Chard the Chilled

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:04 am

Scheiss exposed himself to danger in crawling over/along the barricade to kill a zulu that had got into a position to kill other defenders. Ergo he put his life on the line to protect his companions.
Marshall found himself cut of and killed, bayoneted, three zulus and extricated himself from a difficult situation.
What have I missed?

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

In 1913 when ex-private Caleb Wood recalled the actions of that day, he stated:

"When the Zulu’s became thick round the hospital, one soldier named Marshall, whom we all regarded as abit peculiar, and different from the rest of us, stood his ground for a second or two while we were taking our position ten yards away. We shouted come on silly ….! When he saw where we were he turned about and came, but at the risk of his life, for he was followed by the enemy.

Quote :

Hastily turning around with his fixed bayonet, he brought down three Zulus with the point of guard

."

Quote :: Scheiss exposed himself to danger

And the reason was to fetch his hat.

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:30 am

springbok9 wrote:: Take it into context.
He got a VC and was recognised for his bravery under attack. Its only been in later years that modern authors have given credence to the part he played in the planing and leadership before the attack.
That is the point i attempted to make.
Ive seen the Blue Peter badge on photos of Chelmsford, just above the award for passing the buck.

oh great comeback !! :lol!:

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

And what about Private Joseph Williams who reportably held a small window at the far end of the Hospital and 14 dead Zulus were found later benneth the window Again not spoken of much in the Histroy Books.

Subject: Chard the chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:39 am

hi ctsg.
I dont understand what points you are trying to make scratch

. Scheiss , Marshall and Williams were doing what they
had to do to stay alive . As were the other 155 ish . If I remember correctly didnt Scheiss opt to sit on the barricade to get
a better field of fire , therefore exposing himself needlessly resulting in his hat being shot off his head ?. And when attempting
to recover it bayoneted a couple of zulu's and shot another ?. This is off the top of my head its nearly bed time for me :lol!: .
Williams was doing what was expected which was to shoot zulu's !!!!!!!!!. Managed 14 or so before they dragged him outside
and butchered him like a sunday roast ( No disrespect meant or inferred ) . Marshall simply in the wrong spot at the right time
and managed to extracate himself before going under !. So as I said what is your point and what are you aiming at ???. Please
feel free to enlighten me along with the rest of us Idea

.
cheers 90th :lol:

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:41 pm

The only place I can see this going is a campaign for a VC for Douglas Baders false leg maker, on the grounds that he was responsible for that amazing mans bravery.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

The point i'm trying to make, is all the talk about VC winners. Springbok say's

Quote :: Scheiss exposed himself to danger in crawling over/along the barricade to kill a zulu that had got into a position to kill other defenders

Private Joseph Williams was defending the men in the hospital, Scheiss was awarded a V.C for getting his hat back (See the difference)

Marshall stood his ground, killing three Zulus a point of Bayonet.

90th you say

Quote :: "Scheiss , Marshall and Williams were doing what they had to do to stay alive"

Unfortunately Joseph Williams was seized; dragged outside and stabbed with assegais he died protecting others.

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:02 pm

.....for getting his hat back. Far to simplistic. Read the naratives properly.
Lt William Weallans evidence suggests that Joseph Williams was in a room on his own and was killed by the Zulu while trying to escape.
John Williams left no account of the fight so the story of him being dragged out comes second hand from Hook, who seemingly heard it from Williams. The only certain thing is he was found outside the building.
No doubt what so ever that he was a brave man no matter how he was killed. However it would become difficult to award a VC purely on rumour, look at the furor over M & C ! So to go before the chief of the army and request a medal without knowing the full facts would have been a no go.
Marshall was shear self preservation. Hardly 'Bravery beyond the call of duty".

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:14 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

The point i'm trying to make, is all the talk about VC winners. Springbok say's

Quote :: Scheiss exposed himself to danger in crawling over/along the barricade to kill a zulu that had got into a position to kill other defenders

Private Joseph Williams was defending the men in the hospital, Scheiss was awarded a V.C for getting his hat back (See the difference)

Marshall stood his ground, killing three Zulus a point of Bayonet.

90th you say

Quote :: "Scheiss , Marshall and Williams were doing what they had to do to stay alive"

Unfortunately Joseph Williams was seized; dragged outside and stabbed with assegais he died protecting others.

At that time VC's were only awarded to the living - it was not posthumous until 1907...so John Williams who survived was awarded a VC but Joseph Williams was not.

And Scheiss was not awarded for getting his hat back, he was awarded for going outside the 'Biscuit box' barricade to the abandoned barricade to 'take on' the Zulu's who were using it as cover and making the corner - where the 'mealie bag' barricade and the 'biscuit box' barricade met - untenable for the British, this action was well within the scope for the award - he went well beyond the limits of his duty.

Cheers

Aidan

Posts : 600 Join date : 2010-01-07 Location : UK

Hi
The first posthumous VC was awarded in 1900 to Lieutenant Hon F. H. S. Roberts in the King’s Royal Rifle Corps during the Boer War

thanks joe

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:06 pm

Interesting debate. Although not possible I personally feel that every defender at Rorkes Drift deserved the V.C nearly 15 hours of continuous fighting with odds against.

Quote :: And Scheiss was not awarded for getting his hat back, he was awarded for going outside the 'Biscuit box' barricade to the abandoned barricade to 'take on' the Zulu's who were using it as cover and making the corner - where the 'mealie bag' barricade and the 'biscuit box' barricade met - untenable for the British, this action was well within the scope for the award - he went well beyond the limits of his duty.

Scheiss earned his medal without doubt. But would he have lived if the other defenders hadn’t covered him during this action. Rorkes Drift was won due to team effort.

Subject: Chard the chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:17 pm

hi joe .
I think you will find that LT. Roberts was the son of Lord Roberts if I'm not mistaken . That action was attempting to save the guns ?.
cheers 90th.

Subject: Chard the chilled Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:19 pm

hi pete.
I couldnt agree more , a team effort which saved the day and themselves Idea

.
cheers 90th.

Posts : 187 Join date : 2010-02-04

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

In 1913 when ex-private Caleb Wood recalled the actions of that day, he stated:

"When the Zulu’s became thick round the hospital, one soldier named Marshall, whom we all regarded as abit peculiar, and different from the rest of us, stood his ground for a second or two while we were taking our position ten yards away. We shouted come on silly ….! When he saw where we were he turned about and came, but at the risk of his life, for he was followed by the enemy.

Quote :

Hastily turning around with his fixed bayonet, he brought down three Zulus with the point of guard

."

Quote :: Scheiss exposed himself to danger

And the reason was to fetch his hat.

Do you have any links the rest of this interview?

thanks

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:52 am

Admin wrote:

Interesting debate. Although not possible I personally feel that every defender at Rorkes Drift deserved the V.C nearly 15 hours of continuous fighting with odds against.

Quote :: And Scheiss was not awarded for getting his hat back, he was awarded for going outside the 'Biscuit box' barricade to the abandoned barricade to 'take on' the Zulu's who were using it as cover and making the corner - where the 'mealie bag' barricade and the 'biscuit box' barricade met - untenable for the British, this action was well within the scope for the award - he went well beyond the limits of his duty.

Scheiss earned his medal without doubt. But would he have lived if the other defenders hadn’t covered him during this action. Rorkes Drift was won due to team effort.

Absolutely agree with both your points here Admin

Cheers

Aidan

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:22 am

Without a doubt Pete.
However, where does one draw the line? What constitutes 'Beyond the call of duty', Your a soldier your job is to lay down your life if required in defence of your countries interests. you make that decision when you sign on the dotted line.
To get a 'gong' is a tad more than that.
I understand where CTSG is going with his point but I dont think that fine line can be drawn any closer than the phrase above, what constitutes that is a judgement call based on the officers present at the time.
So would standing in a barricade with plenty of your mates around you blazing away like crazy constitute your job discription? Or would hand to hand fighting, hacking through a wall to save your mates untill your hands are stripped of skin be comparable.
Just some thoughts to add to the discusion.

Regards

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: And what about Private Joseph Williams who reportably held a small window at the far end of the Hospital.

For once i seem to agree with CTSG Idea

Cheers

Posts : 187 Join date : 2010-02-04

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Should have posted this earlier.

Copy of Major Spalding D.A.A.G's Report.

3. We advanced as far as Varmaaks with the troops. I then pushed on to the foot of the Berg, accompanied by Mr. Dickson, of the Buffalo Border Guard. The road was covered with fugitives, chiefly Basutos and people in civilians' clothes, but there were one or two mounted Infantry. Several of these I ordered to accompany me, but all, except two, slipped away when my back was turned.
My-object was to ascertain whether the post at Rorke's Drift still held out. In this case I should have sent word to Major Upcher to advance and endeavour to throw myself into it.
4. But every single white fugitive asserted that the Mission-house was captured; and at about 3 miles from the same I came across a body of Zulus in extended order across the road. They were 50 yards off— a deep (ravine) donga was behind them, capable of concealing a large force. They threw out flankers as if to surround the party.
Mr. Dickson agreed with me that they were Zulu, an opinion soon borne out by the " horns " which they threw out. So we trotted back to the troops some two miles in rear.

Hi

I thought that the defenders saw the relief colum? If they were five miles away surely they would not have seen them??

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Who were the other two fugitives, who stated that RD had fallen?

"Hector Grant arrived at Rorke's Drift he had lost most of his equipment and his morale was, understandably, at a very low ebb. In vain he tried to warn the Rorke's Drift garrison of the terrible danger they were in. They ignored his warning and, perhaps realising the effect a demoralised soldier can have on his fellow troops, sent Private Grant to Helpmekaar where there was a detachment of British troops under Major Spalding.
But Major Spalding had already been appraised of the danger to Rorke's Drift and was leading two companies there. About three miles from his destination Major Spalding met some of the fugitives heading towards Helpmekaar, among them Private Grant. These men the Major ordered to join him and return to Rorke's Drift.
A mile further on, Spalding's troop noticed an ominous column of black smoke rising into the blue African sky. A moment later two more fugitives appeared with a report that the post at Rorke's Drift had fallen to the Zulus. The logic of the situation seemed irrefutable: Major Spalding took his two companies, Private Hector Grant included, back to Helpmekaar, certain that the little garrison at Rorke's Drift had all perished. The truth was dramatically different, however, and Spalding's retreat from Rorke's Drift may, perhaps, have denied Caithness a Victoria Cross.

Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:09 am

Cisko
There is a view across the plain for a considerable distance. So coming to the foot of the mountain Spalding would have been able to see the flames. The troops themselves stopped at Vermaaks, a fair distance back up the mountain and out of line of site.
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Cheers

Subject: Chard the chilled Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Hi Springy .
Please excuse my ignorance , but , what are the names of the two mountains in the middle of the picture , is one of then Shiyane ? . scratch

Cheers 90th.

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:25 pm

90th
The mountain /hill left central is Shiyane. There is a faint line of trees in the middle distance going from left to right, that is the road from RD up to Helpmakaar, the main hills to the right are the Biggarsberg heights. So Spalding would have come down of the heights and seen the smoke at the foot of Shiyane.
The photo is taken from the RD/Dundee road.
Hope that helps.

Cheers

Subject: Chard The Chilled Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:34 pm

Thanks Springy , appreciate your prompt reply . I really do need to get over there dont I ! . Rolling Eyes

Hope all is well mate and your going along nicely .
Cheers 90th.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

I take it no one knows the names of the two chaps that told Spalding RD at fallen!

The question is, Would he have continued on, if they hadn't told him RD was taken?

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:19 pm

Chard
I think he did continue and turned back when he ran into a zulu impi.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:20 pm

90th
Beers are cold!

Salute

Subject: Chard the chilled Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:33 am

I'll bet they are Springy ! Wink

90th

Subject: Re: Chard the Chilled Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:41 pm

I wonder if Spalding ever regretted leaving RD based on him missing out on a VC.?