The Wrecked Camp

I am starting this again in a new thread because it simply confuses the "Iron Cross" discussion.

rusteze wrote:

Hi Fred

The reference in "The Wrecked Camp" is footnote number 135. "Major General Sir Alexander Tulloch who visited Isandhlwana in 1885 published his recollections in several newspapers e.g. the Brecon Radnor Express 27 July 1916". He talks about Pope being buried near Trpr. Blaikie, Natal Carbineers and QM Hitchcock, Newcastle Mounted Rifles.

Incidentally, this essay by you and Julian in SZW IV is an absolute tour de force. I am in total admiration for the number of references you have brought together and the accompanying 156 footnotes is simply mind boggling. You each deserve a medal!

Steve Reinstadtler

That is what took us down another path (for which apologies), others may wish to add their subsequent contributions.

Steve

Steve,

You sparked me into action to look for further information on Major-General Tulloch, and I found his 1903 book Recollections of Forty Years’ Service, a copy of which is available on the following link:
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There is an interesting piece hidden amongst its pages told by a Zulu called “Big Beard” which some members of the forum may be familiar with.

JY

Well found John, I read of BigBeard many many years ago and quite honestly forgot all about him.

Intriguing, I don't remember to have read something about Bigbeard elsewhere.
Çheers
Frédéric

from that archive...

has had anything to do with the raw (kraal) Zulus
declares them to be brave, truthful, and moral to
a degree unknown amongst civilised nations. Sub-
sequently, after my return from the other side of
the Tugela, I saw a good deal of the kraal Zulu, and
this only served to increase my appreciation of that
fine race. When at Eshowe, after inspecting Mansell's
Native Police, I signalled with my stick (knowing
nothing of the language) how they were to extend,
then gradually close in, firing, to capture an old fort :
they did it perfectly at the second attempt. One
of these men was called " Big Beard." I asked the
reason, as he had no beard, and Mansell said it was
because at the battle of Isandhlwana he had killed



ZULUS' ACCOUNT OF ISANDHLWANA. 337

an English soldier with a big beard. The Zulus who
took part in that fight spoke enthusiastically about
the grand way in which the two last small squares
on the slope of the hill met death. With their
ammunition all expended, and nothing but the bayonet
left, the Zulus say the British made fun of them,
chaffing and calling them to " come on." In the final
melee the Zulus said our men fought so desperately
that each English soldier killed at least ten Zulus.
Of one man who had taken refuge in a deep crevice
in the rock they spoke with unbounded admiration.
This man, all alone, kept up the fight, firing steadily,
killing with every shot, until his last cartridge was
gone, when he coolly fixed his bayonet and dashed
out amongst them, stabbing right and left till over-
powered by assegai-thrusts.

Hi  All,



...."taken refuge in a crevice in the rocks", unquote...... is that that not  a description of  the really heroic last stand in the "'cave" on Isandlwana. As a by-the- by, the name big beard would have been translated from entshebi enkulu, in Zulu.  
It  may be possible to identify who this very brave  British soldier was, from prior photos, ages etc.
If  more facts could be put together it would make the basis of another very useful and interesting essay by Julian and Frederic.
It was  exactly this sort of action that was very deserving of high commendation and awards, rather than some of those that were "concocted" hastily to suit the various political agendas.
                         .



regards





barry

Bonjour Barry,
Thank you very much for your confidence but in my humble opinion I don't think that the brave soldier can be identified.
According to the works of historians, this man belonged (maybe) to Capt. Younghusband's Coy.
There is no surviving roll of this Coy .
From memory, even the location of the crevace is not sure.
There is a probable link with Mainwaring's narrative ( the rope around the neck), written in 1895, told by SRB on the thread Iron Cross.
This testimony is in the archives of the Brecon Muséum (Frank has posted in the past an extract of it on thé forum) and has been published in the Noble 24th by Holme.
Cheers
Frédéric

Bonjour Frederic,

Thanks for your reply.
I disagree, the location of "the cave" is very well known and lies on the eastern facing buttress of the mountain,   right where the grassed slopes first meet the vertical rock faces. This is where pieces of red tunic were found in the past along with many spent MH cartridges cases as well as a length of rope, I think.   Sleuthing through the war records to pin the facts of the incident down would provide quite a challenge for anyone so inclined ,  ...... Frederic, we have great faith in your work.  

regards

barry

PS; the place is in reality hardly a cave, more of a small fissure perhaps

Barry,
Thank you very much for the correction about the location of the "cave" and for your encouragements.
The bits of "red clothes" and the "many spent cartridges cases" are described, in particular, by Mainwaring.
Cheers.
Frédéric

Hi All
I'll send some pics to Les of the cave , no-one is 100 % certain which is '' the '' cave , there are several in that immediate area , this one being the larger and easiest to get to , and the only one that photographs well ! .
90th

Gary is that the photo of you doing your Victorian Drama scene?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Frank , yes that's right ... melodrama ! , I forgot about that one , I sent 6 or so to Les to post , not the one I won the Oscar for ! .
90th

C'mon Gary ya gotta post that one

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1 , 2 & 3 The '' accepted '' last man Cave

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1/ Looking to the Younghusband Cairn , the cave is about 80 mtrs or so behind it .
2 / Cave mouth is visible here , the dark hole sitting above the taller tree , just left of centre .

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here's one more , the cave mouth is easier to see here . Younghusband's Cairn is obscured by the Acacia Tree to the left .


All images and text from the 90th.

I remember that Frank wrote a very interesting essay about Younghusband's "retreat" the 22 January, with many photographies (including the famous - possible cave) posted on the forum.
Cheers
Frédéric

The cave is a myth! Never happened.

CTSG,

Are you doubting the testimony of “Big Beard” of the Nongqai?

Myth busted...

JY

loling

Cheers Les

Frank
I dont think so HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
90th

[quote="John Young"]CTSG,

Are you doubting the testimony of “Big Beard” of the Nongqai?

Myth busted...

CTSG,

If only I could understand your response, I might have some witty riposte.

JY

there you go. Sorted.

Mystified.

Hi Gary/ Frank

Being recent visitors to  Isandlwana, please look at Google Earth and see if you agree that the following lat/long marks, to your knowledge, the mouth of  "the "  last survivor cave. - 28deg 21' 10.62"S  /  30deg 39' 05.31"E


regards

barry

Hi
Big Beard & friends are recorded in England's Sons Section T16 for those who want the page ref.
Re the cave, as far as I'm aware no-one recorded for certain exactly which cave or crevice Mainwaring/Big Beard referred to. There is the one that's big enough for a man to get into (and therefore the likely candidate) but after all it can't be substantiated beyond doubt...any port in a storm, surely, for the poor devil that was in that situation?

Evening Barry, whats the chance of you sending some water down to the Cape?
Yep I would pretty much agree that is the position of the photos Gary posted. While we do know that Mainwaring found the artifacts I'm not to sure if he specified exactly where, so Id be really reluctant to put my head on a block.
Some time back I was with a very learned guide, now no longer with us, who had a totally different idea of the location. His opinion was that there were a number of men didn't run down with Younghusband, instead they ran up hill. Hence the topmost cairn, a long way behind the stand area. And also there is another 'cave' very close to that area.
So I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.

Cheers
PS don't forget about the water, hell I need a shower.

Julian,
Thank you for the référence about Bigbeard, I shall take a look.
Amitié
Fred

Hi Frank
Which Cairn are you referring to as the 'Topmost ' Cairn ? . The only large one of any size is the Younghusband Cairn , which is 80 or so mtrs down the slope from the Cave that I showed . There are from memory 8 or so Cairns basically in a straight line , along that scree slope . I was looking for something else yesterday and came across ( didnt write it down ) that some Soldiers were indeed thrown from the top of Isandlwana , I think it was Norris - Newman ? . I'm not sure the Younghusband charge was as grand as is made out to be honest , I'm sure some went up , and around , as there are some cairns about the same height as you go around the hill to the western slope , I've noticed 4 or 5 from memory ? , difficult to photograph if there is to much growth .

90th

Hi Barry
Hope you're well mate ? , Google Earth , Lat & Long marks , sorry mate , I have no idea , Frank is your only hope .
90th

Morning Gary
Just watching the Tea time highlights, Khawaga is on fire.
The Lat and Long Barry has put up is your cave.
The highest cairn is to the West of the Younghusbnd cairn, up on the ridge dropping down towards Shepstone. Just to the right is a cave I posted some time back. That was Kens cave.
I'm afraid I'm like you these days, technically deficient in posting photos but it was posted some where on the forum.
I'm off to Newlands in a couple of hours, great day yesterday against India.

Cheers

The was a whole discussion about the various caves with photos, ex photobucket, that have now gone.
Ymob asked Ian Knights opinion in a series of on line questions.
His take

"This incident is based on a Zulu account, so I think it probably did happen - but not quite as R.T. Moynan’s painting represents it! Moynan of course has the soldier standing upright in the cave entrance, falling forward as he is hit, his hand raised almost in a gesture of blessing, the Zulus at his feet looking on with awe, rather like the Roman soldiers before the crucified Christ! It’s a painting full of Victorian symbolism and assumptions about the ‘White Man’s Burden’ and the sacrifices necessary for a civilising mission. In fact, if it happened at all, I think it was much more unpleasant than the painting suggests. Although the entrance to the cave is fairly open, not unlike the painting, there is a much lower chamber at the back which extends a few more feet back into the mountain. It would just about be possible to crawl into that, and from there fire point-blank at any Zulus who put their head round the entrance to the cave. It would have been cramped, claustrophobic, smelly, and every shot would have been deafening and filled the cave with smoke. But - it would have been very difficult for the Zulus to get at him, which makes sense of the story that they couldn’t kill him until they got together and fired a volley into the cave - that would have entailed creeping up to the fallen boulders at the entrance, then firing into the smaller chamber at the back. The soldier probably hoped that he could have hidden there, and was unlucky to have been discovered in the first place - and it’s altogether a much bleaker and less heroic story than the painting conveys. Of course, although it is supposed to have taken place in one particular cave, at the foot of the cliffs behind the ‘Younghusband cairn’, there are other caves, and we don’t know for sure exactly where it happened. Nor have we any way of knowing whether this was the last survivor, or whether there were others whose stories were simply not recorded. "

Source: Questions submited to Ian Knight from forum members: / Source 1879 AZW forum

Hi Frank
Yes there are some cairns cairns scattered along that slope , as I mentioned there are 4 or 5 but quite possibly more , leading to the western side of Isandlwana , havent got to them due to the overgrowth on that slope . Will give it a try when their next . I May have photographed them from the plain , if so , I'll send them to Les , he'll certainly post them for us . I didnt realise you were playing India , we are in Sth Africa after the Ashes series , should be very interesting , especially if Warner & Smith fail ! . 42 here in sunny Melbourne today I love my air conditioner !
90th

Yep we're into the high 30s, was forced to drink obscene amounts of beer yesterday at the game, purely medicinal of course.
Ive sent some photos of to Steve ( My poster ) the 'old' days with photobucket was the limit of my expertise.
Cheers

Hi Frank
Yes that's bad luck about the beer , but I suppose someone has to do it ! lolllll . We had a power outage this arvo , missed most of the last session at the cricket , luckily I found my battery operated radio ! . The temperature was 43 deg when it went off , luckily it dropped to 26 about 3 hrs later , power was back not long after that . I'll send Les the only pic I have of the Cairns high up on the slope , as you head around to the Western side of the mountain , as I said from memory there are 5 , possibly more , not sure , will check it out in May .
90th

Pictures from Frank

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Steve

Thanks Steve.
Top. The Cave, or one of them
Second: Extreme left is Younghusbands cairn, extreme right on edge of photo the highest cairn.
Third: The cairn with the cave in the background
Forth: The Cairn with the ground dropping away to the West and towards Shepstones cairn group. Shiyane on the left horizon and the Biggarsberg to the right.

Cheers

Hi Frank
India and England both in trouble ! .
90th

Took b*lls for Mitch to block that last over and not take chances to give his brother the strike. Could you imagine the Waugh brothers doing that, hell cant even imagine them talking to each other.
India is fighting back a tad, I spent a couple of hours there earlier, great vibe. Will pop through for the first session tomorrow.
Looking forward to the next tour and seeing Steve Smith in action.

You do know that petes going to come down on this don't you.

With luck he won't notice ??? hahahahahahaha
90th

Just pretend its Computer speak.

Keppler Wessels and Shaun Pollock are commentating and have been working on a plan to get Steve Smith out: Hit him with a cricket bat. hard, as he walks out seems to be the concensus.

That may work ! hahahahahahha

from the 90th.

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These are a couple of the Cairns further around from the Younghusband Cairn , which is to the right about a 100 mts , this is looking up the slope , the western side of Isandlwana ( which is where George Shepstone and his men perished ) is continuing to the left about 250 mtrs away . .

Les you once asked about long grass at iSandlwana, would this answer your question? I haven't seen it much longer.

Thanks Les much appreciated , Frank , yes the Grass , when I was last in Z'land May of 2017 , the grass was as tall as I've ever seen it on the side of the roads , it was to tall to go and look over Wolf Hill and Ft Evelyn , would've been a waste of time walking through knee to waist high grasses . I'm hoping there are some fires before I get there in May !
90th

Gary

Hi Frank, well remembered, i had actually remembered that myself from
time to time, i called the grass in places as ' waist high ' more than
enough to conceal assailant's.. i can't quite get a fix on the length of the
grass on the 22nd, but then i guess it does'nt much matter to the final
outcome.