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 Durnford was he capable.1

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Frank Allewell

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Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 10:51 am

Julian
By penultimate I assume you mean the note from Chelmsford on the 16th. Read together it becomes interesting looking at Chelmsfords mindset with regard to the No 2 Column.
I look forward to your comments.

regards
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:03 am

Taking "Major Bengough" out of the picture, Because he was not directed to go Isandlwana. He orders were to move R.D

The message relating to Durnford was
Quote :
“You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No 2 column"

It's not saying "Once you there you are at liberty to do as you think best" At the end of the day, if he had done only what he was asked to do, he wouldnt have been the so called scapegoat he is to-day. If that was the only order he received regarding Isandlwana, then he disobayed orders.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:07 am

Chard
You can't take Bengough out of the picture, he's part of it. OF COURSE the last message doesn't say you have complete liberty to do as you think fit (that doesn't need to be said). Read the penultimate and prepenultimate messages. Read all three carefully. Put yourself in Durnford's place instead of in 2012.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:31 am

Chelmsford + Durnford + Pulleine = Isandhlwana Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:34 am

The questions that no one ever asks is what should have done Durnford ... Wink
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:37 am

+ Zulus, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:41 am

How could he imagine Chelmsford beat the Zulu army with the few troops he had brought with him leaving Isandhlwana Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:46 am

But Julian, if the Zulu army at Isandhlwana was COMMANDED by Chelmsford, Durnford and Pulleine, the British would have won the battle of Isandhlwana ...
:lol!:
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 4:18 pm

Pascal 12.41
Chelmsford imagined he would beat them in the same
way the British won at Centane the previous year.
Pascal 12.46
Are you being cynical? It's not obvious from the English, so you could be really asking this question...
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Quote :
Read all three carefully.
Where are the other 2
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 4:41 pm

Pascal 12.41
Chelmsford imagined he would beat them in the same
way the British won at Centane the previous year.

Pascal Answer :Yes for sure Julian, I had already explained this in another topic, is the key to everything, the Zulus are not Xhosa, when this is understood to be all inclusive as we both ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 4:56 pm

Pascal 12.46
Are you being cynical? It's not obvious from the English, so you could be really asking this question...

Pascal answer: I am not cynical, I think other general as Cunynghame or Wolseley would have been much better ...

So I would have liked in another topic, a historian like you explain the differences in personality, character and military talents between Cunynghame, Wolseley and Chelmsford ...

Very interesting this kind of comparisons ... When you know the evil that Wolseley to say on some heros of Isandhlwana and those of RD after the war ..

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 5:23 pm

Did pulliene even know that Lord C wasn't returning later in the day??



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 5:37 pm

Bonsoir DB 14Pulleine Chelmsford was to join the opposite ... it was not planned like that ...

But Pulleine was an obstacle to... Wink

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 5:41 pm

Hi Pascal

I mean was Pulliene expecting that Lord C was going to return that night after his attack or was Pulliene already packing up the camp to move.


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 5:42 pm

Pulleine was to join Chelmsford (not vice versa), but he had an impediment ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 5:44 pm

But there is no mention of Chelmsford saying this.

Wasn't Pulliene expecting his force back that night??

This is before the order arrived at noon.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 5:46 pm

But the Isandhlwana camp was temporary ... It makes sense... Wink
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 7:29 pm

Chard & impi

Head Quarter Camp Near Rorke’s Drift, Zululand 19 January 1879
No 3 column moves tomorrow to Insalwana Hill and from there, as soon as possible to a spot about 10 miles nearer to the Indeni Forest. From that point I intend to operate against the two Matyanas if they refuse to surrender. One is in the stronghold on or near the Mhlazakazi Mountain; the other is in the Indeni Forest. Bengough ought to be ready to cross the Buffalo R. at the Gates of Natal in three days time; and ought to show himself there as soon as possible.
I have sent you an order to cross the tiver at Rorke’s Drift tomorrow with the force you have at Vermaaks. I shall want you to operate against the Matyanas, but will send you fresh instructions on this subject. We shall be about 8 miles from Rorke’s Drift tomorrow.
Chelmsford
L.G.

Lieut. Colonel Durnford R.E.
Camp
Helpmakaar
1. You are requested to move the
troops under your immediate
command viz: mounted men,
rocket battery and Sikeli’s men
to Rourke’s Drift tomorrow the
20th inst; and to encamp on the
left bank of the Buffalo (in Zululand).
2. No 3 Column moves tomorrow
to the Isandhlana Hill.
3. Major Bengough with his battalion
Native Contingent at Sand Spruit
is to hold himself in readiness
to cross the Buffalo at the shortest
possible notice to operate against
the chief Matyana &c. His waggons
will cross at Rourke’s Drift.
4. Information is requested as to
the ford where the above battalion
can best cross, so as to co-operate
with No 3 Column in clearing
the country occupied by the chief
Matyana.
By Order
H. Spalding. Major
DAAG
Camp
Rourke’s Drift
19.1.79.


A further message on the 21st was carried by Shepstone from Chelmsford to Durnford. Its content is unknown.


Drummer boy

Chelmsford sent a message back to Pulleine via Gardner that he was to pack up camp and move on to join him at the Mangeni.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 9:21 pm

Hi Chard

The order tells AWD to move to Isandlwana which he did. There is no room for disobaying orders because he moved to Isandlwana.


Anyway time for science revision Suspect Suspect



Cheers

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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 9:41 pm

Julian. Thanks for the reply. Now I'm not trying to sound stupid, although it may seem that way. But I'm failing to understand how the messages you posted above have any bearing on the message he received ordering him to move to the camp at Isandlwana. I'm just trying to accertain exactly why he was told to go to Isandlwana as there seems to be no purpose for sending him. If we can stick to the first message, which was sent by Crealock. Was he not disobeying orders when he left Isandlwana. This Is what I'm getting to.

This from Smith-Dorrient. Forty eight years service.

"At about midnight I was sent for by General Lord Chelmsford and told to take a dispatch back to Rorke's Drift for Colonel Durnford, R.E., who was expected there with reinforcements consisting of native levies. I rode back, 10 miles, arriving at Rorke's Drift just before dawn on the 22nd, and delivered my dispatch. It ought to have been a very jumpy ride, for I was entirely alone and the country was wild and new to me, and the road little better than a track; but pride at being selected to carry an important dispatch and the valour of ignorance (for I only realised next day that the country was infested with hostile Zulus) carried me along without a thought of danger. Colonel Durnford was just moving off with his levies towards Sandspruit (away from Isandhlwana), but on reading the dispatch, which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandhlwana camp (as Lord Chelmsford, with the main body of the force, leaving the camp standing, was moving out some miles to the east to attack the Zulu Army), he at once changed the direction of his march."

So here he's saying he was sent with the order for Durnford by Chelmsford.
He also says that Durnford was about to move towards Sandspruit, after reading the order. " which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandhlwana camp (as Lord Chelmsford, with the main body of the force, leaving the camp standing, was moving out some miles to the east to attack the Zulu Army), he at once changed the direction of his march"




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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 9:59 pm

Hi Chard

Durnford had taken some 30 men to Sandspruit to see if he could aquire any waggons for his column.

Also read this by Springbok9

His orders from Chelmsford were unspecific in that there was no suggestion of taking command or re enforcing the camp.
He was the commander of an independent column and so had the freeedom to make his own decisions. One of those decisions was to inform Pullein that he, Durnford, would retain his independant column status and seek to protect Lord Chelmsfords rear.
The last intelligence Durnford and Pullein received was " the Zulus are withdrawing". This was one of the factors that lead to the suspicion that the impi was going after Chelmsford.
Accordingly Durnford informed Pullein that his course of action was to try and interceed between Chlemsford and the Zulu army





Cheers
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 10:09 pm

Quote :
His orders from Chelmsford were unspecific in that there was no suggestion of taking command or re enforcing the camp.
He was the commander of an independent column and so had the freeedom to make his own decisions. One of those decisions was to inform Pullein that he, Durnford, would retain his independant column status and seek to protect Lord Chelmsfords rear.
The last intelligence Durnford and Pullein received was " the Zulus are withdrawing". This was one of the factors that lead to the suspicion that the impi was going after Chelmsford.
Accordingly Durnford informed Pullein that his course of action was to try and interceed between Chlemsford and the Zulu army

This is from Springbok. Mine was from the man who delivered the message.
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 10:10 pm

What do you mean scratch

Smith-Dorrien never read the message. He wasn't allowed to.

Have you seen this

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Cheers
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 10:28 pm

DB14. It does not say that he read the Letter. For all we know he may have heard Durnford tell his men the next course of action.


Quote :
In 1886 Crealcok was asked by Major Jeky about the last order he sent.

I'm sorry but I can't take ths seriously, he couldn't remember what he said a few days after the event. So what chance would he have 7 years later.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:17 pm

Julian. I would be interested to known what source this came from.

" A further message on the 21st was carried by Shepstone from Chelmsford to Durnford. Its content is unknown"
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 11, 2012 11:43 pm

Hi Chard .
I think Smith - Dorrien is in the same boat as he wrote his memoirs 40 yrs after they happened , so its a good chance he isnt 100 % accurate either !. I thought I'd read somewhere that Durnford wasnt at the Drift when SD arrived , he gave the orders to a Colonial officer who knowing where Durnford was , took the orders to him !. I'm happy to be corrected .
cheers 90th.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 8:28 am

Good point 90th. But then again, Smith had no reason to lie or reason to forget. Remember Smith also comments on Melville and Coghilll's departure, saying no one consulted him.
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 9:00 am

Hi 24th.
There is no inference that Smith - Dorrien Lied , and no reason to forget , well as you get older you do forget . I'm a testimony to that . Idea . I'm not saying he did in fact forget but you must remember he had a very busy life in the military over his career .
So it may have been possible .
cheers 90th Idea
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 9:56 am

Maybe if we read between the line, Smith might just be trying to tell us something.
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 9:59 am

Hi 24th .
scratch . What are you referring to ? . scratch scratch .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 10:08 am

Hi Garry & 24 th

We remember what we want ... Wink

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 1:16 pm

That Durnfords orders were to reinforce the camp. It makes more sense that he was required to reinforce as the camp had been reduced in numbers.
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 1:49 pm

Hi 24th.
The orders dont say to reinforce the camp , this is where the confusion starts . He ( Durnford ) is merely told to make his way there .
No reading between the lines with the hindsight of 2012 !.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 1:58 pm

Hi 24 th

Yeah it is a logical movement, it bails out the camp on the orders of Chelmsford after the dépard of the latter.

Anyway coming in Zululand, column # 2 could only be used as reinforcement in the third column.

Because its constitution was too unbalanced and his firepower too littleto do what her own campaign ...

Cheers

Pascal
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 2:02 pm

Hi 24th / Impi .
It has been stated over the years that some of Horace Smith - Dorrien's accounts from the war have been a little muddled , I think
this is stated when people have reviewed his book , 48 yrs of service or something similar . I stated earlier I thought that when Smith - dorrien arrived at R.D , Durnford wasnt there . Page 293 of Zulu Rising states ..... When he ( SD) reported to the Headquarters tents
Durnford was absent , he had set off earlier that morning to visit the Biggarsberg farmers to try and persuade them to give up their wagons to the invasion . A little disappointed SD passed over the orders to George Shepstone instead . SD would make his way back to Isandlwana later in the morning .
cheers 90th. Idea
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 2:14 pm

Hi Pascal .
Your last post reflects again today's thinking with the benefit of hindsight . The British didnt think for one moment the camp was going to be attacked . You wrote ...... '' Anyway coming in zululand column 2 could only be used as reinforcements in the 3rd column '' . In 2012 you have a point , but you need to look and think 1879 !!!!. This thought of reinforcing the camp as you put it was more than likely the furtherest thing form anyone's thinking on the morning of 22nd Jan , dont forget everbody thought Chelmesford was the one who was going to get into a major battle .
cheers 90th. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 2:47 pm

AS Julian has pointed out. Read Durnfords preceeding orders in conjunction with his final order. Together they are a set of instructions and an explanation of what Chelmsford was going to do and what he wanted Durnford to do.
Read them carefully, they exonerate Durnford completely, by leaving the camp he was following orders. But draw your own conclusions.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 2:49 pm

Garry,

well Chelmsford while not thinking that one instand camp can be attacked, could still want to strengthen it with caution with the column n°2...

Chelmsford did not disclose what he had in mind at the time, out of prudence or presentiment, Chelmsford sending Durnford troops to replace the parts of camp or Chelmsford mail Durnford at the camp, because there is no other place Where to Durnford could have gone with his column No. 2 ...

I think the first solution is militarily very correct ... Only Durnfoerd did not have enough troops and Chelmsford dared imagine an attack on the camp in his abscence Idea

Cheers

Pascal
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 3:19 pm

I don’t have a lot of time today so I’m typing quickly – excuse errors please!

Chard#1
Read the three messages as a continuous narrative. If you’re still none the wiser, wait till the end of this month when I hope to have a publication ready for you which clarifies all.
Smith-Dorrien, writing many years afterwards, cannot be relied on re opinion as he has been influenced by retrospective propaganda. Read his contemporary accounts for a clearer view.

Drummer boy
I thought you were doing science revision?
You are of course, quite right, S-D would not have read the message and would not have been a party to Durnford’s thinking once he’d received it (he doesn’t say that he was or overheard anything at any rate). S-D did not accompany Shepstone when he galloped after Durnford to deliver it.

Deleted. Unfounded Comment.
I’m afraid that I am not willing to tell you where this came from.

24th#1
S-D never had a reason to forget, he just couldn’t help it! He also never had a reason to lie but he had every reason to be influenced by what he subsequently believed to be the case and thus unwittingly told an untruth.
I doubt very much if S-D was trying to leave us a Da Vinci coded-style message. He was far too solid for that.

Pascal#1
I like your painted legionnaire! I’ll answer your Cox question very soon – I want to check something first and need to get into my attic!

24th#2
It makes more sense to whom??? To you in 2012, knowing what you know? Read the three orders together. Look at Chelmsford’s broad intentions. As far as Pulleine was concerned he was packing up the camp and awaiting an order to advance the camp to the Mangeni.

All
As a general rule, don’t quote from secondary histories to support your opinions. Use primary sources. Histories, especially popular histories, cannot be trusted (some less than others) in what are, after all, only authors’ interpretations. If they quote from a primary source then that is a different matter. Some historians have even been known to be creative with the truth.

90th
I agree with your advice to Pascal.

Springbok
I agree with you.

Pascal#2
No offence, but your English is a little challenging in your last post. You do very well in English, far better than I do in French, but your reply was perhaps a little too literal to make sense.


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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 3:39 pm

Hi Chard

As Crealcok wrote the order he copied it into his order book. He was using the order book that had been recovered from the battle field when he wrote the letter.

Look at the letter

which was found on the field 7 months later by Colonel Black & forwarded me & which, stained with the mud of the field, lies before me

Also SD wasn't present when the order was given to Durnford so he couldn't have heard it.

Cheers


Last edited by Drummer Boy 14 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 4:55 pm

Not at all offended Julien,

it's normal that I am the most miserable in English language on this forum...


Cheers


Pascal
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 4:56 pm

Don't you believe it!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 5:18 pm

Julian

All Those Who Talk on this forum are Anglophone except me and another.

On this forum, impossible for a Anglophone speaking Worse english language Than a Francophone, or There Is Something Wrong ... scratch

Cheers

Pascal
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 7:25 pm

Julian. I'm quite happy to wait until the end of the month where hopefully it will become better to understand.

However I must say that I feel the issue is being clouded. The fact I was trying to establish is Durnfords part not at RD of before that. But from the moment he received his orders. And what his actual purpose was on the 22nd Jan 1879.

DB. I always thought and according to Crealock he lost his note and was speaking from memory at the court of enquiry.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 7:27 pm

Chard1879 wrote:
DB. I always thought and according to Crealock he lost his note and was speaking from memory at the court of enquiry.

Hi Chard

You are correct that he lost his order book in January.

However Major Black found and returned it in June when he buried the 24th dead at Isandlwana.


Cheers
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 7:32 pm

Could you let me have the source. Please.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 7:42 pm

Hi Chard

I may have got a bit wrong in my recall.

This is from Zulu Victory by Ron Lock and Peter Quantril

The burial parties in June located numerous documents and papers, all of which were recovered and taken back to Rorkes Drift. Included in these papers, most of which belonged to Chelmsford, was Crealocks missing notebook in which he had written Chelmsford order to Durnford. The order book was forwarded to Crealcok in England in late 1879 by Military headquaters South Africa.

Also in Crealcoks own words

which was found on the field 7 months later by Colonel Black & forwarded me & which, stained with the mud of the field, lies before me


Also mentioned in the Anglo Zulu War Historical Socitey
And Saul David's Zulu.


Cheers
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 7:46 pm

Also Col. E Durnford saw it in 1882



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1   Durnford was he capable.1 - Page 12 EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 8:09 pm

Deleted Off Topic.
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