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 Ian Knight Questions and answers

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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyMon Apr 26, 2021 8:37 am

I am trying to find the page for Ian Knights questiions and answers we had back some time ago I found the introduction page but I would like Question and Answer page I would love to go through it again please

The link I have is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  

Thanks for your assistance
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyMon Apr 26, 2021 9:21 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyMon Apr 26, 2021 12:30 pm

Thanks Frank

If I remember correctly Ian has always placed Barker on Itusi plus there may be other aspects I can learn from.
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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyMon Apr 26, 2021 12:53 pm

Hi Frank

You mentioned a hill to Ian Bizanani hill were is it ?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyMon Apr 26, 2021 1:01 pm

Inki Bizanani is at the end of the Qwabe valley.
Your right in Barker being on iThusi, Lock and Quantrill in TMFHT place him on Qwabe but Mehlokazulu is very exact with his placing as the ridge overlooking the camp. Its from that placing that the logical choice for Whitelaw is further down the same ridge to the north, around where the village is now as you drive down towards the main road.
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyTue Apr 27, 2021 3:42 am

Hi Frank
Thanks a million mate you answered something I have been after for the last 2 years you mentioned Bizanani hill is at the end of the Qwabe valley. There is a small hill directly in front of Nyezi is this Bizanani hill ? well if it is, its the same hill  Higginson saw those Zulus on, and is the exact location of the Zulu screen covering the Left horn, can you please post a photo of this hill please I would love to be 100% certain before I name this hill on my Panoramas well we are two thirds of the way there Barker sighting the Chest in the location I stated on my previous posts and know Higginson colliding with the Left horn screen on Bizanani.
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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyTue Apr 27, 2021 8:28 am

This photo was taken from Ithusi and shows the hill in question with the village beside it Frank as you can see

Nyezi is directly behind, am I correct in saying this is Bizanani Hill.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Posted on behalf of Aussie Inkosi.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyTue Apr 27, 2021 7:39 pm

Its sometimes called Bizanani. But as you know Inki we disagree wildly on discovery positions, as the left horn was on the plateau (Read Mehlokazulu) there is no reason for a screen to be way over the other side of the valley. As a second point the army was at rest not anticipating any action so why would a screening force. Sorry mate your forcing an issue to fit an idea.

Cheers Mate
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyWed Apr 28, 2021 8:54 am

Hi Frank

I can prove from eyewitness testimony that what Higginson ran into was another Zulu screen just as Barker, Raw and Roberts did,  I have a question for you this hill Higginson saw these Zulus on where is it ? name it please most people has it wrong, Ian even thought is was Mabaso.  Higginson gives us the directions its easy to work out.

Uguku in his testimony even mentions that the inGabamokhosi and uVe regiments where engaged at the time of the discovery as you know I only place 2 maybe 3 regiments in the main discovery the inGabamokhosi was not one of them so how did Uguku know they were being engaged he heard the gunshots he even gives there location to his left. These gunshots which confirmed for Uguku that the inGabamokhosi was engaged were fired by the British infact it was Higginson with Captain Barry who fired those gunshots.  Higginson even mentions they fired at the Zulus coming towards them from this hill. Go back to Uguku he even mentions it was British skirmishers who fired those shots at the inGabamokhosi and uVe regiments it can only be Higginson and Captain Barry no one else was sent out of camp other than those that Colonel Durnford sent out.  It seems to me Durnford sent Higginson and Colour Sergeant Williams to scout the very same ground ahead of his force which by this time is about to leave camp to meet the uVe regiment in the Qwabi valley.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyWed Apr 28, 2021 3:20 pm

Putting the statements into context:

Uguku:"It was our intention to have rested for a day in the valley, where we arrived the night before the battle, but hearing on the morning of the battle the firing of the English advanced guard, who were engaged with Matyana’s men, and it being reported that the nGobamakosi were engaged, we went up from the valley to the top of the Nqutu, (Mabaso hill) which was between us and the English camp. We then found that the nGobamakosi were not engaged, but were quietly encamped lower down the valley. " So no engagement from the nGobamakosi
"We then saw a body of horse coming up the hill from the Isandulu side and towards us. We opened fire on them, and then the whole of our army rose and came up the hill. The enemy returned our fire, but retired down the hill, leaving one dead man (a black man) and a horse on the field."
"The Uve and nGobamakosi then became engaged on our left with the enemy’s skirmishers, Only after fire had already been exchanged and soon after we were all engaged (except the reserve) with the skirmishers of the enemy. We were not checked at all by the skirmishers, but continued our march on the camp.
There is no ambiguity in that statement, the regiments were discovered and shots exchanged in the Ngwebini valley from the top of Mabaso. The original gunshots heard were fired by Lord Chelmsfords men in the Mangeni area. ( a number of years ago I was part of an experiment where some crackers were let of on the Mangeni ridge, pretty large ones, they were heard not only in the Mabaso area but very clearly on the plain in front of iSandlwana.)
Nowhere in Uguku's statement does he say the nGobamakosi were under fire before being discovered by Raw, in fact the opposite, they were "quietly encamped".

Higginsons mention of a 'Hill'.

Soon afterwards Col Pulleine sent me out & Sgt. Major Williams came with me. We found Capt. Barry & Lieut Vereker watching a large force of about 5,000 had gone on around behind the Isandhlwana hill.I remained about three quarters of an hour & then returned to Camp. I found that Col Durnford had arrived and on my going to Col Pulleine to report he refered me to him.Self explanatory, they were on Mkweni
He (Durnford) then turned to me & said “Lieut Higginson, ride out at once to the mounted Contingent & Carbineers, and tell Capt Shepstone to work round to the right of the Koppia that is on the extreme left, & then we will follow them up”. I did so, and on the way out Sergt Major Williams came up to me and asked permission to come with me.
When we got over the hill I found Capt Barry with half of the outlying picket advanced about 2 miles into the plain, and about ½ a mile in rear of the Carbineers & Mounted Contingent. As I came up to him the first shots were fired by the Mounted Contingent at what they thought to be a small body of Zulus, but just as they were getting into Skirmishing Order, about 1,000 men came around the hill and engaged them; they slowly fell back, and as they came up to Capt Barry I left Sergeant Major Williams with him and turned about to ride into Camp to make my Report.
The above is the second mention of a hill, at this time Higginson is very clear that he was on the plain, not the Qwabe valley or and other hill.
He makes no mention of either he, Barry or Williams doing any shooting
At that point Higginson seperates from the melee and rides back to camp.
At the time Higginson visited Mkweni for a second time barry was well advance onto the plain, around 2 miles, Higginson had a long ride to catch up. There is no suggestion anywhere that Higginson was sent to scout ahead of Raw etc, or that Williams was part of those orders. Williams requested that he accompany Higginson, that request occurred as Higginson was on his way out of camp, so definitly not part of Durnfords orders.
Just as an aside, there could have been no collusion between Barry and Higginson or Barry and Williams. Barry was on foot with his men and actually well behind the mounted men. So in actuality if he had been sent out to scout by Durnford it was a rather silly situation to do it on foot.

In terms of timings a very careful time frame schedule will show you exactly who could have been where and when. Never 100% accurate I know but its still a feasible exercise. Keith Smith did a superb job of it.

When Whitelaw rode down off the ridge to meet up with Durnford he made the statement that Durnford was in danger of being surrounded. From his vantage point on the iThusi ridge with Scott he was able to see virtually the full length of the plateau and along to the southern end of Mabaso. He would have watched the regiments progress along the plateau towards the ridge also been able to see the uThulwana etc moving over the tail of the iThusi ridge. Hence he was fully aware that the head start the left horn had, moving along the plateau, with Mehlokazulu to the fore ( a must read, are his statements, plural), and the imminent arrival of the uThulwana had Durnford pretty close to being trapped.

Last points;
Higginson makes no mention of any screening force, unless you believe the force he saw moving behind iSandlwana was that force, if so what would they be screening so well to the west?
Why does Higginson make no mention in his very detailed statement of firing on the Zulu?
Higginson is very clear what his orders were, from Durnford and later from Shepstone.
He is also pretty convincing about where he was when the first shots were fired on the zulus, 1/2 a mile in the rear just catching up with Barry.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Cheers Mate
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyThu Apr 29, 2021 10:29 am

It seems the Uguku account is the same one I have but the Higginson one is different  in many aspects, So lets start with him.  I got my account from Select Documents A Zulu War source book by Keith Smith  from TNA, WO 33/34, Inclosure 3 in No 96, so first we need to know how many statements did Higginson make ? from were did you get your version from because they do not match I presume the TNA confirms the National archive reference number confirming a reliable source.  My version does not state 5,000 going behind Isandlwana my one says the following Large bodies of natives on the hills to the left front of the 2nd Battalion NNC I agree with you there on Mkwene this Frank is not a screen but the right horn moving into position this is before Durnford arrival before 10am this fits my version that the Zulus are pre deploying.  So I have a question for you are these the same Zulus Chard sights ? the time matches.  Then the second paragraph is all different When is starts  "When we got over the hill" so either your version is wrong or my is.

I will quote my one " He then ordered me to follow up the Carbineers and the mounted contingent, who had been sent out to the extreme left of the camp about two miles, and order them to work round the right of the hill in front of the 2nd Battalion NNC" I will come in here and I interpret this  there moving to the right of Mkwene.  I will continue with my version " While he with the rocket Battery worked round the left of it and followed the Zulus up" So you are saying the rocket battery was moving to the left of Mkwene nonsense we all agree Where they ended up dead. Left of the hill in question is clearly Itusi that would mean Barker connected with the rocket Battery to the left of Mkwene, the Rocket Battery was heading towards the notch and as Barker returns to his vidette position he meets up with the rocket battery and instructs them to go to Lieutenant Scott on Amatushane we need to determine which Hill the rocket battery went to the left of  I say Itusi.

I will continue with my version " I rode off, followed by Serjeant Major Williams, and on getting into the plain on the other side of the hill we saw the mounted Contingent about a mile from us, on coming within 200 yards of them I saw Captain Barry, with some of his outlying picquet, and at the same time saw a large number of Zulus coming from the rocks at the foot of the hill".  So what it comes to is your saying Higginson  is on the other side of the hill being Mkwene and 1 mile down the plain he sees a rocky hill there is no rocky hill one mile from Mkwene the only rocky hill is Mabaso and that is further than 1 mile.

I interpret the other side of the hill as being Itusi the Rocket battery going to the left of it and Higginson and Williams the other side being the right of Itusi there you will find a hill you call Bizanani so we interpret it differently it comes to the left of which hill you say Mkwene I say Itusi.

Now concerning Uguku statement which we have identical statements. you stated as follows "  we went up from the valley to the top of the Nqutu, (Mabaso hill) which was between us and the English camp." for starters you placed Mabaso in brackets its not in the original it says  straight Ingqutu only, this is not Mabaso this is the Nqutu ridge were the Videttes are stationed.  This is in fact what Barker discovers at around 11am in the location I told you on previous posts .

What it comes down to is interpretation You and I have interpreted it differently this is why we have come to different conclusions.  But the missing link is Barkers discovery and you still need to give me your location mate WHERE IS IT ?

On your last points you say Higginson makes no mention of Screening force, true I have 2 book cases full of books and not one says once screening force, I am the first one who mentions Zulu screens and that is clear due to trooper Barkers discovery.  On the day of the battle the videttes saw these zulus as scouts or spies that was there mistake Barker proves that they are not scouts but screens concealing a far greater number of zulus.

Regards Inky
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyThu Apr 29, 2021 1:54 pm

Inky I have the two original hand written statements from Higginson written at Rorke's drift on the 17th and 18th feb.
When I have placed in (brackets) or italics its my own notes or comment.

As Ive said in the recent past I cant get to deep into this as my book, currently being edited, is scheduled for release around July/August and it is centred around the activities that took place leading up to the battle.

But really good luck with your theories, what is essential for you though is to put together a time line and a movement schedule. For me thats going to be so interesting.

Cheers


Last edited by Frank Allewell on Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyThu Apr 29, 2021 4:55 pm

AUSSIE
Note that Higginson left a variety of accounts and remarks. All of these are worth checking:
(A) A written Report of 18th February 1879 is held in TNA, W.O. 32/7713/079/1588 (formerly 33/34, p. 276).
(B) A Report to Lord Chelmsford dated 17th February 1879 formerly in the Private Collection of the late Sir Patrick Coghill, Bt., now in the NAM.
(C) A letter by him was also published in the Natal Mercury, 16th May 1879.
(D) A second-hand account in Hamilton-Browne, p. 158.
(E) A second-hand account in Maxwell, pp. 187-8.
(F) An anecdote relating to the death of Lieut. MacDowel R.E. in Mackinnon and Shadbolt, p. 82.
(G) A letter dated 25th January 1879 in the Irish Times, 28th March 1879 (and an inclusion in a letter from ‘SB’ to the editor dated 24th March 1879, Irish Times, 26th March 1879).
(H) A letter dated 9th February 1879 in the Dublin Evening Mail, 31st March 1879, re-printed in the Kerry Evening Post, 2nd April 1879.


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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyThu Apr 29, 2021 11:51 pm

Hi Frank

I will be looking forward to your book mate, yes time lines are important but one places times on how they read interpret there testimony, both of us have eyewitnesses going in all different directions.

Thanks Julian I will send you a private message
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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyTue May 25, 2021 8:12 am

Hi Frank

First I would love the thank Julian with some insight on Higginson report dated the 17th February 1879.
Secondly I did not know Higginson actually made two reports I was basing my findings on his report he gave on the 18th February, So I concluded that Higginson with  Serjeant Major Williams found those zulus running from that rocky hill was down the Qwabi valley but if you read the report he made on the 17th February it is clearly only a short distance from Raw and Roberts so he is going down the Nqutu valley and if you read his testimony he proceeded 2 miles down to the right of Mkwene and then he mentions seeing these Zulus on a hill so after giving this much thought I concluded this hill is in fact the same hill trooper Barker sighted the Zulu army from but Higginson was at its base when he sighted these Zulus he describes it as follows " but just as they were getting into Skirmishing Order, about 1,000 men came around the hill and engaged them; they slowly fell back", its on his report dated the 18th February he describes this hill as a rocky hill and then they started firing at them one other thing I never knew that the Natal Carbineers was only about half a mile behind when the discovery took place.

If you read his testimony Durnford told Higginson to proceed as follows ”. He then turned to me & said “Lieut Higginson, ride out at once to the mounted Contingent & Carbineers, and tell Capt Shepstone to work round to the right of the Koppie that is on the extreme left, & then we will follow them up”. to the right of the Koppie that is on the extreme left this can only be Mkwene in fact there is only one hill between Mkwene and Mabaso and that is the hill the Zulu army was concealed behind.

This testimony on the 17th February  clearly states at around 930am { this time I have included being before the arrival of Durnford } Higginson is on Mkwene and sighted 5,000 Zulus going behind Isandlwana, which confirms my conclusion that the Zulu army is pre deploying before the discovery took place the discovery being around 1145am.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyTue May 25, 2021 8:52 am

Inky be careful with that reference to the Carbineers. There is no other confirmation that they were on the plateau in any significant numbers, excepting of course the vedettes. They were of course operating as a skirmishing party later down on the plain (see Mehlokazulu) along with the NMP, BBG and the NMR etc.
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Bobby Thomson



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptySun Aug 01, 2021 7:58 pm

I have received a South Africa medal 1877 - 8- 9 issued to Lieut F.A Eaton Diamond Fields Horse. Does anybody have any details of this officer on a nominal roll, either Kimberley Light Horse, Du Toitspan Hussars, Diamond Field Horse or Kimberley Rifles. The medal also has what looks like self-made clasps denoting Takoon, Debe Nek and what looks like Gobetsi Heights. Can anybody help please.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptyMon Aug 02, 2021 8:45 am

Bobby
That's Gobatse Heights. You can read about that action in Norris Newman's book p. 91.
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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Location : KENT

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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptySun Aug 08, 2021 8:24 pm

FYI
DIAMOND FIELDS HORSE

Corporals:
P. Davis - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
R.W. McKay - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
A. Muller - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
R. Payne - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
R. Thornton - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878

Troopers:
A. Arnold - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
G. Barrington - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
Bees - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
W. Chapman - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
L. Green - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
C. Hailby - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
J.W. Mathews - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
Williams - killed in action at Gobatse Heights 14 October 1878
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Ian Knight Questions and answers   Ian Knight Questions and answers EmptySun Aug 08, 2021 10:34 pm

Bobby
There was also a death kia at the Langeberg on 12.10.78: 25B 599 Pte. James Edwards 1/24th 1st Squadron IMI.
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