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The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
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intombe




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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat Jan 13, 2018 10:38 pm

Just picked up a collection of medals and documents belonging to Major General Arthur Kenneth Hay DSO OBE  late RA. In his memoirs he stated:

............and the the family went to live at 3, The Ridges, Farnborough, Hants. This house was on the high ground opposite to the gates into Empress Eugenie's house  (widow of Napoleon III). There is a mausoleum in the grounds where Napoleon and the Prince Imperial are buried. It might be mentioned here that our father ( General E.O. Hay) was one of the pall bearers who carried Prince Imperial's coffin at his funeral  (six of the tallest young Artillery Officers were selected for this). As the Empress was a Roman Catholic, there were a number of monks connected with the mausoleum. In our holidays one of our amusements used to be to shoot with catapults or pea shooters, I forget which, at these monks as they went in and out of the gates. We did this from the roof of the house on to which we were able to get to through a skylight, and we were always out of sight behind the roof when the monks looked round.
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rusteze

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat May 05, 2018 1:23 pm

Requiem today for Napoleon III at Farnborough Abbey.
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Steve Reinstadtler
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat May 05, 2018 2:13 pm

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat May 05, 2018 5:45 pm

The beautifully embroidered funeral pall was made for the funeral of the Prince Imperial.

Steve Reinstadtler
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySun Sep 09, 2018 9:56 am

Prince Imperial's sarcophagus in Farnborough Abbey. Note date on stone cushion.

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Steve
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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySun Sep 09, 2018 11:20 am

The date he was laid to rest...
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyMon Sep 10, 2018 1:29 pm

You need to make an appointment if you wish to visit his tome.
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xhosa2000

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyMon Sep 10, 2018 6:36 pm

An appointment to visit a book?. Joker
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyMon Sep 10, 2018 7:40 pm

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Quote!
Visiting at other times

Individuals who wish to visit the church and crypt should contact us, either by email below or by telephone (Mon. to Fri. 10am – 4pm). We work for our living and it is not practical for us simply to ‘down tools’ every time the doorbell rings.

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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyMon Sep 10, 2018 8:19 pm

I see my attempt at levity sank like a stone, TOME a book, especially a large, heavy, scholarly one.
TOMB..a large vault, typically an underground one, for burying the dead... just a bit of wordplay.
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyTue Sep 11, 2018 11:19 pm

Sarcophagus!
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Sep 12, 2018 1:38 pm

sarcophagi...
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Sep 12, 2018 8:57 pm

Father, Mother & Son are entombed in the imperial crypt of St Michael's Abbey. 
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Feb 13, 2019 8:07 pm

Signed and annotated photo of Prince Imperial in frame. Very expensive (to my mind) but it might be of interest to our photo collectors. PM me for source details.
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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Feb 13, 2019 9:58 pm

Fringe from the Prince Imperial's funeral pall with a note from the Baron Tristan Lambert, the Prince's dear friend
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(Isandula Collection)
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Tim Needham

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 7:06 pm

Good evening all,

I've just come across an article on a local history website regarding a talk given to them by a guest speaker on the death of the Prince Imperial (not sure how long ago).

In this article, there are a couple of 'facts' presented which I'm a little suspicious of, including the supposition that Zulus apparently used swords.....

More seriously, there is an accusation that the Prince raped a Zulu woman prior to his death.

I've never heard of this allegation before and wondered if anyone else has? I must say that I find it an unacceptable charge to level at the Prince should it be unfounded, but before I try to contact the local history website in an attempt to get an answer from the speaker involved regarding his sources, I just thought I'd ask for all your combined knowledge and expertise!

Regards,

Tim



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John Young

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 7:35 pm

Tim,

I believe that a couple of KZN based battlefield guides recount a tale that the Prince Imperial was involved in a liaison with a Zulu woman, and imply that he was caught with his trousers down at the time of the ambush.

John

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Isandula

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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 7:41 pm

Yes, I heard that story as well--same as John Young. Also heard that the Prince's trousers, being so tight, kept him from vaulting into the saddle of the grey.
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Tim Needham

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Thanks to you both - is this story supported by any contemporary accounts, or is it simply a more modern attempt to make the story more 'interesting'?
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John Young

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 7:57 pm

Tim,

Personally, I think it is just an attempt to scandalise an already sensational event.

I will drop an e-mail to a friend of mine to see if he can point me in the right direction as to the source.

John
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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 8:19 pm

Thanks John - much appreciated.

Regards,

Tim
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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyThu Nov 19, 2020 8:02 am

Tim,

The tale that Ron & I have heard of is apparently recounted by Pat Rundgren, a KZN battlefield tour guide. My source believes it has been published in a magazine or journal.

John
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Tim Needham

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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyFri Nov 20, 2020 7:01 pm

I'm pleased to say that the Local History website concerned has removed the offending accusation pending more concrete evidence!

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyFri Nov 27, 2020 1:15 pm

Hi Tim,
Sounds like a really malicious bit of evil rumour mongering. I have never heard this one before. Given that the Prince was in a small party that day it is circumstantially unlikely to have happened. The person spreading it should be taken to task and dealt with severely.

regards

barry
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Kenny




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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat Nov 28, 2020 8:53 am

Pat Rundgren from Dundee appeared to be the purveyor of many colourful stories about the AZW. Did he not produce his own battlefield guide? I suppose his view was why let an interesting story get in the way of the truth. Well, he probably boasted visitor numbers and local economy.
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat Nov 28, 2020 10:56 am

Ive sent Pat an e mail and asked for his comments.
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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat Nov 28, 2020 4:29 pm

I have been sent the following snippet which may explain where the rumour originated:

"On 7 June 1996 the Northern Natal Courier reported that amateur Glencoe (KwaZulu-Natal) historians Sandy Hesom, Joss de Kock and Louwtjie Englebrecht - 'The Three Musketeers' - claimed on the basis of stories, said to have been 'handed down by generations of Zulus and others living in the area at the time', that the Prince had failed to mount his horse because he had his breeches down 'around his ankles' to facilitate sexual intercourse with a 'Zulu maiden' lurking among the huts where the patrol had halted. Sandy Hesom is quoted as saying:

There were no stab holes in his [the Prince's] uniform - although he was stabbed a least 17 times. It could be he was not wearing clothes at the time of the attack as he was with a Zulu maiden.

Hesom concluded suggestively: 'I won't be surprised if others in the party were in similar stages of undress'. "


Laband, John. "He Fought Like a Lion": An assessment of Zulu Accounts of the death of the Prince Imperial of France during the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879". Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, vol. 76, no.307, 1998, pp.194-201.
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PostSubject: Prince Imperial    Prince Imperial EmptySun Nov 29, 2020 2:53 am

Hi Tim Hope you're well ? . I see in Ian K's ' With his face to the Foe ' there's a pic of the Prince Imperial's Patrol Jacket and undershirt which state the Spear thrusts can be '' cleary '' seen on the Patrol Jacket , Plate / Pic No 20 .
Cheers Tim .
90th .

Kenny
Yes Pat did produce a booklet titled '' What Really Happened At RD '' , he may have done a couple of others as well ? .
90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySun Nov 29, 2020 11:11 pm

Thanks 90th,

I understand that the uniform is in the Chateau de Compiegne - with spear-holes which match up through the patrol jacket, waistcoat and shirt, and with the descriptions of his wounds.

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySun Nov 29, 2020 11:20 pm

Yes, I saw it at the museum in Compiegne, and I asked the fellow in charge there about the absence of blood.  To which his reply was a smart remark about me wanting to see blood.  It looked as fresh as a daisy with, I believe, a few cuts (cannot remember) where the spears cut the material.  At one time I had a piece of his uniform with blood on it collected by the newspaper man Paul Deleage.
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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Using the assegai   Prince Imperial EmptyMon Nov 30, 2020 5:18 am

Hi All,
It was standard  practice by the Zulu to pierce with his first thrusts, in an assegai attack, at the vitals of the enemy , all of which are in the upper body, or head/neck, and not the lower part of the body, ie the breeches.  The wounds reported on the body of the slain  Prince were consistent with that, but the medical reports also included mention of head and eye damage. It was very common practice too for the Zulu to take war trophies, in some cases it could be body parts, but more often was hats/helmits, jackets, trousers, boots, weapons, watches.  All of which was consistent in the case of the Prince.

regards

barry
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Prince Imperial Empty
PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptySat Dec 26, 2020 8:14 pm

I found what I thought to be an interesting piece regarding the Prince imperials horses hoof made as a trophy...I hope the link works
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PostSubject: Prince Imperial    Prince Imperial EmptySun Dec 27, 2020 10:13 pm

The link worked , I only read a bit of it , the Patrol was actually Commanded by Capt Jahleel Brenton Carey , who it seems took a backward step and let Louis run the Patrol . Carey was later Court - Martialed , found Guilty of Misbehavior before the enemy , sent back to England where he had some Public support , on a technicality the charge was not confirmed , and he was later able to rejoin his regiment , proceeded to India where he died not long after of Peritonitis , Empress Eugenie ( Mother Of Louis ) had also asked for Clemency in the case regarding Capt Carey.
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Prince Imperial   Prince Imperial EmptyTue Jan 19, 2021 3:39 pm

Danny1960 wrote:
I found what I thought to be an interesting piece regarding the Prince imperials horses hoof made as a trophy...I hope the link works
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It wasn't the Prince's horse. The Horse belonged to Trooper Abel, Bettington’s late 32nd LI. Killed with rider beside the Prince Imperial, Ityotyozi River, June 1st 1879.
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