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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 1:59 pm

The Thomas Anstey maps are official documents. The notes on copies found in the RE museum are not.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 2:37 pm

Michael,

I thought Anthony’s direct question to me related to H.G. Mainwaring’s map, rather than that of Thomas Anstey & Cooper Penrose, or am I in error?

JY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 2:40 pm

You in error John? God forbid ! Thats akin to saying Balls to the Colonel Suspect Very Happy
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 2:46 pm

Aussie
Just to remind you that as far as I'm concerned, we have agreed to disagree about your 'theory'. So, I'm not going to comment on it. However, to answer your ten specific and unrelated questions and to clarify the other points you raise:
1) The map No. 3 is not an official map. The annotations have been drawn on to Anstey's 'official' blank map. That does not make the annotations have any authority or put an official stamp on them. If I take a WWII military map from the memoirs of Winston Churchill, and annotate it, it does not make the map I have produced 'official' and it does not make it Churchill's. So it is with the map you posted.
2) I know full well that the map No. 3 is signed at the bottom by Anstey. I found the map. I know every inch of it. But that makes not a ha'p'orth of difference as to its official standing. And it does not mean that the annotations can be associated with Anstey's beliefs.
3) I did not write that Henderson drew the map for private reasons. I wrote that it was likely that he did so.
4) The proof that map No. 3 had no official standing lies in the fact, as I have already written above, that the Chatham maps (& their kin) - in fact all the Durnford Papers - did not see the light of day between when they were written and 1989 when they were found. They are not referred to in any contemporary document or by any person from the time. The reference against their accession numbers in the RE Museum indicates that they had belonged to Frances Colenso and were deposited there probably after her death. Hence my suggestion that she collected them together for private purposes: to aid in her campaign to clear Durnford's name You can read the details in 'Isandhlwana and the Durnford Papers', The Soldiers of the Queen, Journal of the VMS, March 1990, issue 60 and re-printed & updated in Studies in the Zulu War vol I.
5) You wrote that I don't believe Barker because "I believe it cannot be proven he wrote it down in 1910." You are putting words in my mouth; I have never said that. Nor would I. What is the case is that I don't believe that any reliance can be put on Barker's account regarding the timing and order of events (though not the events themselves) precisely because he DID write them down c. 1910 - over thirty years later! Memory deteriorates and details become blurred.
6) Re your comment: "then you have a map signed by Thomas Anstey in 1879 the brother of Edgar Anstey one of the life's lost in the battle it seems you pick and choose what you believe", I think you are confusing two unrelated items. I have never said that Anstey did not create the original blank map in 1879 on to which the annotations were made. Of course he did. I have nowhere said that I do not believe Henderson's annotations on that map to be inaccurate. Of course they are accurate. You don't seem able to understand that Anstey's original map was printed many times over and used as templates for the creation of many subsequent maps (of which the one I found and you posted was one).
7) Lieutenant Mainwaring's map was drawn by him and was known about at the time. Of course it's an official map. I have nowhere said that it isn't. I don't quite see its relevance in this matter.
8) Likewise I have nowhere written that Davies's February account is invalid. Of course it is. All Davies's accounts need to be examined.
9) I repeat that Barker on no occasion specifically mentioned Scott's location.
10) All officers were not issued with field glasses. And in no account does Davies mention that he observed the Zulus or anything else using a pair.
I've tried to answer your questions as clearly and fully as possible and hope that they clarify the situation and especially your confusion regarding the facts relating to map No. 3.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 2:54 pm

John
I think AUSSIE directed questions at both you and I on Mainwaring's map.
AUSSIE
Of course Mainwaring's map is not a fake.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 6:43 pm

For what it's worth, there is a map by James Hamer and copied by Frank Jackson that illustrates where the 'Beef on the hoof!' were first seen and where the Zulus were first seen in large numbers. It's mislabeled in the 'Ashes and Blood' NAM gallery book and does tend to discredit the assertion that the discovery 'ridge' was the Nyoni escarpment itself. It also alludes to two more maps Hamer sent to the War Office.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 10:44 pm

Julian

 lets start with your last line.  I am not confused.

!0. As I have proved from my Panorama Scott could see Nyezi from Amutshane  and you dont need field glasses to see that far. 

9.  I said indirectly, you need to work it out yourself. Another Example Barker meets up with the rocket battery Russel wants to go up the ridge and Barker said not to, go to Scott and your saying his on Itusi you need to climb the ridge then. Your confused not me.  You still need to provide the source concerning Scott changing his location from Amutshane to Itusi there is no source its FAKE.

8. You confirmed Davies account in February is valid he said Scott was on the pointed hill and was told not to leave it by Pulliene So his statement is valid.

7. Good we both agree the Mainwaring is official, I did not say it was fake

6.  So you are saying the annotations showing the locations of the regiments is added later can you prove this and the identity of the person who made those annotations and when. Have you considered maybe its Anstey ? 

5. You can not prove Barkers testimony was written 30 years latter Nor can I prove it was written shortly after the battle So its a stand still.

4. We then need to confirm who are those annotations and when they were added.

3. Where does Henderson fits in all this ? ,and then you said its likely we need facts not assumptions.

2.  If what you say concerning the annotations are true then another official in the military could of added those regiments You need to prove someone privately did it then.

1. I would like to see Ansty's  Blank map before the annotations please.

It seems Julian we have different points of view.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 10:58 am

AUSSIE
I'm sorry but this is ludicrous.  I have said we must agree to disagree.  The answers to some of your replies 1-10 I and others above have already answered in previous posts.  I'm not going to repeat them ad infinitum.  As for the rest they do not require answers.  They have been in the public domain for years.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 12:59 pm

Just as an aside, I am always quite sceptical, when I read that 'so and so said that's where 12000 Zulus sprang into sight' (or whatever). It's hard for the human mind to comprehend large numbers - even militarymen struggle. If the men were in companies or battalions, in close order, it would be fairly easy to to guestimate the number but given the terrain, the loose order of the Zulus, troop moving, heat haze or whatever. I once did an exercise with Xs printed on an A4 page - people who saw the regular blocks of crosses could estimate more accurately than the ones who had the same number of crosses randomly on the page....stange what you get upto on evening shift in a biscuit factory....
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90th

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PostSubject: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana    Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 1:29 pm

Just don't burn them Simon !
90th Salute
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 2:02 pm

SRB
I did an exercise in trying to represent with rectangular blocks the physical presence of the iNgobamakhosi on a 2D map in bodies of 80 men per iviyo (if each man covered 2 square yards) with suitable gaps in between just to picture how much ground they might cover. The result is on p. 63 of Studies in the Zulu War vol. V. I also tried the same thing on the same page with the small bodies of NC and NMP confronting them. The result is fairly horrendous to look at in terms of the relevant sizes of the two groups.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 2:31 pm

In the rugby world cup one of the english chaps could be seen counting the springboks, he looked very puzzled ad counted again before wandering of shaking his head.
Just easing into the world of academia.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 2:34 pm

Aussie, if you want the original Thomas Anstey map, I'll send it to you.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 2:43 pm

Frank
Given the current state of our education system no wonder he was having trouble...
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 3:34 pm

JW, I've often thought about taking photos of my Wargames collection and copying and pasting them (multiple times) to try and get the appropriate look. Ideally you need 15mm or 10mm - figure height) for that kind of thing though...
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 4:02 pm

For perspective, look at the max capacity of major sports stadiums. Petco Park, in San Diego CA, for example can hold over 40,000. It's a simply staggering number of people.
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SRB1965

SRB1965


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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 4:25 pm

Yes, stadia can hold an immense number but the real estate for a deployed or bivouacing army is much more, you will probably find that 20000 Zulus in the field would look a lot less than 20000 in a stadium....Theres photos of various British battalions in column of companies and it looks really small..... 50 men wide (company in 2 ranks) 8 companies deep, so it's 50 men wide by 16 men deep.... (plus hangers on etc)
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 4:37 pm

I'm more speaking from the post event crowds. As a law enforcement Officer I've dealt with Taylor Swift concert attendees more frightening and dangerous than any amabutho!
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 4:40 pm

Simon
I'm not so sure.  I read somewhere that a fully-kitted out Zulu with shield and pointy things needed 2 square yards in which to operate i.e. jog, fight, run.  Spread out, a line of Zulus is going to cover more ground than one line in a sardine-packed, shoulder-to-shoulder football stadium.
Mike
Does that include Taylor Swift herself?
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 5:20 pm

I'm sure I'd be worthy of a breakup song to the tune of 'Men of Harlech' or perhaps 'Garryowen'.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 5:30 am

WeekendWarrior wrote:
Aussie, if you want the original Thomas Anstey map, I'll send it to you.
What I want is for any one to prove those regiments were placed later on by someone other than the Military otherwise this is a fruit less exercises. If your going to say these are frauds then proof is required.

Then if no proof is brought forward then I have my answer.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 8:55 am

AUSSIE
What I was trying to explain to you before calmly, but perhaps poorly, was that the topography of the map, surveyed by Anstey, was created first, as a base for others to use once many were printed off. Mike has I hope sent you a 'blank' base by now. These are printed maps.
One of these was then drawn on at a later date in pencil by Henderson showing the Zulu regiments and attacks. It's initialled. The date he did it is unknown but presumably soon (within a couple of years) after Isandhlwana because it ended up in the hands of Frances Colenso. At some point before or after this, it was imperfectly overdrawn in ink, perhaps by Wood. The RE Museum recorded it was part of a group of docs from Frances Colenso so was given probably soon after her death in the early 1880s.
This map appeared in no govt. narrative, book, survey, or description of the battle., contemporary or later. No writer, politician or soldier mentioned it. Its purpose is unknown but it had nothing to do with Anstey. David and I found it in a drawer of a map chest in the lower cellars of the museum in 1989 and published an article about it, with the other docs in 1990.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 9:16 am

Julian thanks for your reply

So If I get you correctly you are saying Henderson penciled in the regiment locations  and he initail it .
This is the same Henderson that was with Durnford correct ?

So the locations of the regiments were placed their by Henderson. 

So Henderson most likely was taken to the location by one of the eyewitnesses Raw, Hamer someone else after the battle and was shown the location.

Do we have Henderson copy, or version and does it matches the one I posted ?

Would it not be more authentic if he mark the regiment locations
Than
Thomas Anstey who was not their on the day

I still dont understand why its a Fake if Henderson mark the regiment locations
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 9:29 am

AUSSIE
To reply to each of your lines in turn:
Yes, Lieut. Henderson NNH drew the map.
Yes, the regiments' locations were placed there by Henderson.
I doubt whether Henderson was 'taken' to X by Raw/Hamer.  They would have been engaged on their various duties during 1879.  I suspect the X as a location was described to Henderson by Raw/Hamer afterwards and he noted down an approximate position on the map.
The one you posted IS Henderson's map.
Anstey did not mark the regimental locations.  The locations are in pencil then ink.  Anstey only drew an original topographical base map showing physical features, contours, dongas, etc.  All the detail relating to the battle is in pencil/ink.
The map is not a fake.  It is authentic.  100%.  No-one has ever said that it is a fake.

P.S. I'm glad we're corresponding calmly again. Let's try to keep it that way.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 9:43 am

Julian

I will be as calm as possible

You said The Map I posted is Henderson Map. correct

The last line you said the map is not a fake. This is the one I posted. correct.

So my question is.  The locations of the regiments on Hendersons map the one I posted are they in the correct locations
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 11:46 am

AUSSIE
They are in the positions that Henderson believed they were in.
My opinion is that he was correct although there are a couple of names left out which it couldn't be expected he'd know.
Again, this would have been from information he would have gathered after the battle (after the war?)
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 5:07 pm

Julian

So the only issue is I called it official when its not seeing it gives the impression Anstey placed in the regiment locations

But its an accurate map concerning the locations of the regiments.

You said the following

My opinion is that he was correct although there are a couple of names left out which it couldn't be expected he'd know.   
 which names are these ?


Thanks for clearing this up.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 6:45 pm

My pleasure. Glad we did it.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 3:10 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The map by Capt. Thomas Anstey, RE.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 3:21 am

Thanks Mike and Julian

So Henderson penciled in the regiment locations on this one and initial it

Thanks

 I need to know these regiment  locations are accurate from the British point of view to see if they match with Zulu testimony.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 6:03 am

Aussie dont loose sight of the positions on the Anstey map being second hand. There are no maps by those who were on the plateau apart from Hamer, and his is rather worthless. A more accurate source would be the various Zulu statements that do position the order.
Your positioning on a map probably carries as much weight as anyone elses, we are all guessing albeit based on testimonies, scale rules, and for me a bottle of Gin and tonic. There is no definitive document map or source that will place them for you.
L and Q probably attempted more than anyone to prove the positions and have fallen short according to the illuminati. We've all had a go but its a case of weighing up the objections, finalising a time frame, discarding peripheral commentaries and then giving your thumb a good hard suck. Very Happy Very Happy Joker
Cheers mate,
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 6:33 am

Frank and Julian 

Thanks for all your help I understand its second hand knowledge, but Henderson bring a new slant to the issue, he must have been in contact with some of the eye witnesses.

Just from those three maps I learnt something that I have overlook and it was in front of my eyes all the time.

Remember Uguku said they heard the gunshots and thought the inGabakmakosi was engaged only to find out the firing came from Mangeni and then he said they went to the Nqutu.

Well I always wanted to know the name of those line of hills running from Mkwene to Mabaso Go to map 2 and it clearly says the Nqutu hills that is the spot Uguku said they went.

So this is confirmation 100% thats where they hid until the discovery and then at 11am Barker discovers them

All is fitting in its place Frank.

Your help is paying dividends, thanks
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 7:48 am

AUSSIE
There are just a few survivors who describe the regiments facing them which help give an indication of which regiment they came from. One or two name them. Others just remarked on a distinguishing feature like wearing a red feather. Henderson's regtl. names are good, the locations cannot be regarded as totally precise.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 8:06 am

Julian

Uguku came from the umCijo regiment on the Hendersons Map he named it umCitwya these two regiments came from the same corp called umCitwya just a name mix up

The other regiment is the Nokenke I have a zulu witness also confirming his advance to the Nqutu

Both these regiments were sighted by Barker at 11am around 45 minutes before the discovery in the dead ground beside that donga that flows down from the Nqutu

The right horn was sighted by Higginson, Barry, Vereker, Sergeant Major Williams plus 100 NNC at  930am and is confirmed also in Hendersons map. Confirmed in Higginsons 17th Feb testimony
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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 8:17 am

I'm sure you'll find more.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyMon Nov 15, 2021 11:56 am

It would be interesting to get some ariel photos - (Google earth or whatever) and mark on the vidette position and what was dead ground to them.... I might have a go....
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Hidden Ground at Isandlwana   Hidden Ground at Isandlwana - Page 4 EmptyMon Nov 15, 2021 8:53 pm

Hi SRB1965

I just look at google earth last night and it does not show the dead ground at all I have some photos which clearly shows the dead ground visible from Mkwene and Itusi next time I am there I need to take a panorama from the Nqutu hills [ which is the highest point in the area } which overlook the discovery location and from there you would see Itusi, Mkwene and Nyezi which is very important because thats is were those 2 regiments moved from.

Is there some other provider that shows arial views ? Google does not show the folds and rises in the land which the zulu used to conceal themselves
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