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 Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard

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DundeeBoer
Younghusband
Mr Greaves
Eric
tasker224
24th
Frank Allewell
ciscokid
impi
littlehand
90th
Drummer Boy 14
sas1
Chard1879
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptySun Jan 02, 2011 11:34 pm

Private Waters, wounded in the arm, hid in a cupboard and then succeeded in melting into the darkness outside, camouflaging himself with the Revd Witt’s long black cloak. Could this not be considered as dersertion or misbehaviour before the enermy. Based on the fact that quite a few of the other defenders that were wounded, still made it to the fire lines with their mates and fought on until the Zulu’s retreated. What would have happen if all the wounded had done the same a Pte Waters.

Just a thought ??? Idea
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptySun Jan 02, 2011 11:54 pm

Private J. Waters, also of the 1st Bn., and a special orderly in the hospital, recounted the events of that night in The Cambrian (13thy June, 1879):

"Between half past four and five, as near as I can remember, the Zulus came over the hill and I saw about fifty of them form a line in skirmishing orders.They came about twenty yards, and then opened fire on the hospital. Some of them came in and set fire to it. While I was there I took refuge in a cupboard, and Private Beckett, an invalid, came with me. As they were going out I killed many of them, and as I could not stay there long, the place being suffocating, I put on a black cloak which I found in the cupboard, and which must have belonged to Mr. Witt (a Reverend who whose mission was based at Rorke's Drift), and ran out in the long grass and lay down. The Zulus must have thought I was one of their dead comrades, as they were all round about me, and some trod on me.

Beckett had gone out half an hour before me, and he, poor fellow, was assegaied right through his stomach, and went into laager the next morning. Dr. Reynolds did all he could to save him, but did not succeed... Poor Beckett was buried next morning properly. Round the hospital dead Zulus were piled high."

Major J.R.M. Chard, V.C., also described Beckett's fate in his account written at the request of Queen Victoria:

"Private Beckett...was badly wounded with assegais in running through the enemy. He managed to get away and conceal himself in the ditch of the Garden, where we found him next morning. The poor fellow was so weak from loss of blood that he could not walk, and he died shortly thereafter."

Private William Beckett is commemorated on the monument at Rorke's Drift and his relatives claimed his effects.


So to answer your question:
Quote :
Could this not be considered as dersertion or misbehaviour before the enermy
No I don't think it could. What else could he have done apart from died.
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyMon Jan 03, 2011 12:14 am

Chard's report to Queen Victoria

"During the fight there were some very narrow escapes from the burning hospital. Private Waters, 24th Regiment, told me that he had secreted himself in a cupboard in the room he was defending, and from it shot several Zulus inside the hospital. He was wounded in the arm, and he remained in the cupboard until the heat and smoke were so great that they threatened to suffocate him. Wrapping himself in a cloak, or skirt of a dress he found in the cupboard, he rushed out into the darkness and made his way into the cookhouse. The Zulus were occupying this, and firing at us from the wall nearest us. It was too late to retreat, so he crept softly to the fireplace and, standing up in the chimney, blacked his face and hands with the soot. He remained there until the Zulus left. He was very nearly shot in coming out, one of our men at the wall raising his rifle to do so at the sight of his black face and strange costume, but Waters cried out just in time to save himself. He produced the bullet that wounded him, with pardonable pride, and was very amusing in his admiring description of Dr. Reynold's skill in extracting it."

So to answer your question:
Quote :
Could this not be considered as dersertion or misbehaviour before the enermy
No. He used his Initiative to survive.

Would have been a sad tail if he had been killed by friendly fire after going through all that.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyMon Sep 26, 2011 6:20 pm

Definatly not what else could he have done???
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90th

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PostSubject: Private Waters , Hid in the cupboard .   Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Sep 28, 2011 1:10 am

Hi all .
The old saying '' Discretion is the better part of Valour '' springs to mind here . Would have taken a lot of guts to even hide in the
cupboard because if the zulu opened it he was a goner !! and that would certainly be playing on your mind I would think .
cheers 90th.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 9:05 pm

I think Mike Snooks theroy is right.

They didn`t hide in a cuboard it was a cloak room, makes much more sence.


Cheers
DB14

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 10:04 pm

Quote :
cloak room
. That would be right. Didn't he find a black cloak belonging to Witt.
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 10:10 pm

Littlehand, Have you read Mike Snooks book???

Anyway, yes he found Witts cloak and dashed out into the night to hide.

I think Snook has it right when he says that the " cupboard " was in fact a cloak room.

It makes sence, how did 2 men fit in a cupboard, and manage to fire rifles that are over 4 foot in lenth???

It doesn`t add up, so i beleive Mike Snook is right in what he says.

Cheers
DB14

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 10:17 pm

Quote :
Littlehand, Have you read Mike Snooks book???

No. I think I have said before, I don't hold much faith in the modern books, I tend to stick with the books that were written shortly after the Zulu War. And by those that took part.

But saying that I don't know how old Mike Snook is. Idea
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90th

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PostSubject: Private Waters , Hid in the cupboard .   Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 10:24 pm

Hi Littlehand .
:lol!: , Mike Snook isnt that old !. :lol!: :lol!: . Hope that was meant to be a joke Idea . If so
it's a cracker . :lol: . If not , well .......................
cheers 90th. Idea
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 11:01 pm

You can always expect one chucked in by Littlehand. Shocked
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ciscokid




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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 11:33 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Littlehand .
:lol!: , Mike Snook isnt that old !. :lol!: :lol!: . Hope that was meant to be a joke Idea . If so
it's a cracker . :lol: . If not , well .......................
cheers 90th. Idea

ditto!!! :lol!:
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 9:34 am

If Cloak Room is a euphormism for a toilet/bathroom then Snook is wrong. There was no plumbing fascilities indoors. Cloakroom as in a dressing room? I doubt that it would be so as there was no internal link to a bedroom. if it was a place where clothes were stored it would be a store room, no?

Therefore back to it being a cupboard..
His statement reads: "I put on a black cloak that I found in the cupboard".

Hope that helps

Regards.
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24th

24th


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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 12:21 pm

Quote :
Quote :
A cloakroom, or sometimes coatroom, is a room for people to hang their cloaks. They are typically found inside large buildings, such as gymnasiums, schools, churches or meeting
halls.

This is the English version. Not sure what it would be know as in SA.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 12:29 pm

24th
Thats interesting, but this was a private house (turned into a hospital by the regiment) would it still apply? And again its frontier stuff, would those niceties still be applied?

Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 12:30 pm

In SA it would be called a luxury :lol!:
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 7:22 pm

Major Anthony Deane-drummond DSO, MC and Bar:

"Deane-Drummond spotted a large cupboard and immediately dived into it. For no less than thirteen days he stood inside this cupboard, rationing himself on a few biscuits and sips of water, until the 5th October, when he was able to make good his escape."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Heroes such as he know when to fight, and know when to hide in a cupboard.
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Eric




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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 7:26 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Private Waters, wounded in the arm, hid in a cupboard and then succeeded in melting into the darkness outside, camouflaging himself with the Revd Witt’s long black cloak. Could this not be considered as dersertion or misbehaviour before the enermy. Based on the fact that quite a few of the other defenders that were wounded, still made it to the fire lines with their mates and fought on until the Zulu’s retreated. What would have happen if all the wounded had done the same a Pte Waters.

Just a thought ??? Idea

That is quite a judgement. What else was this private supposed to have done.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 7:36 pm

Eric wrote:
Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Private Waters, wounded in the arm, hid in a cupboard and then succeeded in melting into the darkness outside, camouflaging himself with the Revd Witt’s long black cloak. Could this not be considered as dersertion or misbehaviour before the enermy. Based on the fact that quite a few of the other defenders that were wounded, still made it to the fire lines with their mates and fought on until the Zulu’s retreated. What would have happen if all the wounded had done the same a Pte Waters.

Just a thought ??? Idea

That is quite a judgement. What else was this private supposed to have done.

I think CTSG is just asking the Q, not passing judgement Eric.
If I had been there, I would like to think that I would have behaved like Robert Jones and Henry Hook. Sadly, and I think far more likely, I would have been in the cupboard with Waters. However, either of the above 2 options would have been preferable to me, rather than being assegaied as happened to some of the unfortunate patients in the hospital.
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 8:03 pm

I do believe Gunner Howard also hid. But taking into consideration where they were at the time, they wouldn't have made back to the lines of defence. The fact they hid didn't seem to bother the other defenders.
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Younghusband

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 8:53 pm

I admit to not having read Snooks book, but looking at the floor plan in Bancroft's Rorkes Drift there is no cloakroom, the ability for at least a couple of the men to hide in a cupboard and fire through a gap in the door suggests that they were quite large.

Just received Zulu Rising, looking forward to a good read!
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyFri Nov 04, 2011 5:23 pm

Younghusband wrote:
I admit to not having read Snooks book, but looking at the floor plan in Bancroft's Rorkes Drift there is no cloakroom, the ability for at least a couple of the men to hide in a cupboard and fire through a gap in the door suggests that they were quite large.

Just received Zulu Rising, looking forward to a good read!

Zulu Rising is a wonderful book. I am about to start reading it for the second time.
Cupboard/cloakroom/closet/wardrobe - lost in translation perhaps, but they definitely hid somewhere. And who can blame them? No point in giving away your wicket cheaply.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyFri Nov 04, 2011 11:42 pm

More from Chards report.

"Gunner Howard, R.A., ran out of the burning hospital, through the enemy, and lay down on the upper side of the wall in front of our N parapet. The bodies of several horses that were killed early in the evening were lying here, and concealed by these and by Zulu bodies and the low grass and bushes, he remained unseen with the Zulus all around him until they left in the morning.

Private Becket, 24th Regiment, escaped from the hospital in the same direction, he was badly wounded with assegais in running through the enemy. He managed to get away and conceal himself in the ditch of the garden, where we found him the next morning. The poor fellow was so weak from loss of blood that he could not walk, and he died shortly afterwards."
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DundeeBoer

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Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptySat Nov 05, 2011 12:05 am

Display from inside the museum at Rorkes Drift

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Cheers, Jeff
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Younghusband

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptySat Nov 05, 2011 12:19 pm

It is clear that the Zulus did not attack the hospital/redoubt en masse - if they had surely the defenders may have been overwhelmed. There must have been lulls in the fighting and certainly there must have been times when the Zulus were focusing their attention to different parts of the site. Amidst the confusion, the attack probably taking place on the other side of the hopsital and the many dead bodies that must have occupied the verandah. A lone soldier, albeit with a huge amount of fortune, was able to rush out of the building and dive for cover.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptySat Nov 05, 2011 1:57 pm

Posted by Littlehand on another thread.

Stafford’s 1939 account in which details of their escape from Isandlwana was described related some details that Adendorff had recounted to him during a meeting. He wrote:

"I met Odendorff in 1883 and he told me that Rorke’s Drift was saved through two Godsends. The first was that the Zulus retired in the middle of the night,
apparently to hold a little consultation and that gave the garrison time to
strengthen the weak parts of the little fort, and the Martini Henry carbines time to cool off. The other was the Zulus setting fire to the thatch building which gave a bright light round the little fort and when the Zulus came volley after volley was poured into them
.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptySat Nov 05, 2011 2:01 pm

After the Battle, was it known where the biggest Zulu dead count was. Was in in and around the buildings, outside the perimeters inside the perimeter. Or was it not mentioned.
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Stefaan

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PostSubject: What happened to Private Waters?   Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Oct 18, 2023 10:37 am

Has anyone any idea what happened to Private Waters after the Zulu war? According to the newspapers of the time, being wounded, he came home with the "Tamar and was in Netley Hospital in june 1879 but after that??
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Oct 18, 2023 11:03 am

According to the Noble 24th, he was discharged from the army due to bring unfit for service (due to his shoulder wound), recieved an army pension and put his address down as in London.

He had a bit of a mixed military career being charged with neglect of duty a couple of times.

Waters was born about 10 miles from my home town.
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Stefaan

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PostSubject: Thanks for the Information SRB1965, much appreciated   Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyWed Oct 18, 2023 8:17 pm

SRB1965 wrote:
According to the Noble 24th, he was discharged from the army due to bring unfit for service (due to his shoulder wound), recieved an army pension and put his address down as in London.

He had a bit of a mixed military career being charged with neglect of duty a couple of times.

Waters was born about 10 miles from my home town.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard    Private Waters. Hid in a cupboard  EmptyThu Oct 19, 2023 5:53 pm

James W Bancroft Just to add to the DNW comments. I have it that John was a Londoner, and his medal was originally inscribed to G Waters and had to be changed, which may be the reason for the slight damage to the edge. John was officially discharged from the army at Netley on 27 October 1879. He had earned four good conduct badges, was entered in the regimental defaulter’s book six times, twice being court martialled, and his conduct during his service was described as: ‘very good’. He received the South Africa Medal with 1877-8-9 clasp, on 15 October 1880. The medal was originally inscribed G Waters, which was later changed to J Waters. His pension was eighteen pence a day for the first six months, then it was reduced to eight pence. From 31 January 1882, he received a permanent pension of ten pence a day. The address he gave for his intended place of residence was 12 Courtfield Gardens in South Kensington, London, which was the home of a wealthy landowner, where his sister, Mary Ann, lived and worked as a house servant.
His papers state that he was discharged: ‘From length of service and age 39, and wound, his capacity to earn a living will be in a considerable degree impaired.’ – However, within weeks of his discharge he became a messenger for the War Office, while lodging with the family of one of his co-workers, John Delve, at 8 Britten Street, London. By 1881 he had a home of his own at 8 Little Windmill Street, St James. He married Bridget McNally, on 2 October 1881, at St Peter’s Church in the parish of St James. Bridget’s address was given as 5 Cambridge Street, and by 1882 they had moved to 84 Burnthwaite Road, Fulham, and John remained in the employment of the War Office. On 17 November 1883, after only two years of marriage, John died of pneumonia at his home, aged 43. He was buried in Fulham Cemetery on 24 November (section E16, grave 11).
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