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 Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams

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anorakABO




Posts : 26
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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyMon Apr 11, 2022 9:24 am

Greetings all,

As per previous post, Trooper David Doig who escaped from Isandlwana, is my third great uncle. David Doig's wife Juliza Adams was the daughter of Robert Adams and Gertrude Anna Maria Botha.

i.e. David Doig's father-in-law was Trooper Robert Adams that died at Rorke's Drift.

On the marriage certificate (23 Sep 1870) to Robert Adams and "Gerbreg Anna Maria Botha" he is listed as being born 1827 in Scotland and his occupation is given as "Bosch Jager" i.e. a hunter.

The children of this marriage are born between 1872 and 1875. In 1905 Getrude Adams remarries to William Tonkin.

It was quite the penny-drop when I discovered this!

Kind Regards,
AnorakABO
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3966
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Location : Billericay, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyMon Apr 11, 2022 11:56 am

anorakABO
I think you've made an error. The Robert Adams who was kia at Rorke's Drift was not a colonial trooper. He was an unmarried 2/24th soldier:
25B/987 Private Robert Adams D coy
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anorakABO




Posts : 26
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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyMon Apr 11, 2022 12:18 pm

The marriage certificate shows he was born in Scotland, i.e. I don't think he was a colonial trooper. He was 43 in 1870. What makes you say he was unmarried?
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anorakABO




Posts : 26
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyMon Apr 11, 2022 12:44 pm

Right place, right time. The marriage certificate even shows his place of residence as Pongolo, Utrecht.

I'll concede that I need more primary evidence, however I know for a fact his son-in-law David Doig, who was a colonial trooper, was at Isandlwana. He marries, has children, disappears circa 1879.

I see in another thread (Welsh/English etc.) that you listed Robert Adams under UNKNOWN. Do we have attestation papers for "25B/987 Private Robert Adams D coy"?
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyMon Apr 11, 2022 1:34 pm

anorakABO
Private Robert Adams 2/24th
Enrolled into the East Middlesex Militia before 1872. Enlisted & attested 21/1/1876. Posted to the 2nd/24th Foot 22/1/1877. Embarked England for South Africa 1/2/1878. Arrived in East London, Cape Colony, South Africa 9/3/1878. Served in the Ninth Kaffir & Zulu Wars 1878-9. At the Battalion Depot Pietermaritzburg from 1/11/1878 – 20/12/1878. Returned to Service Companies 21/12/1878. Present during the defence of Rorke’s Drift Mission Station, Natal, South Africa 22-23/1/1879. WO97 papers not found at the National Archives. In the Paylists and Muster Rolls he is not mentioned in the Married Establishment.
Robert Adams is a common name. It is obviously two men with the same name. How can someone possibly marry in 1870 in Utrecht, have children born in 1872 and 1875 but also be in England at the same time?
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anorakABO




Posts : 26
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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyMon Apr 11, 2022 2:15 pm

That’s assuming Trooper Robert Adams is correctly identified and that the chronology is correct, and I have no reason to believe it isn’t.

What are the sources for his regimental number and attestation dates etc? Not questioning them, only curious. If the chronology is correct, I agree it’s unlikely. Question though, in the case of Christian Ferdinand Schiess, he was injured and hospitalised at Rorke’s Drift (as was Robert Adams). Do we know when/where Robert Adams was injured?
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyMon Apr 11, 2022 3:42 pm

First, there was no Trooper Robert Adams present at Rorke's Drift and there was no man of that name in any of No. 3 Column's three colonial units. There was a man killed in action at Rorke's Drift named Private Robert Adams 2/24th (Casualty Returns; Paylists and Muster Rolls; Rothwell's HMSO Narrative; Chard's Reprt, etc. etc.)

Secondly, Trooper David Doig's father-in-law Robert Adams undoubtedly existed but there is nothing to connect him with the man of the same name at Rorke's Drift and nothing to suggest he was a Colonial Trooper.  What makes you think there is?

Thirdly, Pte. Robert Adams was a patient in the hospital when the Zulus attacked and took an active part in the defence of the hospital where he was killed in action. Surgeon Reynolds said after the defence that “…He (Adams) was well able to move about but could not be persuaded to leave his temporary refuge in a small room [in Rorke's Drift hospital], and face the danger of an attempt to escape to the laager…”

Lastly, there is no known record of Pte. Robert Adams's illness.
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Eddie




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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 12:25 am

Hi AnorakABO

There was a Trooper J Adams in the mounted police who died in 1879. He was thrown from his horse on Greystown race course, and killed.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 am

Hi anorakABO

The only Gertrude Anna Maria Botha I could find was born May 08, 1885 and died 29 Nov 1956 in Rhodesia. She was never married to a man named Adams I'm afraid. Her husband was, Michael Helgart Thomas Botha. She never had a daughter named Juliza either I'm afraid.

Regards Eddie
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 2:59 am

Hi once again anorakABO

I have something that may help:

Have you ever looked at "Doig.net"- John Doig of Perthshire, it gives your complete family genealogy, and you will find that Juliza's real name is Juliana Juliza Doig (nee Adams).
David's father was John Duff Doig born 1 Feb 1816, died 1 Nov 1875. Sailed to SA on the ship "Devonian" and arrived Oct 1850, last known address Erf 92 Loop street, Pietermaritzburg where John own land.
David Doig born 3 Mar 1851 in Durban, his mother was Agnes Saunders born 28 Oct 1810, died 1 Dec 1880, 30 George Street, Blairgowrie, Perth, Scotland.

In Geni.com it only gives Robert Adams birth date as 1827, no date of death, but his wife is as you say, Gertrude but, it gives her surname as Adams only. Who Robert Adams was we don't know, but he certainly is not the Robert Adams of Rorke's Drift. I have not looked at his service records, it would normally state whether a soldier was married or not.

Regards Eddie
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anorakABO




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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 4:27 am

Hi Eddie, the information on Doig.net is mostly correct. Drummond Craig Doig has participated in that project and has confirmed that they are part of the WILL1750 line of Doigs.

To your other points:
“The only Gertrude Anna Maria Botha I could find…” undoubtedly re: what you could find, however I am quite adept at finding records, especially South African records and I can assure you that Gerbreg Anna Maria Botha b. 1853 married Robert Adams b. 1827 on 27/09/1870. His occupation is given as “Bosch Zager” i.e. Sawyer living at Utrecht.

Part of the issue above was my use of the term “Trooper” versus Private. Faux pas given the nuance of this topic, and what I might consider a simple mistake in the use of a terms becomes a glaring error to others more familiar with the topic.

I have no issue going over old evidence. I wanted information that categorically dissociated the two, instead I was promptly told Private Robert Adams and my Robert Adams are simply two people of the same name, which I was reticent to accept given Trooper David Doig’s experience. I simply wanted to explore that, see what the evidence is that identified Pte Robert Adams at Rorke’s Drift. What was the information that placed him there, at that time, at that place?

I didn’t mean for it to be an insult or a challenge of facts for one moment. I’m still interested, despite all of the above, to learn more about how it was determined that Pte Robert Adams was who he is claimed to be. Medals at auction etc not withstanding.
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John Young

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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 11:41 am

anorakABO,

According to the publication The Noble 24th - Biographical Records of the 24th Regiment in the Zulu War and the South African Campaigns 1877-1879 the personal effects of Private 25th Brigade/987 Robert Adams were claimed by a next-of-kin.  I have found a reference to that which is E/78649/4 AGL 77 on a database maintained by a late friend of mine.

What I would suggest is that you contract a researcher - for a fee - with access to The National Archives, Kew, to see if that next-of-kin’s address is recorded in the surviving available Pay & Muster Rolls of the 2nd/24th, or on the reference number above.  That would either prove or disprove your theory of there being some relationship between Trooper David Doig of the Natal Mounted Police and Private Robert Adams, who according to the known records only arrived in South Africa in March 1878.

His service details were provided by Julian in his above post, to aid any contracted researcher.

I have searched a number of databases on the South African National Archives in search of your Robert Adams.  I found a Robert Adams who was involved in a bankruptcy case in 1860 in the Cape Colony.  I can find no references to a Robert Adams in records held in Natal or the Transvaal both of which at some stage laid claim to Utrecht.

Utrecht was established by Boer trekkers in the late 1840’s, having acquired the land from King Mpande.  The town was very much a Boer community, the notable British settlers there were the Rathbone family.  I have checked the index of The Boiling Cauldron by Huw Jones, which features the Utrecht area prior and during the Zulu War of 1879, there is nothing obvious there relating to anyone named Adams.

Personally, I concur with Julian, there were two men with the same name Robert Adams.  One settler in South Africa, the other a soldier who died at Rorke’s Drift.

JY
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Eddie




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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 1:33 pm

Hi anorakABO

John and I are attempting to assist in your research, no offence was meant by either of us I'm sure.

Having read what research you have unearthed it's seems to me and others that somewhere there has been a misinterpretation of information.
You have stated that Gerbreg Anna Maria Botha was married to Robert Adams, that may be correct, but Julizia's mother's name was completely different, If you were to look at the Genealogy I have mentioned above you will find that is the case.
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anorakABO




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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 2:10 pm

Hi Eddie, of course, that is understood. Re: Juliza Adams, the information on Doig.net is mostly correct, however Juliza’s parents were Robert Adams and Gerbreg Anna Maria Botha. A common anglicisation of Gebreg is Gertrude. I can assure you that this is based on primary evidence (South African Death Notices and Information of Death).

Julian stated that “there was a man killed in action at Rorke's Drift named Private Robert Adams 2/24th (Casualty Returns; Paylists and Muster Rolls; Rothwell's HMSO Narrative; Chard's Reprt, etc. etc.)”

I wanted to confirm that the individual hospitalised at Rorke’s Drift, was one and the same (i.e. of the 2/24ths) by going over the documents and accounts myself. To put it simply, how was he identified, is there more to learn about him given the vastly improved access to records.

I started with the premise that he was Trooper David Doig’s father-in-law (due to age, location, approximate date of death) and posted a hastily drawn conclusion (which included the error “Trooper” Robert Adams). Whilst I still consider it a possibility, until I’ve seen the documents and read the accounts, I do not have any issue withdrawing that conclusion. The more I have to dissociate the two, the better.

Re: the Doig.net genealogy, I am a descendant of the same John Duff Doig you mentioned above and while the information is mostly correct, there are some serious problems with names, dates and relationships when you go over the primary documents. I have corrected much of it, and the information has slowly trickled over to Doig.net.

There’s a wonderful story on Doig.net re: Thomas Doig of Victoria, Australia. It claims Thomas’s blacksmith, unbeknownst to him, had crafted the Kelly Gang’s armor from plow shears. I contacted the Glenrowan Smithy for an insight about it and his reply was “every family in this region has a story about the Kelly Gang”.
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John Young

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Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 2:21 pm

What you have to understand back then when a soldier became “non-effective” his records were destroyed.  So you be unable to see any documents apart from those that you have already been referred to.

That is why I suggested employing a researcher to trawl the available material for you.

JY
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Eddie




Posts : 794
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 65
Location : Newport Wales

Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptyFri Feb 10, 2023 9:22 pm

Hi anorakABO

I sincerely appreciate the amount of research you have completed and I hope you get some clarification soon.

I was wondering why The full name " Juliana (Juliza) Adams" has not been used by yourself in your post. Doig.net states as such, do you think that name is incorrect?
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anorakABO




Posts : 26
Join date : 2015-09-17

Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptySat Feb 11, 2023 3:39 am

Eddie, attached for your interest. First marriage (Adams) and second marriage (Tonkin). Also, Information of a Death that includes birth and married names.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

She remarried 21/09/1905 i.e. Robert Adams died after 23/09/1870 and before 21/09/1905.

There is also a (Boer War) claim for compensation in South African national archives that I have yet to consult:

DEPOT TAB
SOURCE CJC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 15
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE CJC220
PART 1
DESCRIPTION CLAIMS FOR COMPENSATION BRITISH SUBJECTS TRANSVAAL. UTRECHT. GERTRUDE ADAMS.
STARTING 1903
ENDING 1904
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Eddie




Posts : 794
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 65
Location : Newport Wales

Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams   Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams EmptySat Feb 11, 2023 8:54 am

Thank you anorakABO

I was aware Gertrude married twice. All you need now is to find that vital link to Robert Adams. Doesn't your current information point towards the Boer war rather than the Zulu war.
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