Latest topics | » Private James Powell - 24th Regiment Today at 4:00 am by 90th » George Champney Palmes - Medal at auctionYesterday at 5:34 pm by Dash » Anderson, A. 2622 2-24thMon Dec 02, 2024 6:01 pm by Dash » Samuel PoppleSun Dec 01, 2024 10:14 pm by Dash » 25B/671 Pte. J. Machin 2/24th Regiment, KIA IsandlwanaThu Nov 28, 2024 9:43 pm by Tim Needham » John Samuel Jobbins. Rorkes Drift Defender.Thu Nov 28, 2024 12:36 pm by jgregory » The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 23, 2024 9:14 am by Julian Whybra » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Lieutenant M.G. Wales, 1st Natal Native ContingentSat Nov 16, 2024 12:32 pm by Matthew Turl » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:55 pm by Julian Whybra » Royal Marine Light Infantry, ChathamThu Nov 14, 2024 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom » H.M.S. ForesterThu Nov 14, 2024 4:07 pm by johnex » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier |
December 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | | | | | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » George Champney Palmes - Medal at auctionYesterday at 5:34 pm by Dash » Anderson, A. 2622 2-24thMon Dec 02, 2024 6:01 pm by Dash » Private James Powell - 24th Regiment Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:03 pm by BritNZCan22 » 25B/671 Pte. J. Machin 2/24th Regiment, KIA IsandlwanaThu Nov 28, 2024 9:43 pm by Tim Needham » The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 am by Julian Whybra » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm by John Young » Samuel PoppleTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Initiative by Clery...!!!??? | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
Guest Guest
| Subject: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:12 pm | |
| Hi all
Why Chelmsford did not leave any orders for Pulleine and why Clery Took it upon himself to do this??
January 22, LC knew initiative by Clery...Otherwise ,of what right Clery would do that ?
Cheers
Pascal |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:02 pm | |
| Hmmm!! Because he was busy! |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Initiative by Clery !! ?? Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:17 pm | |
| Impi you are correct , LC did indeed try to run the whole campaign by himself , and to cut it short he did indeed forget to leave orders for Pulleine , Crealock and Clery realised this so they acted on it . 90th. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:45 am | |
| LC as commander of troops in the field, it was not worth anything! |
| | | 24th
Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:05 am | |
| |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:14 am | |
| |
| | | 24th
Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:05 am | |
| I would have thought Pearson was glad to see him. And the Zulus certainly wasn't at Ulundi. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:51 am | |
| In fact LC missed everyone, January 22, 1879!
Imagine that LC have been killed at Isandhlwana, he would become a hero! |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:18 am | |
| Even then the orders should have gone from Chelmsford to Glynn and then to Pulleine. Glynn knew what what was happening and should have imposed himself. Clery should never have been involved, by Glynn backing away orders were given to a (temp) camp commander by a junior officer ( one who was admonished for attempting to do the same moments before with Durnford). Blame Gylnn.
Cheers |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:43 am | |
| The case is complicated, but it is super interesting! |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:05 am | |
| - springbok9 wrote:
- Even then the orders should have gone from Chelmsford to Glynn and then to Pulleine. Glynn knew what what was happening and should have imposed himself. Clery should never have been involved, by Glynn backing away orders were given to a (temp) camp commander by a junior officer ( one who was admonished for attempting to do the same moments before with Durnford).
Blame Gylnn. Cheers Sounds like your still going to those swingers parties. I remember you saying Glyn, had no choices as the 3 Column was under the command of The Good Lord Chelmsford. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:26 am | |
| CTSG Still consistant. Glynn was the one who should have been involved in the chain of command. The fact that he wasnt is down to Chelmsford usurping command. Hows the ornithology. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:40 am | |
| Chelmsford and all the senior officers of the 3rd column that were not at Isandhlwana, are all good to put in the same bag:Salute: |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Initiative by Clery Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:46 am | |
| CTSG. I have sent a letter to Pete written by Clery regarding the going on's at Isandlwana , if you WILL take Clery's own words as the '' proof Positive '' you'll soon see that poor old Glyn never had a chance of being in command , because, your good Lord Chelmesford as Springy says , '' Usurped him '' and its written there in Clery's words in black and white !! 90th. |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:16 am | |
| And there is another account by Clery, when he saying Glyn was a useless command. Or along those lines. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:26 am | |
| Say that Glyn have commanded the part of the 24 th with LC, if there had been a battle to Malakatha and Hlazabazi Ridge the 22 nd January 1879... |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Initiative by Clery. Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:12 am | |
| CTSG it doesnt mean anything if Clery thought Glyn wasnt up to it , the fact is LC took over any command that Glyn held , with the exception of keeping the camp clean , a menial task at best for one of Glyn's rank I'd expect ! 90th. |
| | | Mr M. Cooper
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
| Subject: initiative by Clery Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:34 am | |
| CTSG.
You keep on quoting old hat and unreliable stuff that has been disproven many times, why should we to take the words of these unreliable people and the words of proven liars as being 'fact'. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:03 pm | |
| The irony is that most are not at Isandhlwana, some LC in head have found a way to lie about what really happened!Poor Durnford... |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:43 pm | |
| - Mr M. Cooper wrote:
- CTSG.
You keep on quoting old hat and unreliable stuff that has been disproven many times, why should we to take the words of these unreliable people and the words of proven liars as being 'fact'. Perhaps you to should read the first sentence of the post inquestion! You see Martin what is old hat, is when your pushed into a corner, you start having a rant taking the discussion off topic. You rest your laurels on a Historian, and Jackson's book is the only one you can relate to. It's been said many times, you don't have to contribute to a discussion if it is as you say old hat. |
| | | Mr M. Cooper
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
| Subject: initiative by Clery Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:40 am | |
| CTSG.
'Old hat' is the stuff that you and others keep using in your attempts to blame Durnford. You keep using this same 'old hat' nonsense even though it has been proved wrong, unreliable or even lies (ie; Crealock, Thomas, etc).
"Rest my laurels on an historian and Jackson"? Good god man, I have read many books by different authors on this subject, more than I care to mention, and maybe it would help you (and others), if you would only read and digest more on the subject and broaden your minds, who knows, it might help you to get over your obsession with blaming Durnford. |
| | | old historian2
Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:50 am | |
| Martin, don't get to involved. but when say proven, to what are you referring to. |
| | | Mr M. Cooper
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
| Subject: initiative by Clery Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:09 pm | |
| Hi OH.
What I mean by 'proved wrong', is the old, and ill researched material, that was later copied by many other authors and quoted as being fact. This sort of material has since been proved wrong by modern day and good researchers. For instance, Crealock said that the orders said that Durnford was to take command of or reinforce the camp, this was believed for years, but since the orders were found, and years later were painstakingly and carefully opened (they still had Col Durnford's blood clogging them up), it was proved that the orders did not contain what Crealock had said, yet many still believe and still quote that Durnford was to take command or reinforce the camp. So even though it has been proved wrong, it is still used by some people against Durnford.
Hope this helps. |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:26 pm | |
| - Martin wrote:
- is the old, and ill researched material, that was later copied by many other authors and quoted as being fact.
Not a nice accusation to make! Maybe we will see a public announcement from you shortly. There are some very good authors out there. But you stick with "Jackson" Martin. Who only wrote one book. Look at the credits, and see who Jackson credits with helping him? |
| | | Mr M. Cooper
Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
| Subject: initiative by Clery Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:58 pm | |
| impi
There you go again, putting your foot in it, as per normal.
READ THE POSTS FIRST BEFORE JUMPING THE GUN.
Last edited by Mr M. Cooper on Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:10 pm | |
| 90th when you read this, you realize that the poor Glyn has nothing to do with Isandhlwana !
"In fact in a word, Colonel Glyn and his staff were too See That keep the camp was clean, the guard maintained, ect ..." |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Initiative by Clery Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:25 pm | |
| Hi Rascal. Yes , I agree , but it's been known by many that Glyn had no say in what happened . Basically LC took over the 3rd Column. 90th |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:28 pm | |
| impi Actually no he wrote two. I dont recall Hill of the Sphinx ever being critisised for being inaccurate, missleading or partisan. Why you should seek to denigate it therefore is strange.Or is it a case of the more books you write the more accurate you are? Saul Davids et al must be overjoyed that you aprove. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:48 pm | |
| The book of Saul Davids, this is ....! |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:02 pm | |
| - springbok9 wrote:
- impi
Actually no he wrote two. I dont recall Hill of the Sphinx ever being critisised for being inaccurate, missleading or partisan. Why you should seek to denigate it therefore is strange.Or is it a case of the more books you write the more accurate you are? Saul Davids et al must be overjoyed that you aprove. Quite right Springbok. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:14 pm | |
| |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:46 am | |
| Le Major Clery wrote : "The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I "
Why the Colonel Crealock and not the Major Clery, LC did not trust ?
Best regards
Pascal
|
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:50 am | |
| Major Clery wrote : "but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I. "
LC has changed his orders and did not write by Colonel Crealock, he would have written by Major Clery?
Best regards
Pascal
|
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:40 pm | |
| The General, Lord Chelmsford ,who frequently sent orders direct to unit commanders,had not to give any to Pulleine; so Clery
(acting on behalf of Colonel Glyn but without reference to him or Chelmsford ) composed orders himself, sent them to
Pulleine,and takeld them over with him and his adjutant,Lieutenant Melvill, before riding out with Glyn,before riding out with Glyn.
Alas no copy of these orders survived the battle,but as Clery remembered them at the Court of Inquiry they were as follows:
" You will be in command of the camp during the abscence of Colonel Glyn;drawin" (I speak from memory)" your camp,or your line of defence"(I am not certain which) "while the force is out; also drawn in the line of your infantry outpost accordingly,but keep your cavalry still far advanced."
Source:
Clery,C.of I.
" What I wanted to convey," wrote Clery later,"was this-'keep a sharp look out with yor Cavalry. Get your Infantry outposts back closer to your Camp. Fight compact if you are attacked.Act stricly on the defensive and hold the camp."
Source:
Clery,report. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10912 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Initiative by Clery ! Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:35 am | |
| The Clery report came to light AFTER the battle , he no doubt put it together with the benefit of hindsight . He even states something like '' I'm not certain which ? ''. 90th |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 am | |
| Yes Marsupial ,but It has a sacred responsibility anyway ! |
| | | 24th
Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:07 pm | |
| |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Initiative by Clery...!!!??? Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:43 am | |
| Read in the newspaper THE STAR, friday, January 19, 1900
Lord Wolseley has ever held Clery in hight esteem ...
The story run that had Clery's advice been followed they would have escaped ?
He advised Lord Chelmsford to fortify the camp on 24 th ... Clery's suggestion been adopted,the massacre would not have occurred...
Cheers
Pascal |
| | | | Initiative by Clery...!!!??? | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |