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WeekendWarrior
altfritz
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altfritz




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PostSubject: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptySun Sep 05, 2021 8:24 pm

Well, I hope they aren't old, but I fear they might be!

I have been mildly interested in the Zulu War for some time, but am now preparing to run a wargame of the battle and so am "brushing up" on things, as it were.

You can read some of my initial research of the battlefield here:

Edit: apparently I am not yet allowed to post links!

lohwand.blogspot.com/2021/09/the-battle-of-isandlwana-some - dot- html

I've been using Google satellite imagery to help sort things out:

1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q1a8kO1ojOo/YTUN-phK-oI/AAAAAAAAGFY/0ZVZh49dgYYFjTOmn5dW2Hnj0jMgF-srgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1366/Isandlwana -dot- png (there's a link from my blog post as well.)

1.bp.blogspot.com/-_3K-fNzdfmc/YTUOBQIDe0I/AAAAAAAAGFc/yLegw91Iy-8Rx9cE0BXUa-chAJfOn5-4ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1025/Isandlwana_Topo -dot- png (also part of blog post.)

Some Questions:

1) Can anyone provide a link or name a source for information for the typical layout of a British marching camp? Or of an actual layout of the Isandlwana camp?

2) Where would the ammunition wagons have been? The cooks? The field hospital (if any)?

3) Where would the oxen and wagon horses have been tethered?

4) When did the 3rd Zikali Horse leave Rorke's Drift in the morning, and when did they return?

5) When did they arrive in camp? Did they actually participate in the fighting?

6) Did they deliver Durnford's ammo wagon? And where would they have left it, assuming they were almost immediately put in the firing line?

7) Depending on when they arrived, why didn't they see the Zulu right horn making its sweep?

Thanks In Advance!

Best Regards,

Howard Fielding
CANADA
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyTue Sep 07, 2021 10:59 pm

1. David Jackson has a great breakdown in Hill of the Sphinx.
2. The ammunition wagons would be located in the wagon parks behind each camp. Not sure where Vause left Durnford's ammunition wagon that he escorted in. The 1/24th and 2/24th each had a reserve ammunition wagon. There likely was a third reserve wagon with 2/24th ammunition set aside by QM Bloomfield for Chelmsford's force. I'm pretty sure the NNC had their own ammunition wagons; can't find anything to confirm or deny it. Ditto for the mounted men, primarily armed with Swinburne Henrys.
3. Almost positive behind the camps, not sure where though.
4-5. No. 3 Troop, Zikhali Horse, commanded by Lieut. Wyatt Vause departed Durnford's encampment with the main body of No. 2 Column at around 0730. Upon arrival, No. 3 Troop was sent back to escort in the No. 2 Column wagons. They returned in time to participate in the skirmishing on Mkwene Hill and below the escarpment.
6. That is the real question...
7. They arrived well prior to the right horn emerging from the Manzimnyama River Valley.

I've attached a photo of Wyatt Vause and a period diagram of a British encampment FYSA. Also, welcome to the forum.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyTue Sep 07, 2021 11:03 pm

Here are the pics.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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altfritz




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyTue Sep 07, 2021 11:20 pm

Thanks! Very Happy
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 5:57 pm

1) Can anyone provide a link or name a source for information for the typical layout of a British marching camp? Or of an actual layout of the Isandlwana camp?
As Mike said, see Jackson.

2) Where would the ammunition wagons have been? The cooks? The field hospital (if any)?
Hospital and ammo waggons see Jackson. Cooks in the battalion camps.

3) Where would the oxen and wagon horses have been tethered?
See Jackson.

4) When did the 3rd Zikali Horse leave Rorke's Drift in the morning, and when did they return?
Just after 7.30 am. They returned to escort Erskine's waggons about 10.45 am.

5) When did they arrive in camp? Did they actually participate in the fighting?
About 12.30 pm. They certainly did participate in the fight.

6) Did they deliver Durnford's ammo wagon? And where would they have left it, assuming they were almost immediately put in the firing line?
Not Vause, but Lieut. W. Erskine left the waggons presumably in the waggon park.

7) Depending on when they arrived, why didn't they see the Zulu right horn making its sweep?
They entered the camp before the right horn appeared.
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 4:27 am

Hi Julian

Concerning the location of the ammunition wagons and the hospital I first learnt this by watching the following link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  but I think you need to go to part 2 or 3.  Anyway he mentions the ammunition wagons were parked behind the regimental tents  and the hospital was positioned somewhere behind the mounted Volunteers tents. I then Questioned the Major and he informed me as goes for the ammunition wagons that was correct.

Concerning Durnfords arrival I place it around 10am but as you know we have many different times from those who survived. Concerning the arrival off Durnfords ammunition wagon if I remember correctly after reading Vause account it arrived just as the first action around Mkwene was in progress. Which was shortly after 12 noon.

I am sure Frank can*help you better than myself.

INKY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 7:21 am

Altfritz
Te positioning of the wagons is a mute point. Bottom line is we dont know. I believe they were taken to the Northern most point of the camp that would have been reserved for a Durnford camp site. To me makes no sense they would have been left with the mass on the saddle when all the other regiments had their's available for their tents provisions etc.
It also then makes sense that the wagons couldn't be found to access the spare ammunition. Ive never quite figured that reasoning. All/most of the wagons were scheduled to go back to RD with Smith Dorrien that morning so would be visibly empty, obviously empty from the back of a horse. The exceptions being Durnfords wagons that would have been piled high with goods. Should have been easy to spot. But if they had been taken to the designated camp area they would have been well out of sight.
A key element in wading through the 13 seperate times given for Durnfords arrival is to look at Wally Erskin's testimony on the timing of his arrival at the Bashe, gives a very good pointer.
Stafford mentions that he was told by Durnford to issue ammunition, ergo, Staafford was at the camp along with the wagons and Durnford, all at the same time.

Hope that helps rather than confusing you.

Cheers

Cheers
Just my thoughts.
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peter@zuluwars




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 9:11 am

Good morning all,

Further to the question of the layout of the Isandlwana Camp, I have a copy of the layout drawn by the Natal artist in 1998, namely the late John Churchill Simpson. The latter's paintings were sought after and sold, in the 1990's for excess of R8,000.
The late Ron Lock and I took him up to the battlefield and spent a couple of days there walking the site and taking photos. We also used primary source material that reflected anything to do with the camp layout.
The painting took many hours with Ron & I sitting by his side correcting any perceived mistakes.
The tents reflect the exact amount present with the wagons reflected on the neck.
The original, some 3 feet long by 2 feet in length hangs in my study. I had copies made and if anyone is visiting Durban they are welcome to a gratis copy.

Peter Q.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 9:27 am

Peter Q Im in Durban PMB and Isandlwana next week hopefully if I may I would like to take you up on the offer.

Frank
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peter@zuluwars




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 9:39 am

Frank,,

Do you know Kloof at all?
It's on the way to PMB. I can leave a copy if that is the acceptable at the Biltong shop
situated in the Kloof Mall. It is a large shopping area the include Virgin Active and Pick n Pay.

Does that suit you?

Peter

Peter Q.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 10:03 am

Thank you Peter, I do know the mall, on the side of the freeway. I will know by tomorrow if the trip is on and will let you know in good time.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 10:11 am

Taking Durnford's ammo waggons to the Northern most point of the camp (allegedly reserved for his camp site) only makes sense if Durnford believed he would be remaining in camp. Clearly he didn't as he stated himself. It does makes sense for them to be left on the saddle if he was anticipating leaving again shortly (again which he clearly did from his own remarks on arriving there). Whatever he believed his orders to have been, or his interpretation of them, they did not involve "staying in camp".

My timings are based on my own analysis of all the accounts' timings and events, correlating one with another. There will inevitably be some 'slippage time' in this but I am reasonably sure in myself that they are more or less accurate.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 11:27 am

Julian why would Durnford not believe he was staying. His orders were to make his way to the camp. The fact that he was quite prepared to go of hunting ( hence the convesation with Pulleine and the 'Im not staying remark") doesnt really have a baring in the place he would rest his head? He had to have a base to operate from there isn't a viable alternate to the camp at iSandlwana surely? If that hypothesis works then there would be every reason to have his wagons in the correct place.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 1:32 pm

Frank
It all rather depends on what Durnford thought his orders were.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 3:59 pm

Sorry Julian cant buy that. He was at some point going to eat and go to sleep. He needed a base so it would have to have been iSandlwana if only for the one night before moving up with Pulleine to join Chelmsford. BUT he didnt know that Chelmsford was going to be calling the balance of the column to join him, Gardner hadnt arrived yet.
Frank
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 11:27 pm

Of course Frank, you must think as you wish. I do intend to publish something on this subject at a later date with more information fleshed out. Make, then, of it what you will.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyFri Oct 01, 2021 4:34 am

Looking forward to that Julian
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyFri Oct 01, 2021 10:20 am

Peter Q
Thanks for the offer Peter but my trip has been postponed for a couple of weeks.

Regards

Frank
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyMon Oct 04, 2021 11:47 am

Peter Q
Trip is back on track, I will be in Pine Town on the morning of the 12th I f I may again take you up on your offer? Whats the name of the Biltong shop?

Regards

Frank
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peter@zuluwars




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyMon Oct 04, 2021 2:15 pm

Frank,

The name is "Just Biltong' --- Fields Shopping Centre, Kloof.
But please e-mail me a day or so before arrival for safety purposes, as things go missing if left too long!

Kind regards,

Peter
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyMon Oct 11, 2021 11:04 am

Peter I will be in Pinetown tomorrow morning

Frank
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peter@zuluwars




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyMon Oct 11, 2021 1:14 pm

Frank,

Thank you for your message.

Suggest we meet at the shop 'Just Biltong' in Kloof, at 1200 hrs.
Pinetown is about 10 minutes drive to Kloof and you may have to ask where the Kloof Shopping Centre is located. The Centre has two anchor tenants, namely Virgin Active and Pick n Pay.

Please let me know the safe arrival of this message, and see you tomorrow.

Kind regards,

Peter
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyMon Oct 11, 2021 2:42 pm

Hi Peter
I picked it up on line at the 'Fields Hill Shopping Centre'.
12 sounds about right. If you would like to leave a contact number on a PM I can let you know how im running? Otherwise 12 should be fine. Im meeting other forum members there slighty later as well.
Thanks Again
Regards

Frank
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peter@zuluwars




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyMon Oct 11, 2021 4:06 pm

Hello Frank,

I will be there a tad earlier, say 1145, if that helps.

Kind regards,

Peter
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyMon Oct 11, 2021 5:51 pm

Thats great Peter look forward to meeting you.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 2:36 pm

Hi Peter
Sorry for the confusion today. My early appointments were cancelled and to fit them in at a later point I had to get up to iSandlwana earlier than anticipated. I asked Ronald to pick up for me as I couldnt contact you but he had car troubles hence you meeting his lovely lady. So probably it was a better experience chatting to her than me. Sad

Admin
Sorry for being way of topic, consider this a grovelling apology.
Frank
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peter@zuluwars




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 3:46 pm

Hello Frank,

No doubt that you have received the books and maps but please do not worry, as Ronald's lovely lady compensated for your non arrival!

But do hope that you be back in the area soon when we can have a good natter.

Kind regards,

Peter
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyFri Oct 15, 2021 8:08 am

Hi Peter
I eventually managed to meet up with Ronald yesterday on the way back from the airport. I must say when you said you had a spare map I was not expecting all your book copies, the DVD etc. What a wonderful surprise, and a most generous gift.
i will hopefully be back in KZN the first week in November, a meeting with you will be first date in the diary. again thank you for your outstanding generosity.

Regards

Frank
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peter@zuluwars




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PostSubject: Re: New Member - Old Questions?   New Member - Old Questions? EmptyFri Oct 15, 2021 8:53 am

Hello Frank,

Only a pleasure and look forward to hearing from you in November.

Kind regards,

Peter
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