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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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 Martin Foley

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 1:29 pm

Springbok. Photobucket is under maintainance at present. So unable to post the photo's you e-mailed yet.

Here are two photos’ to be getting on with, you posted in another discussion. Stitched together by SirDDC.

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 2:30 pm

Essex & Curling make no mention of Seeing Smith-Dorrien. I think is safe to say that all of those survivors concerned in this discussion were roughly in the same proximity that being around 1:30pm as stated by Essex. Apart from Smith-Dorrien.

I’m putting all of them on the Road to Rorke’s Drift as stated my Curling “When we got on to the road to Rorke's Drift it was completely blocked up by Zulus”

This is where the first conversation took place between Curling and Coghill. Coghill then disappears, and curling makes his way down a steep ravine leading towards the river about 400 yards down the guns got stuck, and he left them. Coghill then reappears with the message that Colonel Pulleine had been killed.

Now we must be talking minutes between Coghill appearing and re-appearing. So where had he been. And why did he not mention Pulleine’s death on his first encounter with Curling

The only mention of Smith-Dorrien (Could be wrong) was made by Curling, which was down by the river.
“I saw Lieutenant Melville, 1st Battalion 24th Regiment, with a colour, the staff being broken. I also saw Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien assisting a wounded man.

I’m fairly confident that Smith-Dorrien left quite a while before the others on his slow moving broken-kneed transport pony.

“I rode through unheeded”

Not a mention of Zulu’s until he was near the River. Yet the others all stated the Zulu’s were among them with their assegai’s ect

PS
Curling Say’s “During the action, cease firing, was sounded twice” Any thoughts on this.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 3:56 pm

Hi Pete
Slowly the morass seems to unwind.
Let me throw this at you, in his memoirs he makes mention of the Guns stuck in the Gulley. That puts him SE of the saddle after Curling.
I dont have the details to hand but doesnt SD make mention of catching up with Curling on the hill?
Another take on things. Curling Coghill and Smith are forced along the side of Blacks Kopie by the right horn, the guns crash in to ravine. They carry on OVER the ravine and turn right down to the stream. SD comes on the guns then does a sharp right turn missing out having to cross the ravine. Being later on the scene he misses the first body of the left horn, the so called runners, and escapes in the lull between the runners and the main body.
Im open to correction but I dont think the fugitives were in a solid body.
1) Addendorf Vane Higginson etc. use the road.
2) The NNC plus camp followers
3) the Officer group
4) the fighting retreats.
So would you think it could be possible that the right horn come running up the hill from the stream, more or less in column. They see the NNC fleeing. Whats there major task? Stop the escape? encircle the camp? Just suppose a commander sees his duty in encircling the camp so sends a portion of his command after the NNC. The balance carry on to the neck and from there spread out. That allows an UNIMPEEDED gap for SD to inadvertantly slip through. It puts the left horn on the neck ready to take on the fighting retreat. Its also allowed a segment to chase down the fugitives. It could also be possible that at this time our mythicallly brilliant Zulu commando, knowing the country the way he does, to send a further impi to cut of the fugitives by travelling a route in between the road route and the fugitives route. This answers another question: Why didnt the fugitives take a direct route to RD. Once they had climbed the first hill after the stream, Shiyane would be in plain view why not carry on in a straight line. Instead the via to the left. Is it a coincidence that at the point they turn left there is a direct route back to the neck? Im sat on that hill and wondered why they didnt carry on straight. No topographical reason for it at all. Rather than send more photos, there is an excellent shot on Jamies site that shows the point I mean.
So my theory ( ready to be shot down) carries on. The Commander has sent a second impi along this alternate route. At this turn of point they become visible to the fugitives who then head of to Mpethe crest. This then would be the impi that causes the major damage heading down to the drift itself. This would be the impi thats moved along at their own pace conserving energy, not the mob thats been running around stabbing and causing mayhem and getting tired very very quickly. Believe me as a pretty fit guy a few years ago just walking that route was hard. So imagine running around like a dervish, stabbing gutting and killing. They would not have made it half way up the hill. Dont forget these same guys had just run all the way from the Ngwebi Valley aroung 8-9 kilometres away ( 5 miles ) at a pretty fast pace.
In the naratives there seems to be a space between the frentic leaving of the battlefield until the stream and then a quiet period up the ( I say old chap have you seen my sword back there?)hill untill the narrow defile when Brickhill held them back. It seems to be only at that point that a sense of danger comes back into things ( hurry along there this is no place to be on foot ). And not to much later ( get along there the zulu is upon us ). This quiet period I believe is when the first pursuers ran out of steam and left it up to the second impi. That quiet period also gave the various members of the cast space to overtake, group and converse. Maybe they even thought they had got away with it, so the front men eased up a tad. Suddenly the next impi apears and mayhem ressumes. In the meantime the half mile lead that Coghill had has been substantially reduced. That puts M and C back into the same time and space zone.
I dont know if that lot makes sense.
Opinions gentlemen?

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 7:15 pm

Map from George Chadwick, showing his thoughts on where M & C entered the water.
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Photo’s By Springbok

Springbok. Just got in. A quick bite to eat. Then I'll read your last post. Looks Interesting. Photo's as requested.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 7:58 pm


Smith-Dorrien say’s “At about 12 a.m. the Zulus, who had apparently fallen back behind the hills, again showed in large numbers, coming down into the plain over the hills with great boldness, and our guns and rifles were pretty busy for some time, causing the Zulus again to fall back. It was difficult to see exactly what was going on, but firing was heavy. It was evident now that the Zulus were in great force, for they could be seen extending (i.e. throwing out their horns) away across the plain to the south-east, apparently working towards the right rear of the camp”.


“Nothing of importance occurred, beyond the constant increase of the Zulus and the spreading out of their horns, until about 1 p.m., when they started their forward movement direct on the camp”.

“The advancing Zulus' line at about 1 p.m. It was a marvellous sight, line upon line of men in slightly extended order, one behind the other, firing as they came along, for a few of them had firearms, bearing all before them. The rocket battery, apparently then only a mile to our front, was firing, and suddenly it ceased, and presently we saw the remnants of Durnford's force, mostly mounted Basutos, galloping back to the right of our position. What had actually happened I don't think we ever shall know accurately? The ground was intersected with " dongas," and in them Russell with his rocket battery was caught, and none escaped to tell the tale. I heard later that Durnford, who was a gallant leader, actually reached the camp and fell there fighting.”

Essex's. Puts himself. Curling. Smith on the road to Rorkes Drift. (Curling confirms Coghill was also there) Around 1.30pm .a few minutes later Curling had move on down the ravine leading towards the river. After 400 yards the guns got stuck. He left them and carried on to the river.

Then Smith-Dorrien say’s “I came on the two guns” So doe’s this not put Smith-Dorrien behind the rest. Then he says Coghill past him. But Coghill was with the rest moving down to the river. So how did he end up behind Smith-Dorrien?

If I’m losing the plot tell me Hard Day. Idea


Found it thanks for that Springbok.
“I came on the two guns, which must have been sent out of camp before the Zulus charged home. They appeared to me to be upset in a donga and to be surrounded by Zulus. Curling must have left before Smith-Dorrien.

“I rode through unheeded”. Misunderstood My Fault. He says the Zulu’s took no notice of him because he was wearing a Blue Patrol Jacket.
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90th

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PostSubject: Martin Foley.   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:40 pm

hi pete.
There is no doubt in my mind that Curling left before Smith- Dorrien as Curling states in my earlier post that he saw
only a one or a couple of Artillerymen riding the guns , as all the others were from other corps , not sure he mentions
the guns being upset in the donga , but , Smith- Dorrien does and says that they ( guns ) were surrounded by the zulu.
No doubt finishing off those who had ridden the guns , he then says he rode through unheeded that is why he was able
to do so , as the zulu were busy at the upset guns and either didnt see him or he was alone and they thought there was
more fun to be had where they were ! Suspect .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:59 pm

90th. He Doe's say in Memories of Forty-Eight Years Service.

"I could see the Zulus running in to complete their circle from both flanks, and their leading men had already reached the line of retreat long before I had got there. When I reached the point I came on the two guns, which must have been sent out of camp before the Zulus charged home. They appeared to me to be upset in a donga and to be surrounded by Zulus."

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 10:15 pm

Pete. I can see the point you are trying to make. Its does appear that Coghill was hanging back for something ????

Another question.

Curling say’s “I was with Major Smith at this time, he told me he had been wounded in the arm. We saw Lieutenant Coghill, the A.D.C., and asked him if we could not rally some men and make a stand, he said he did not think it could be done.”

We saw Lieutenant Coghill, the A.D.C., and asked him

Why would Smith with the rank of Major ask the opinion of a Lieutenant weather or not a stand could be made. ???
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 11:07 pm

Jamie's website would be usefull at this point.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 11:11 pm

If SirDCC can do this. He would be the best one to show the route.

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90th

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PostSubject: matin foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 5:54 am

hi chard1879.
Maj Smith was an Artillery officer and maybe not qualified as to the workings of the imperial troops , that is most
likely why he asked the question to Coghill about making a stand . Happy to be corrected but I'm sure there would
be some sort of red tape or protocol's that would have been in place in the Victorian Army. Idea .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 7:47 am

Great discusion, lots of interesting questions coming out.
Chard
90th is right, Smith was artillery and would have wanted an infantry officer to organise.

Coghills missing moments. When Curling says we crossed the road, dont forget the road wasny only between RD and the neck, it carried on way passed to Ulundi. So when they crossed the road it could mean the road on the saddle or just below. Working on that theory, Curling and Smith then turn left of the road and head for the ravine area ( dont forget they didnt know the ravine was there), Coghill then goes back over the saddle to the horse lines and tells the groom to saddle Pulleines horse. He starts to ride back towards Pulleine and either sees or is told that P is dead. At that point turns back to the neck and rides. Plausible?

Pete
Those shots dont show the drift or mpethe. Ill try and down load a wider shot . Nobody knows the exact route that was followed as I said in an earlier post, the trail is pretty wide.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 8:05 am

Durnford was in the Engineers. ?? And in Charge.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 8:18 am

Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien states in Memories of Forty-Eight Years Service

"but I only saw one European, a Colonial and Acting Commissariat Officer named Hamer, lying there unable to move. I managed to catch a loose horse, and put him on it, and he escaped."

Is it possible to find out if Hamer was one of the survivors named? in the official records.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 8:35 am

Doe's anyone know what happen to Jamie's website. Can't do nothing apart from view the home page.

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 9:09 am

CTSG
Just tried it working fine, try adding index after the /
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 9:12 am

John
Hamer, Commissary No 2 col was a survivor

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 10:05 am

Pete Ive sent you an annotated ( amateur as hell ) map.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 5:28 pm

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Photo and route details by Springbok9

Springbok where it says "ROAD" It that the Road to R.D Where they met.


Last edited by Admin on Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: google map.   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 3:47 am

hi sprinbok / Pete .
Thanks for sharing and posting the map , it makes it easier to understand looking at it from that perspective .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 7:08 am

Pete
No that just indicates the actual road to RD. I believe that when they talk of meeting on the road they mean the road cutting through the camp. I spent quite a bit of time last night adding bits and pieces to the timeline, and re examining some of the survivors statements. Ill post a story line a little later for discussion.
I saw some where on one of the strings things wifes were saying about this hobbey of ours. Early hours of this morning, my wife said, " I wish you had a mistress, at least I could compete with that."
Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Martin Foley.   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 7:33 am

hi springbok .
I understand exactly what you are saying ! , as would impi and umbiki , and I'm sure their are a couple of others
but cant think of them off hand !!. Suspect Suspect .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 8:58 am

Heres a potential time line.
Starting at the camp with Smith Dorrien. He describes the fall back of the 1/24th and to his mind the final charge. He leaves at this point and retreats. He is ignored, according to him because of his blue jacket. He sees the guns and is passed by Coghill shortly afterwards. As that is only 400 yards from the camp it would be fair to assume that Coghill left after SD.
Curling talks of seeing Coghill 'crossing the road.' That I have assumed is the road going over the saddle. Curling and Smith then retreat with the guns which crash in the Ravine.
Essex puts the guns crash at around 1:30.
Coghill orders Private Williams to pack up Pulleins tent and advises him to flee. Williams sees Melvill leave the camp with colors, Coghill just behind him.
Private Bickley puts Melvill and Coghill together around quarter mile from the camp and hears Coghill tell Melville that Pullein has been shot.
This is possibly very close, if not the same, to the meeting with Coghill, Curling and Smith, shortly after the guns.
Brickhill sees Melvill and Coghill together on the way down to the stream, 200 yards ahead but a little to the right.
At the end of the ravine is a deep gulley with lots of Dongas around, really bad country.
Around here Smith Dorrien catches up with Curling. After a brief conversation Curling on a fresher horse moves ahead. Smith Dorriens horse is tired and slow so holding him back. Brickhill meets up with Melvill and is asked by Melville about his sword.
Its at this gulley that Brickhill talks of holding back the line of horsemen so Melvill can negotiate the side of the gulley. Coghill is towards the back of the que and shouts"its not the place to be leading a horse".
After the gulley they cross the Manzimyama stream and head uphill towards Mpethe.
At the top they hit a boggy area which splits the group up.
Smith Dorrien sees Coghill half a mile ahead and Melvill with the colors half uncased.
Conclusion here is that the main body of officers went from the stream to the top of Mpethe in a loose group, possibly the fastest pulling away or the slowest resting their horses. Its here that I believe they had a respite from pursuit, a quiet time.
This could account for Coghill being father ahead.
When the cleared the top of Mpethe there is a really steep almost cliff face to descend before hitting the flats at the bottom. This is were the second wave of Zulu would have attacked forcing a lot of horses over the cliffs. It was described as "a bonyard with marks of the hoofs on the rocks". This area is really over grown now so it cant be pin pointed exactly. One day there will be a bush fire and expose it.
Its round about this point that Smith Dorrien dismounted to treat and bandage a soldier. The patient was killed as was Smith. Smith Dorrien then leaps and bounds into the water.
On the flats at the bottom of the cliff Higginson sees Melvill and Coghill together and hears them promise to stick together.
Wally Erskin Cochrane and Higginson all reached the river together. That puts them is the same time/space frame as Melvill and Coghill. Also the Edenvale men fired there volleys over the river as Erskin climbed out of the water.
Brickhill enters the water at this time and spots Melville in trouble. However Melvill apeares to regain control of his horse so Brickhill carries on.
We know that Cochrane met on the Natal Bank with Essex and Gardner to discuss the next move, Macpail overheard the conversation.
So at this point with the border guard, Erskin, Cochrane, Essex, Macpail and Gardiner all there together, Smith Dorrien was also on the bank catching a horse to give to Hamer. At this very moment Coghill and Melvill were in the river with Higginson. WHY DIDNT THEY SEE IT?
Incidently, Melvills watch stopped at 2: 10. While this is no guarantee, it could have stopped the day before, run out been damaged, its certainly something to consider.
Essex has placed the time of the gun crash at approx 1:30. Circumstances as described put Melvill and Coghill on the trail at this time or within minutes of this time. My original estimate of time was 60 minutes for the ride. So its possible that the watch stopped when Melville hit the waters of the Mzinyathi.
If thats any where near close it means that when all these officers reached the 'safety' of Natal the rest of the 24th were still fighting on the field of battle or on the retreat. This we know because the fighting was at its height during the eclipse.
Next stage of the time line is to try and fit in some other figures, Stafford Vause Davies Wassal Dorehill Costelo and Hayes for instance.

Regards



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90th

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PostSubject: time line   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 10:35 am

hi springbok .
Its a lot to digest , but I think you may have nailed it :) . It certainly makes sense from a disaster where not
much sense of detail can be found regarding the retreat from the camp .
cheers 90th. :)
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 11:11 am

Hi 90th
What it does is probably ask more questions than giving answers. My biggest question allways has been, what happened at FD ? Why with such a lot of traffic did M & C end up on their own. Why werent the officeers sufficiently concerned to try and help others crossing the drift. Strangely it seems as if Essex promoted making a stand but was over ruled by Gardiner. If a stand had been made then it could have been like Little Big Horn, just think how glorious that could have been.
Maybe the stigma Gardiner carried with him was deserved after all.

Regards
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 6:36 pm

Quote :
As that is only 400 yards from the camp
I Might be reading this wrong, But I though Curling was on the road To Rorkes Drift. Met with the others then went down the ravine, 400 yards in the Guns got stuck.

Quote :
It would be fair to assume that Coghill left after SD.

Curling met with Coghill, on the Road to Rorkes Drift with Major Smith, They asked if they could not make a stand. Coghill then disappears and returns to say Pulleine had been killed. Curling carries on down the ravine, but what happen to Coghill where did he go. Because Smith Dorrien comes across the guns that were stuck. (He says they may have been sent away from the camp) He then proceeds in the direction Curling took. Then gets passed by Coghill. (You would have thought Coghill would have stayed with Curling and Smith.

Not sure this is correct.
Quote :
(“Williams sees Melvill leave the camp with colours, Coghill just behind him. Private Bickley puts Melvill and Coghill together around quarter mile from the camp and hears Coghill tell Melville that Pulleine has been shot”.
Springbok could you post the accounts. The only one Coghill told about Pulleine’s death was Curling.

With regards to Pulleine’s death found a possible answer. But need to confirm if Thomas Of Ystalyfera existed.

From No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt. 1

Rorke's Drift.
19 February 1879

"I am very sorry to tell you that we see very hard times of it out here now. We are on the march all the time and we have not seen a bit of bread this last two months, only biscuits all the time and we are often on the road for two or three days at a stretch, that we don't get coffee or tea, only dry biscuit; it is an awful place for water. Another thing, we have to write with powder and water and I had to pay fourpence for this sheet of paper and envelope...
We had a very hard fight for about three hours at a place called Isandhlwana. The Zulus attacked our camp and as soon as we saw them coming, we struck the tents and formed square around the ammunition, and we kept them back for three hours. The General was not with us at the time; he was out somewhere and the colonel that was in command of us (as soon as he saw the Zulus retiring) ordered us to advance after them. We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and [color=yellow]the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong.[/color] He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition. However, we killed about 6000 that day. David Davies has been killed."
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 8:05 pm

I think your find Thomas Of Ystalyfera was not at Isandlwana. I read somewhere he was with Chelmsfords Colum. (Just trying to impress the folks back home)

Happy to be corrected.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 9:59 pm


Quote :
"Thomas was not at Isandhlwana and his letter cannot be relied upon in any of its comments. To quote from my England's Sons: 2-24/1415 Pte. Thomas Thomas
This 2/24th soldier came from Ystalyfera in Wales. A letter home to his uncle and aunt from Rorke’s Drift, dated 19th February, 1879, is extant in both Welsh and English versions. They were published in Y Gwladgarwr, 18th March 1879; Y Genedl Gymreig, 24th April 1879; and in the North Wales Express, 18th April 1879. From the ambiguity of the content it could be interpreted that the writer participated in the battle of Isandhlwana and it has appeared in print as a letter from a bona fide survivor. In reality, Thomas was out with his battalion as a member of Chelmsford’s reconnaissance on the 22nd January. Thomas is either deliberately not telling the truth or, to be generous, his writing in the first person plural has been taken literally when what he actually intended to convey was the third person plural."

Source: Julian whybra
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90th

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PostSubject: Martin Foley.   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 2:03 am

hi all.
Thanks sas1 you saved me the trouble of grabbing mine ( book ) Idea
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 7:12 am

Hi Chard.
Your correct. When the 'Road to RD' is described as such it cuts across the saddle so in order to get to the ravine the road has to be crossed.
Yes its around 400 yds
Sources for all the sightings are:
Ian Knight,
DCF Moodie
Emery
Gon
Plus all the survivors accounts.
The conversation Coghill, Melvill, Curling is refered to by most of the authors, in particular Ian Knight.
Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 9:50 am

Chard
We tend to think that Coghill met with Curling and Smith, left and came back again. I beleive the opposite is possible.
When the artillery came through the camp they had to get onto the RD road in order to pass between the horse lines and the 1/24 camp. Here They spoke to Coghill about organising resistance. At this time the left horn had broken past Durnford (causing the collapse) Durnford had lost control of his troops who were streaming over the saddle and heading for home. The guns carried on over the saddle on the road, Curling/Smith saw the right horn coming around so turned left alongside Mahlabamkhosi and the ridge and foundered in the ravine. Coghill went no where, he was still in the camp. He then told Private Williams, Glyns groom ( Williams statement refers) to pack up Glyns tent and escape himself. In Williams statement he saw, " Lt Melville leaving camp with the Queens colors and Lt Coghill close behind". Possibly Coghill was still in the camp area after seeing the Guns of, he spots Pulleine being shot and sees Melvill leaving and chases after him. On the way he passes the guns and sees Curling and Smith and passes the news of Pulleins death, its either here or shortly after that Private Bickley, he started of across country on foot and after a quarter of a mile caught a horse, came across Melvill with the colors. He records, "Mr Coghill afterwards joined us and reported to the adjutant that Colonel Pulleine had been shot. Seeing that Coghill was fleeing in the occasional company of a variety of other officers he would without doubt spread the news of the CO,s death.
Bicley also records that later on he saw Corporal Richardsons death.
There is actually a mountain of facts and information that really only becomes evident when a macro view is taken of the suvivors statements. Start to put them all together and a picture starts to emerge.

Regards
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 10:18 am

Sprinkbok cannot find this
Quote :
Williams statement he saw, " Lt Melville leaving camp with the Queens colors and Lt Coghill close behind".

Lieu: Higginson is the only one that put Melvill and Coghill together, and thats by the River.

I would like to know how far the Road to Rorkes Drift (Where they met) Is from where the fighting was taking place. (Any replies welcome)
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 11:30 am

Williams statement : Zulu, by Ian Knight page 93, second paragraph.
Higginson is definitly not the only statement, Research, Brickhill, Foley, Williams and Bickley, plus the other sources I have quoted in my time line. For other statements about the trail there are , Stafford, Hamer, Curling, Davies, Henderson, Cochrane, Vause,Erskin and Smith Dorrien.
The RD road actually runs through the battlefield.
The guns retreated from the front left of the battlefield crossing the front of the battlefield on the oblique to the road. The road ran between the 1/24th camp and the horse lines. The guns would have travel this short section, approx two hundred metres to the saddle, seen the right horn and turned left off the road.
Your comments of the 'suicide". The rumours of a suicide where wide spread, in a letter to the widow of Sgnt McCaffery of Lime Kilne Road Dover from Sgnt Edward Daley he states "....... Colonel Durnford gave contrary orders and when he saw what he had done shot himself." Sgnt Edward Daley was with Chelmsfords detachment and not a survivor.

Regards
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 11:59 am

Chard. Found this. There is some mention of Williams.

Source: Recollections and correspondence, with a short account of his two sons, Lieutenants A.H.H. Parr and G.R. Parr"


"The advanced wings of the Zulu army were called " horns." of the company which had acted during the morning as a reserve ; and now, when the case seemed a desperate one and the camp all but taken, the colour was handed over to Melvill, the adjutant of the battalion, and he started, accompanied by Colonel Glyn's orderly officer, Nevill Coghill, who had been left in camp that day owing to a sprained knee. They managed to cut their way out of camp, and fell into the stream of fugitives and of Zulus in the valley. Here they overtook Private Williams, Colonel Glyn's groom, on a spare horse of his master's.

In consequence of the bad ground, steep and rocky and strewn with boulders, it was impossible to get any speed out of the horses, and the Zulus kept up with the fugitives with-out much difficulty, and a running fight was carried on the whole way to the river.

Before long Coghill's horse was wounded and his saddle slipped. Private Williams dismounted, and helped him to resaddle and remount his horse, this delay bringing the
Zulus very near. The three reached the river-side close together, Melvill being a little in advance.

Private Williams had to jump his horse where the bank was high and the water deep, and went under water with his horse, being carried some way down stream ; and when, after a long struggle, he reached the Natal bank, he saw neither Melvill nor Coghill.

Melvill's horse was shot in the stream, "and probably, in endeavouring to extricate himself from the dying animal, the colour got out of his grasp.

Coghill had reached the Natal bank in safety, but on seeing Melvill clinging to a rock in the river, trying to recover the colour, he rode back into the river to his
assistance. Here his horse was shot.

Not until the Zulus were close upon them did they give up the endeavour to regain the colour. But it was too late.

They both reached the Natal bank, and struggled together some three hundred yards up the rocky kloof leading from the river, and then found their pursuers gaining on them, and themselves so exhausted by their desperate ride and their struggles in the water, that they could go no farther.

There are, not many hundred yards from the river-side, two boulders within six feet of each other, near the rocky path. At these boulders they made their last stand and
fought until overwhelmed. Here we found them a few days afterwards lying side by side, and buried them on the spot where they fought and fell so gallantly.

There is no need of anything to remind Englishmen of their story — while we remember the Zulu War it will not be forgotten ; but that the place where Melvill and Coghill
fell should be securely marked, a stone cross was erected, and stands watching the lonely spot."
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 12:34 pm

This might help to clarify the position of the "road" in relation to the battle, the 'saddle' and the fugitives' route. If I get any of this wrong I'm sure one of our Bokke friends will correct me!

Take a look at photos 5 and 6 at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] which start to sweep across the battlefield from left to right (using slideshow/pause combination give best view). The whitewashed cairns give a rough indication as to the fighting. Then, at photo 7, comes the 'saddle' (i.e. between the southern end of the hill and Black's Koppie - see also photo 10 for a 'close up'). The Ulundi - Rorke's Drift 'road' (track) ran east to west - i.e. left to right over this saddle/nek. So, over the saddle/nek - and by definition 'road' - to photo 8 ( close up photo 11) where you will see a line of cairns. These roughly signify the start of the fugitive's route before it swings off to the left around the base of 'Black's Koppie" - although remember the 'trail' should not be considered a single track as such - as said elsewhere, it was quite wide.

Finally, take a look at photo 9 - taken from the hill looking west to the Shiyane Hill above Rorke's Drift. You can see the modern road. My guess is - but Springbok9 will know better than me, the 'old' road would have hit the modern road somewhere in the region of centre pic?

Hope this helps.

U

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 12:47 pm

On page 2 of this string I published a panoramic photo of the neck. On the extreme left is a red arrow, draw a line from slightly below that arrow to meet up with the lowest of the blue arrows on the right and that is the approx line of the old road. The black line is the approx line of flight towards the Ravine, The black line stops, that is the ravine. Where the black line starts again is the line of flight up to the summit of Mpethe. The small black cross is 'hovering' above Fugitives Drift.
In addition on this string is a clip from Google Earth with the line of the road over the saddle marked and the line of flight shown, plus the position of the ravine.
Hope this helps.

Regards

(Maps copied to this post. Admin)

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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 9:31 pm

A lot of what we have based this discussion on is the evidence by the survivors. I have since found that Curling’s evidence was dismissed as irrelevant) to the Isandlwana court of inquiry.

So where doe’s that leave us. Can we rely on what he said!!

(Doe's anyone know why it was dismissed as irrelevant) This may help with the decision whether or not to disclude him from this discussion. What are your thoughts?
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 11:26 pm

Chard1879. Was it just Curling’s evidence was dismissed, or were there other's.

Admin pointed out on page 2 court of inquiry.

“Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment, states: I am Transport Officer with No. 3 Column. On the morning of the 22nd I was sent with a Despatch from the General to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, the Despatch was an order to join the camp at Isandlwana as soon as possible, as a large Zulu force was near it. I have no particulars to mention besides”

Smith-Dorrien's account of what took place should be taken out of this duscussion, as he wrote most of which is in this discussion many years later. He should have said this at the court of inquiry when he was given the opportunity. It could have played an important factor in the courts conclusion.

I'm not to sure on Williams account. He only seems to have seen Coghill & Melvill. Makes no mention of the others who he would have seen on the trail.

But one thing that doe's stick out is Smith-Dorren saying,” It will thus be seen that Coghill (who was Orderly Officer to Colonel Glynn) and Melvill (who was Adjutant) did not escape together with the Colour" Maybe he thought it un-wise to say this at the time. But with most of them who could damage his Military Career out of the way. He had nothing to loose.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 07, 2010 11:37 pm

Some good points there 24th.

Taking your point regarding Smith-Dorren. He also says. And again pointed out by Admin page 2

"As far as I can make out, their bodies were found near Z. The official account, published in 1881, is quite incorrect as to the movements of these two officers. I may say that I was never consulted."

He could have said this at the court of inquiry. Maybe a few were taken to one side, and read the riot act. What to say and what not to say. Or if you have anything to say keep it short. And that’s exactly what Smith-Dorrien did, until the time was right.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 08, 2010 9:37 am

Hi Guys
The COI was tasked with very specific guidelines"To enquire into the circumstances". Witnesses were severely curtailed in there evidence, look at the transcripts [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
All th evidence was truncated, hence they werent interested in a lot of evidence about the fugitives trail.
Seeing as there is such a paucity of testimony etc I dont believe we can discount any unless its shown definitly to be fraudulent.
With Smith Dorrien, his story only came out really much later in life, as you say when he was larger in statue and safer in his position.
As for the rest we have to take the snipperts where we can, glue them together and see what transpires.
I think the time line holds up under scrutiny to a degree. Pars comments about Williams fixing Coghills saddle and he, Williams being passed on the trail by M & C are strange.
Williams maintained that Coghill road of after advising him to flee. As Williams at that stage was in the tented area, presumably packing up Glyns tent surely he couldnt have got ahead of M & C? There are possible answers, different route etc. Still needs to be explored a lot though.
At least I think we have a base to work on.
Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 08, 2010 8:44 pm

And of course Chelmsford was very cleaver, by making Lieutenant-Colonel Harness, Royal Artillery a member of the Court of Enquiry panel.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 08, 2010 9:30 pm

"Zulu Wars: Smith-Dorrien was present at the Battle of Isandlwana on 22 January 1879, serving with the British invasion force as a transport officer for the army's Royal Artillery detachment. As Zulu forces overran the British forces, Smith-Dorrien narrowly escaped on his transport pony. As such, Smith-Dorrien was one of fewer than fifty white survivors of the battle. His observations on the difficulty of opening ammunition boxes led to changes in British practice for the rest of the war, though modern commentators argue that this was not as an important factor in the defeat as was thought at the time. Because of his conduct in trying to help other soldiers during his dramatic escape from the battlefield, he was nominated for a Victoria Cross, but, as the nomination did not go through the proper channels, he never received it. He took part in the rest of that war".

Doe's anyone have any more information. What it means "proper channels" I thought it was because, they felt his actions did not warrent a V.C.

Also was this true: His observations on the difficulty of opening ammunition boxes led to changes in British practice for the rest of the war. I again thought it was Chelmsford who changed this. ???
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90th

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PostSubject: horace smith - dorrien   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 2:15 am

hi littlehand.
Cant remember exactly the story behind HS-D and his not getting the VC , but think it was something to do
with him asking his CO for something or other and being denied , so he went over his head and it was granted .
Needless to say his CO wasnt very happy Suspect . It may have had something to do with a posting , possibly
going to Sth Africa for the zulu war , I'm sure someone will come across it .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 3:55 pm

Quote :
I again thought it was Chelmsford who changed this


Littlehand. He did. It was after the battle of Isandlwana that it became quite clear to the Good Lord Chelmsford that he would have to think for every officer and soldier in this war, as it appeared they were incapable of thinking for themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 9:47 pm

MEMORIES OF FORTY-EIGHT YEARS SERVICE


Quote :
"I, having no particular duty to perform in camp,”

What was he actually doing there. Was he just the messenger? That rode between Isandlwana & Rorkes Drift.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 8:04 am

CTSG
Maybe, just maybe, The debarcle comes down to the fact that he did try to think for everyone and didnt share his thoughts with the rest. Fingers in to many pies style of management.
Just a thought.

Saul David
Smith Dorrien was assigned to RD as a special service officer on transport. He was at isandlwana to take back the wagons to RD ready for the next supply run. That was cancelled because, as the troops were being put on standbye, there wasnt enough manpower for an escort. That decision would have been made by Essex the sub director of transport for the number 3 column. Instead he, Smith Dorrien was sent back to RD with the orders for Durnford.

Regards
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 3:06 pm

Quote :
didnt share his thoughts
You should read Chelmsford's letters before making a statement like that.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 4:02 pm

Chelmsford sent Dartnell Brown and Cooper our without informing his Column commander. Amongst other things.
His plans for the so called flying column were made without any consultation, ...." the plan was hastily made without consultation with his staff or subordinates".
Yet again " Chelmsford took upon his shoulders alone the further responsibility of dividing his forces" Shades of George Custer..........." to make matters worse Chelmsford didnt even invite Glyn to attend the orders group, nor was he consulted about his plans"......"other major players, Arthur Harkness, Henry Degacher and Henry Pulleine must have by extension been left in the dark".
?
Mike Snooks, DCF Moodie, et al

Regards
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 7:58 pm

Curling says in his statement at the court of enquiry.

Quote :
"During the action, cease firing, was sounded twice."
Any ideas on this. Why would cease fire be sounded, if the Zulu were attacking. Did he me the Cannon's ceased fire. of the infantry. ?? Bit puzzed by this.
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joe

joe

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Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Martin Foley   Martin Foley - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 8:08 pm

Littlehand, would this not go back to having to cease fire due to smoke obscuring their view???

any other ideas anyone

thanks joe
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