Lecky.

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 5:14 pm

GBH1 was born in Cheltenham in 1844 and christened there the following year.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 5:32 pm

GBH1 - What is that Grievous Bodily Harm?
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 5:41 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
GBH1 was born in Cheltenham in 1844 and christened there the following year.

I have the birthdate/location for George the 1st but I'm stuck on his death date or any information about him post 1844/45

There is info in the censuses/records for all the rest of the tribe apart from GHB1, which makes me think he might be Hamilton Browne.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 10:55 pm

Remember that there are two separate births for Geo Hamilton Browne, one in 1844 Cheltenham, the other 1851 in Bonn, both with the same parents. Subsequent censuses record both so there were definitely the two of them.
Later censuses and marriage records showing age indicate that it is the second of these that was the AZW man.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 5:32 am

Hi Julian

Undoubtedly there were two GHBs and as you say the second one (Herr Browne) was the AZW one, which answers your original query.

But from a personal interest (which has come from this) there is no record of GHB1 anywhere (that I have found) apart from his birth.

A 'Hamilton' Browne suddenly appears in records and censuses (as early as 1851 -  living with his aunt - he never made the trip to Germany obviously.

This HB was born around the same time as GHB1 - according to census dates but AFAIK there is no birth or christening records for a ''HB'

It's possible that GHB1 and HB were Irish twins (I think they are called?) except for there is no evidence of GHB1 dying young.

To my mind, the reason why there was no problem with two GBHs in one family (as you say similar things happened in your own family) is that GHB1 was for all intents known as Hamilton, to such a degree he called himself it in later census forms.

Cheers

Simon
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 8:04 am

Simon
When you wrote that there is no record of GHB1 anywhere, why are you discounting the 1861 census listing him as simply 'Hamilton' aged 15, at the head of all his siblings placed in order?
Yes, I am sure that your last statement is correct, absolutely. To distinguish the two Georges, the elder one was called by his middle name.
To all intents and purposes the birth of 'our' GHB is solved: 9.1.1851, Bonn.
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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 8:18 am

Just a thought, George Hamilton Browne (The Great Pretender) allegedly entered Sandhurst in 1870 as a Gentleman Cadet. If that is fact surely his details have been entered in some sort of ledger there?

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 8:45 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
Simon
When you wrote that there is no record of GHB1 anywhere, why are you discounting the 1861 census listing him as simply 'Hamilton' aged 15, at the head of all his siblings placed in order?
Yes, I am sure that your last statement is correct, absolutely.  To distinguish the two Georges, the elder one was called by his middle name.
To all intents and purposes the birth of 'our' GHB is solved: 9.1.1851, Bonn.

Hi Julian

I'm not actually discounting HB as GHB - to the contrary I actually said that I believed it he was him - I actually, thought I'd 'found' HB.

However, I said there is no evidence of GHB1 in any records after his birth/christening because there is not actual evidence (by his given name)...it's (strong) supposition that these two people GHB1 and HB are one and the same.

Actually it's a pity that GHB1/HB weren't GHB2 - that would have added an interesting slant to Maori's story.

I still want to find out why one of his sister's was baptised in Stafford......maybe I should add an 'e' to my name......

Cheers

Sime




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SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1225
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Hamilton Browne's birthday Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 8:51 am

John Young wrote:
Just a thought, George Hamilton Browne (The Great Pretender) allegedly entered Sandhurst in 1870 as a Gentleman Cadet.  If that is fact surely his details have been entered in some sort of ledger there?

JY

GHB(2) attended Sandhurst, the records show him as Cadet Browne in 1869 and leaving in 1870.

There will obviously be more detailed records but it's not really of much concern because we know when he was born (Julian's original query)

I'm just hoping to write a book "The Staffordshire Hamilton Browne's and Biscuit Making".....


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Julian Whybra




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Location : Billericay, Essex

Hamilton Browne's birthday Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hamilton Browne's birthday   Hamilton Browne's birthday EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am

Sim(e)
The -e is there already!
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