WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Private James Powell - 24th Regiment
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyToday at 4:00 am by 90th

» George Champney Palmes - Medal at auction
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyYesterday at 5:34 pm by Dash

» Anderson, A. 2622 2-24th
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Dec 02, 2024 6:01 pm by Dash

» Samuel Popple
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Dec 01, 2024 10:14 pm by Dash

» 25B/671 Pte. J. Machin 2/24th Regiment, KIA Isandlwana
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Nov 28, 2024 9:43 pm by Tim Needham

» John Samuel Jobbins. Rorkes Drift Defender.
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Nov 28, 2024 12:36 pm by jgregory

» The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young

» Dr. A. Ralph Busby
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Nov 23, 2024 9:14 am by Julian Whybra

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 22, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra

» Lieutenant M.G. Wales, 1st Natal Native Contingent
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Nov 16, 2024 12:32 pm by Matthew Turl

» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 15, 2024 9:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Royal Marine Light Infantry, Chatham
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Nov 14, 2024 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» H.M.S. Forester
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Nov 14, 2024 4:07 pm by johnex

» Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now available
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» Grave of Henry Spalding
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves

» John West at Kambula
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15

» Private Frederick Evans 2/24th
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T

» Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthy
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra

» William Jones Comment
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie

» Brother of Lt Young
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg

» Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra

» Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualties
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra

» Absence of Vereker from Snook's Book
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock family
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan

» No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas Newman
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash

» Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's Drift
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan

» Studies in the Zulu War volumes
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Martini Henry carbine IC1 markings
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs

» James Conner 1879 clasp
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny

» 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf

» Frontier Light Horse uniform
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
December 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
      1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031     
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
In deference to other online platforms discussing the history of the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Dash
Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftWhich Trooper Brown? BarWhich Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
BritNZCan22
Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftWhich Trooper Brown? BarWhich Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
90th
Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftWhich Trooper Brown? BarWhich Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
John Young
Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftWhich Trooper Brown? BarWhich Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
G Butcher
Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftWhich Trooper Brown? BarWhich Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
1879graves
Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftWhich Trooper Brown? BarWhich Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
STEPHEN JAMES
Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftWhich Trooper Brown? BarWhich Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
New topics
» George Champney Palmes - Medal at auction
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyYesterday at 5:34 pm by Dash

» Anderson, A. 2622 2-24th
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Dec 02, 2024 6:01 pm by Dash

» Private James Powell - 24th Regiment
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 29, 2024 10:03 pm by BritNZCan22

» 25B/671 Pte. J. Machin 2/24th Regiment, KIA Isandlwana
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Nov 28, 2024 9:43 pm by Tim Needham

» The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young

» Dr. A. Ralph Busby
Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 am by Julian Whybra

» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm by John Young

» Samuel Popple
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Which Trooper Brown?

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3319
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Mar 23, 2019 9:50 am

I have been having an interesting discussion with “The Major” outside of the forum over the discovery of the bodies of Lieutenant & Captain Robert Barton, Coldstream Guards and Lieutenant James Poole, Border Horse.

Wood in his autobiography states the bodies were discovered by Trooper Brown, V.C., who I assume to be Trooper Peter Brown, V.C., formerly of the Cape Mounted Rifles.

However, Ron Lock in Blood on the Painted Mountain credits Trooper Robert “Bobby” Brown, D.C.M., formerly of the Frontier Light Horse, with the discovery. Yet I know he returned to the U.K. in 1879, as he received his D.C.M. at Windsor Castle, in December of that year.

The matter is further complicated on the V.C./G.C. site who attribute Trooper Peter Brown’s Victoria Cross presentation as being by Sir Garnet Wolseley, which I find hard to believe Wolseley left South Africa on 5th May 1880, a little under a month after Brown’s name appeared in The London Gazette of 12th April 1880.

Any thoughts, anyone?

JY
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10912
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Which Trooper Brown   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 3:52 am

Hi JY
You've probably done the same as me but I checked Wolseley's SA Journal 1879-80 , there is no mention of him bestowing the VC to Trooper Brown , Wolseley , as you are aware , embarked at Durban on April 27th to proceed to the UK , he had stops at Port Elizabeth and Cape Town from memory . Where was Lt Edward Stephenson Browne while Wood was with Eugenie's Party , could he have been the ' Brown(e) ' ? .
90th
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 9:33 am

Bonjour John,
I am not sure that helps but it is an FLH Trooper who saw Barton killed.
Source Natal Colonist, Saturday 12 April 1879, quoted in "The Boiling Cauldon", p. 273.
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3319
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 10:44 am

Frédéric,

Personally, I think the only people that saw Robert Barton die were Zulu.

His body was found someway off of the beaten track.

Other reports even confuse who he is actually carrying with him, one report has it he was carrying Rupert Weatherley.

Thanks anyway,

JY
Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Captain Barton   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 4:36 pm

Hi JY,


This may help. Taken from page  89, 'History of the NMP', by Holt.

quote ;
' From the camp at the Ityotyosi ( Princess  Eugenie's, that is) two of the Police were guided by a Zulu to the remains of Capt Barton, Grenadier Guards. This officer, when attempting to escape from Hlobane , had been followed by three Zulus  for a considerable distance , being overtaken and killed . His fate remained unknown until his body was pointed out'. unquote.


I have more on this about the actual discovery and what was removed from the scene, The descoverers performed a burial  of Barton's remains there too.  Based on the itinerary of the French Royal tour the finding of Barton's remains would have been in May of that year.
No Brown is mentioned in any of this. If the  quoted text above is correct, no one else did  know where this officer got to, or his fate.


regards



barry


Last edited by barry on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3319
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 5:13 pm

Barry,

If anything it actually confuses the issue further. Holt manages to get Barton’s unit wrong, and no Coldstreamer that I know would like to have been referred as a Grenadier as they are Nulli Secundus.

Wood states the items removed were buttons from Barton’s breeches, and a squadron pay book from his pocket, does that coincide with the items that you know of?

I know that “The Major” is going to undertake some research in PMB. Hopefully the truth will out - eventually.

Thanks,

JY

Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Capt Barton   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 5:20 pm

Hi John,
Don't shoot the messenger.
Exactly how many  Capt bartons were there.?

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3319
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 5:41 pm

Barry,

As if I would...

Regarding your Barton query, too many, and it leads to confusion amongst some folk.

JY
Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Capt Barton.   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 6:22 pm

Hi JY,
The date of finding the body was May 27th 1880.
The Zulu who fired the shot through Bartons thigh  after  pursuing him for 12 miles,  showed Cpl Clarke NMP the remains. They erected a cairn of stones over the  body. They found Barton's cap and pocket book at his side. The Zulu returned his sword. During the chase the Zulu said  Capt Barton had tried several times to shoot him with his revolver, but it failed to discharge each time.
The Zulu did not mention any other person being with Barton during the chase.

source ; the unpublised war diaries of Tpr Clarke NMP/NP/SAMR/REF; Vol 1 page 63
 

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 6:56 pm

A Trooper Brown (unit and first-name are not mentioned) was also with Wood's expedition towards Hlobane's mountain at the beginning of September 1881.
"Trooper Brown, a smart, useful man, who had been selected from great many others to accompany the expedition".
Sorry, again that's not help!
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3319
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 7:26 pm

Barry,

Thanks for that I wonder if the pocket book was the squadron pay book?

Wood has it that the grave was marked with a black painted wooden cross on which was cut Robert Barton, killed in action, 28th March 1879.

We should get Commissioner Clarke on the case!

Frederic,

Well at least we can discount Trooper Robert Barton, DCM, from that expedition as he was already deceased by then.

JY



Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10912
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Which Trooper Brown   Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 1:37 am

Hi JY
I've always read that Lt Col Frederick Weatherley was killed when trying to save his son Rupert , I think Capt Dennison was an eye witness ? , also have only ever read that Lt Pool(e) was killed with Barton. As per my earlier post , and I realise it's a longshot , but could the trooper Brown VC been a mix up with E.S.Browne 24th Regt VC , could he have possibly gone out with Wood and Eugenie ? .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3319
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 1:53 am

Smoko,

I gave that example as to how questionable some of the reporting was in the Natal newspapers was.

I believe that we can discount Lieutenant Browne from the mix, as there is no evidence to support it.

JY
Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Capt Barton   Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 3:18 am

Hi JY,

I take it that you are happy that we have the right man. I will check other sources which I have to see if I can cross reference any of this. I assume the Barton gravesite is some 20kms from the Hlobane action.


A little more about the activities on 27/05/1880;
On that day Wood and Princess Eugenie's entourage were visiting  Fort Newdigate , there to place a wreath and plant poppy seeds on the grave of Lt Frith, 17th Lancers, who by all accounts had been shot by his own men.  Thus, Wood was not present with Clarke when Barton's remains were found. There was another person there as Clarke refers to 'we'.


On the way back from Fort Newdigate, Wood shot a Hartebeest  with Clarke's carbine, which he had borrowed and then kept. The Hartebeest became a 'braai' that night at the Ityotyosi camp, feeding the whole Royal entourage. Clarke had no difficulty , on returning to PMBG sans his rifle, telling Maj Dartnell where it was, and how he a mere corporal then, had trained the General earlier in the tour to shoot 'properly'  with his carbine.



Checking the names listed for the French Royal entourage I see that a Brown, Hutton and Ford were listed as 'servants' . This may tally with both 90th's and ymobs posts. I seem to remember too that the servants chosen were selected because of their proven military prowess.
regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3319
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 6:43 am

Barry,

Thanks for all of that.

Wood had experienced previous difficulties with carbines, Fowler at Khambula proved that.

I have forwarded some of your information on to “The Major” to help him progress matters in KZN.

Regards,

JY
Back to top Go down
 
Which Trooper Brown?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams
» sergeant G J Brown
» Lieut. Col. J.T.B. Brown, C.B. R.A.

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: