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SRB1965

SRB1965


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PostSubject: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 3:04 pm

Frank,

Sitting listening to TMS and the latest batting collapse.....

Davies says "we marched to just beyond the Natal Native tents and the RB etc arrived about this time"

Where did the RB and Natal Natives arrive? In camp or near to Davies? Where was Davies? Presumably by the NNIC camp......

Trooper Molife says that "the Colonel returned to the Generals tent and had breakfast without sitting down"

Presumably he means HBPs tent at the rear of the 1/24th camp….but how would Molife know about where AWD was and his not sitting etc unless he was in sight of the tent?

He then says they head cross country towards the ridge.

Johnson says "AWD came down from the camp of the 1/24th…." Up and down are arbitrary but down indicates to me, well down. - if I was on the saddle or the North of the camp - maybe up….

Is it possible that only part of AWDs column went north to wait by the NNIC but half of it waited somewhere around the 1/24th camp?

Also Brickhill says they went to the right of the conical hill (CH) but depending where he viewed from, AWDs NNMC would go to the right of the CH - was it just right of the CH (skirting it) or a sweeping right around the CH......just playing Devils Advocate mate....


Cheers

Sime


Last edited by SRB1965 on Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:04 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 3:33 pm

Is it possible that AWDs (Henderson and Davies) left the area of the 1/24th camp, crossed the Nyogane, then headed cross country round the right of the CH - sort of at 45°?
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 5:08 pm

"Where did the RB and Natal Natives arrive? In camp or near to Davies? Where was Davies?"
Davies was by the northernmost NNC camp.

"How would Molife know about where AWD was and his not sitting etc unless he was in sight of the tent?"
AWD's column would have passed by the tent as they moved behind the tents to reach the NNC camp.

"AWD came down from the camp of the 1/24th…." Up and down are arbitrary but down indicates to me, well down. - if I was on the saddle or the North of the camp - maybe up…."
Johnson was with the RB. I don't think he meant literally 'down' or 'up' -he was just referring to his arrival from the tent.

"Is it possible that only part of AWDs column went north to wait by the NNIC but half of it waited somewhere around the 1/24th camp?"
No indication of that from the evidence.

"Also Brickhill says they went to the right of the conical hill (CH) but depending where he viewed from, AWDs NNMC would go to the right of the CH - wasit just right of the CH (skirting it) or a sweeping right around the CH......just playing Devils Advocate mate...."
So they did. To the right of CH. Brickhill would have been near the rear of the camp (1/24th tents).
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 5:24 pm

So that is assuming that the column was marching passed the tent while AWD was having breakfast/dinner.

But Brickhill mentions some Zulus being took to the column office and then to AWD behind the NNIC camp.

AWD gave his units orders about where to go, then Molife says he returned from sending out the above men....to have  breakfast etc

Then he set off with his 2 troops.

If one was stood in the 1st/24th camp, the troops riding out along the track would have appeared to have gone to the right of the CH (once leaving the track)

It all depends on time line time of the statements and how they relate to each other in time.
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptySun Oct 29, 2023 11:08 pm

SRB
I've pm'd you.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 5:14 am

Sime
Sunday morning woke up with a hangover after the rugby celebrations. I will get back to you later. Key issue though is the amount of space that is taken up by over 200 horses etc.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 7:25 am

No worries - being a England supporter, I have had no reason lately to get myself hungover.....
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 7:45 am

Hi Simon
Your thoughts are highly possible, We will never accuratly know unless some magic diary appears.
My thoughts are in orange:

Davies says "we marched to just beyond the Natal Native tents and the RB etc arrived about this time"
When Davies first arrived they formed up "somewhere in the centre of camp just beyond the ammunition wagons ". Durnford left them for a while and when he returned moved them to beyond the NNC tents.

Where did the RB and Natal Natives arrive? In camp or near to Davies? Where was Davies? Presumably by the NNIC camp......
As they were part of the same column I would believe that they joined up on arrival, still to the north of the NNC area. In a second statement Davies clarifies that, "they passed through the centre of the camp."


Trooper Molife says that "the Colonel returned to the Generals tent and had breakfast without sitting down"
Molife mentions a number of points in his statement covering the period he was in camp, this tends to put him in close proximity to Durnford. He says that "the Colonel returned from sending out the above men (Raw etc) that seems to suggest that he, Molife, remained by the tent area.
Presumably he means HBPs tent at the rear of the 1/24th camp….but how would Molife know about where AWD was and his not sitting etc unless he was in sight of the tent?


He then says they head cross country towards the ridge.

Johnson says "AWD came down from the camp of the 1/24th…." Up and down are arbitrary but down indicates to me, well down. - if I was on the saddle or the North of the camp - maybe up….

Yes the saddle is at a slightly higher level

Is it possible that only part of AWDs column went north to wait by the NNIC but half of it waited somewhere around the 1/24th camp?

Its all about the space really. 4 companies of mounted men occupy a very large piece of ground. But even assuming they were split I cant imagine Durnford would split his column for his advance!.

Also Brickhill says they went to the right of the conical hill (CH) but depending where he viewed from, AWDs NNMC would go to the right of the CH - was it just right of the CH (skirting it) or a sweeping right around the CH......just playing Devils Advocate mate....
Durnfords whole demeanor was impatience, he wanted to 'wash his spears' so to speak. I think he would take the shortest possible route.

Hope that lot helps.

Cheers

I still cant figure out whats happening to the England cricket team, from world champs to struggling to win a game ? Something wrong coming out of lords mate. Even Big Bens attitude was so unlike him.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 8:35 am

SRB
Hope the pm was of use.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 8:50 am

Yes thank you Julian, I'm just reading through it and I will get back to you with a couple of comments.

Thanks

Simon
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyMon Oct 30, 2023 12:13 pm

Simon
Thanks for the comments.

Vause’s decisions on arrival at the camp:
Either way, the order for Vause to accompany Raw/Roberts was countermanded and he went back to escort the wagons into camp. Vause was supposed to rejoin Durnford – though how he was supposed to know here he had gone, goodness knows! This becomes irrelevant by the time Vause does arrive in camp because the action has started at the top of the spur where his NNH fellows are – and this is where he takes his troop.

Durnford’s words to Higginson:
“Lieut Higginson, ride out at once to the N.N. Mounted Contingent & Carbineers and tell Captn. Shepstone to work round to the right of the koppie that is on the extreme left of the Camp, while I with the Rocket Battery will work round to the left., and then we will follow them up.”
The koppie referred to can only be Mkwene given Shepstone’s location.

Stafford’s accounts
I too am not convinced that Stafford was a particularly accurate witness in his later accounts.
When he also says that the horses had "hardly been off saddled" I do think he was referring to his own and his officers’ NNC horses and not the NNH as Molife does specifically say that they did not off saddle. As you say, it may have been an expression of time.

Pulleine’s location:
It is logical that Pulleine would have moved his base to the HQ tent on assuming command but “Pulleine’s tent” is always referred to. It may be that he preferred operating from there given the short time he expected to be in command of the camp – a day?.

Frank
I sent Simon my refined Stafford-Durnford in camp Chronology which I sent you a while back so that we are all using the same hymn sheet.

I agree with all your statements made about Davies’s location in camp on arrival, ditto the RB/NNC, Molife, the non-splitting of Column No.2, and the shortest route.

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyTue Oct 31, 2023 9:33 pm

I was interested to to read the Molife said just as they reached the outskirts of the camp, they met Henderson who took them to their own wagons for ammo.

This means that at some point, the waggons were found but also Henderson was not present with his troop for the latter part of the defence of the donga.

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyTue Oct 31, 2023 11:57 pm

Molife dos say before this, that Henderson and another (Davies) were sent back from the donga for ammunition. I imagine that Durnford thought that the 2 Europeans would fare better in finding the waggons and obtaining ammunition than their African troopers. When the two troops retreated, they then met their officers on the outskirts of camp and were taken to the ammunition waggons.
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 6:13 am

I have a feeling that there was a mention, possibly Stafford, of being sent to issue ammunition. Thats before the battle.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 6:32 am

Hiya,

That was prior to the battle - if you look through the articles JW sent you, its in there.

An extra 20 rounds I believe.
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 6:35 am

Did I just get my hand slapped?  Shocked
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 8:31 am

Shaken not slapped.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 8:37 am

This incident appeared in one of Stafford's more unreliable testimonies in which names, events, and the sequence of events become very confused. It occurred after a meeting with Pulleine just after 10.30 a.m.:
"When we got back to the wagons and the Camp…Durnford ordered me to issue each man with 20 rounds of ammunition…"
So, there's no guarantee the statement is correct.
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 9:51 am

Obviously at the end of the day this has no bearing on the outcome but sending back both his officers does seem a little rash.

His troopers were spread out probably in fairly loose order, with the enemy potentially closing, and running low on ammo.

This is mitigated by the need for ammo, the fact that the NNMC were defending a static line/terrain feature and they did have NCOs.

I would assume that troopers were sent back with the officers (depleting the firing line a little) so perhaps one officer would have sufficed - I spose that logically the wagons must have been near to the track (unless they had been parked behind the NNIC camps - which given the way events were unfolding, I think, is unlikely)


PS I've just read that Davies took 15 troopers with him to fetch ammunition.
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 10:36 am

SRB
2 English-speaking officers get the job of finding the ammo waggons done twice as fast as one.
The ammo would need to be carried back - rope ends to the boxes, 2 riders needed - so probably 8 boxes brought back, each one containing 600 rounds i.e. 18 rounds per NNH trooper.
You wrote that the enemy was "potentially closing" which I don't think was necessarily so. I do think that Durnford's donga force was definitely being outflanked by Zulus almost out ofrange and that that was the reason behind Durnford's withdrawal. A case of needs must.
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 11:31 am

Another thing into the mix is, say for the sake of my math, the troops were 48 strong....1 in 4 householders, takes them down to 36 strong....15 men ride back, that takes us down to 21 but you get 3 or 4 householders back into the line - so one of the troops is down to 24 or 25 men on the troop firing line.

Did Henderson go back alone? Probably not for the same reasons as Davies took some men with him.

It does say that once the Zulus before the NNMC went to ground, AWD orderd his men to fire in support of G and H. So when I say potentially closing - yes the Zulus weren't closing but they hadn't all swept to AWDs right - many would have still been to the NNMC front - waiting an opportunity.

I totally agree that AWD was running or had run out of options and had to retire on the camp.

If he stays - he cops it and later G Coy etc.....if he goes G Coy cops it and himself later.....what was it in the Jams song...."if I stay there will be trouble, if I go there will be double"

Now that's an idea - "Isandlwana the Musical".....
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 11:49 am

SRB
In England's Sons p. 13 & 19I computed the number of Africans in the NNH to be 267. Troops 4 and 5 had 54 African troopers each. I think the 15 come from both troops, not each one. You can do the maths!
Davies and Henderson were sent back at the same time.
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SRB1965

SRB1965


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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 1:07 pm

I assumed it was 48 because it made the 1 in 4 horseholders easier (I was too lazy to divide 54 by 4)....🙂
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 5:12 pm

I knew my grade 3 at O level would come in handy one day.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 5:15 pm

Ive always believed in the testimonies, including Stafford, but quite possibly/probably there is confusion after the trauma and time frame. I believe that all the old statements have elements of truth and fact but miss remembered in terms of times distance and place. 
Stafford in particular. Im gone through his testimomy and statements time after time, I believe him. Mixed up maybe.
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SRB1965

SRB1965


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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 5:29 pm

Yes possibly so Frank.....its a wonder anyone could remember any events in or of the battle, let along conversations.....I do like reading the Nourse/Stafford accounts of the flight to Fugitives Drift and trying to work out where the truth lies...
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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyWed Nov 01, 2023 10:56 pm

I'd go along with that but I think there must be an element of absorption by which I mean Stafford read or heard someone else's story and, well, sort of absorbed or incorporated it so that by the time he was a very old man it became his own. The result was that he really believed he had overheard the Pulleine-Durnford conversation, for example. It's what I've referred to before (to quote Shakespeare) as an old man remembering with advantages.
There was a study recently of WW1 veterans' later reminiscences for the WW1 BBC series in the 60s which did not correlate with the actual events. The veterans really believed what they had said they'd seen or done yet it had not happened.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyThu Nov 02, 2023 4:21 am

I had similar problems with my old dad (I will keep this brief because he wasn't in the Zulu War!)

He was invited to help out in the Suez Crisis - he used to tell me tales about his adventures (nothing heroic just mundane things) - when he had 'gone', I decided to put the tales to paper, for the family history box (along with his GSM and army records).

With the power of the Internet I decided to corroborate and expand- with dates these events.

I couldn't find evidence for any one of them….however each tale (accidental discharge, RTA and military stupidity) has a basic theme - I now believe they were 'army tales' told to illustrate (for example) why not to clean your Enfield before checking it clear….etc either that or GRB1942 was a lying old hound.....


Last edited by SRB1965 on Thu Nov 02, 2023 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyThu Nov 02, 2023 5:11 am

I would agree, second hand memories becoming personal but My point is that even though they may be other persons expeiences they did then happen and we could learn from them.
My brother, we served together, died last year and I was fortunate enough to spend a few days with him. He suffered from dimentia and as I listened to his ramblings I recognised tales from the army that werent really him but other members of our troop/squadron. So even though he didnt get involved the stories were real and pretty vivid.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: IStE by F Allewell esq   IStE by F Allewell esq EmptyThu Nov 02, 2023 10:10 am

Frank
I absolutely agree up to a point. Of course the Pulleine-Durnford conversation happened - that's known from those present. Probably the extra 20 rounds per man Stafford mentioned, happened. The problem is how to know which ones did NOT happen but were rumours or tall stories. Picking and choosing can be problematical.
Now you know as well as I do that there are those who would place the Boys-killed-at-Isandhlwana story in the same category. I do not believe they are right for a variety of reasons - contemporaneity, eye-witnesses, volume of evidence, proof of presence, etc., etc. - but this is a good example of the picking and choosing what to regard as factual evidence.
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