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eaton

eaton

Posts : 72
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PostSubject: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 6:56 pm

When Chelmsford left the camp, he made arrangements for the battalion reserve supply to be readied in case it was needed later. As he wasn't planning to bring his troops back to Isandlwana, why did he not have the ammunition reserve loaded onto some mules or pack-horses to take along with him at the time?
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1186
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 7:02 pm

eaton, now that is a fantastic question,,one that is constantly
fudged on this forum. remember he thought he might ' have
the whole Zulu army on him '. so why did he leave the ammo?.
my theory does not bear scrutiny..because it implies that his
lordship was inept and completely out of his depth.
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 8:28 pm

He certainly seems to have behaved as much as a cowboy as Durnford. Galloping off in pursuit of the enemy as if he was a Lt Colonel, rather than Lt General, with little consideration for his wider responsibilties.
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 9:20 pm

eaton wrote:
When Chelmsford left the camp, he made arrangements for the battalion reserve supply to be readied in case it was needed later.  As he wasn't planning to bring his troops back to Isandlwana, why did he not have the ammunition reserve loaded onto some mules or pack-horses to take along with him at the time?

How do we know he didn't take reserve ammuntion with him?
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 9:24 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
eaton, now that is a fantastic question,,one that is constantly
fudged on this forum. remember he thought he might ' have
the whole Zulu army on him '. so why did he leave the ammo?.
my theory does not bear scrutiny..because it implies that his
lordship was inept and completely out of his depth.

Xhosa,

I would still like to read your theory on this as I have my own ideas.

Waterloo Salute
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 9:29 pm

According to Clery, his instruction to Pulleine included " to keep an ammunition wagon ready to send out to the General", or something to that effect. This is quoted in Knight's Zulu
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 9:33 pm

Understand that, but I can't see LC taking men to engage what was believed to have been the main Zulu army with just the allocated number of rounds 70 per man. The ammuntion back at Isandlwana was required for the push to Ulundi.
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:00 pm

Snook, 'Like wolves on the fold' page 133 - " the 2/24 had marched from Isandlwana with the basic ammunition scale of 70 rounds per man. All the reseve ammunition had been lost with the camp"
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:10 pm

What source does he use! It should say.
I would be interested to know as I don't have any of his books!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:12 pm

eaton
I will need to check tomorrow but I think the idea of packing an ammunition wagon for standby didn't come from Chelmsford but from Clery.

Cheers
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:15 pm

He doesn't seem to give any references, merely a bibliography at the end.

Others on here might know more, so hopefully they will respond.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:15 pm

impi
In Coghills diary there was a note that confirms that, the QM had approached Coghill with a worry that the battalion reserve wouldn't fit in the small wagon but would need one of the larger units.
As in answer to eaton, I will check the exact wording tomorrow.

Cheers
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:16 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
eaton
I will need to check tomorrow but I think the idea of packing an ammunition wagon for standby didn't come from Chelmsford but from Clery.

Cheers

Yes, that's what Knight says, and demonstrates yet another oversight by Chelmsford.
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:44 pm

Eaton you mean Glyn?
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:44 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
impi
In Coghills diary there was a note that confirms that, the QM had approached Coghill with a worry that the battalion reserve wouldn't fit in the small wagon but would need one of the larger units.
As in answer to eaton, I will check the exact wording tomorrow.

Cheers

Thanks Frank!
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 10:58 pm

impi wrote:
Eaton you mean Glyn?

As far as I can see, Glynn didn't do anything and left the detail to Clery.
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 11:03 pm

Possibly but he was still the commander!
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 11:06 pm

I name, maybe, but what did he do in practice?

No doubt he was ordered to go, but why was it necessary for him to leave the camp with Chelmsford?
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 11:20 pm

None really, it was Glyn who made representation to LC to assist Dartnell. Up and till that point LC refused to go to Dartnell's assistance. Perhaps Glyn had a good friendship with Dartnell?
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySat Feb 13, 2016 11:32 pm

Hi waterloo, no problem!. i will do that tomorrow, as most
will tell i usually respond ' off the cuff ' mostly to my
detriment. Very Happy but i do have something to say about that
question, got a feeling not many will like it!. Rolling Eyes cheers.
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 12:01 am

Hiya eaton, 17th of February 1879. Clery to Colonel Harman..
speaking of his ' order ' to Pulleine.. " keep a wagon loaded
with ammunition ready to start at once. should the General's
force be in need of it". Clarke, Zululand at war.
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Ulundi

Ulundi

Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-06

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 12:36 am

I don't think it was in the actual order? Clery states he verbally told him to have a wagon ready at a moments notice, so we will have to take Clery word for that!
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 12:49 am

Are you saying Clery's word is to be doubted? on
what would you base such a thing?.
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Ulundi

Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 1:09 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
Are you saying Clery's word is to be doubted? on
what would you base such a thing?.

Personal preference. But it appears not to be in the written order.

"Captain Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars, states: I accompanied the main body of the 3rd Column as Acting Staff Officer to Officer commanding 3rd Column when it left the camp at Isandlwana on the 22nd January, 1879. I was sent back with an order from the General between ten and eleven A.M. that day into camp, which order was addressed to Colonel Pulleine, and was that the camp of the force out was to be struck and sent on immediately, also rations and forage for about seven days."


Clery COE

"sent written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; draw in (I speak- from memory) your camp, or your line of defence"—I am not certain which-"while the force is out: also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly; but keep your cavalry vedettes still far advanced." I told him to have a wagon ready loaded with ammunition ready to follow the force going out at a moment's notice, if required."
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 1:24 am

Your talking about two different orders. One from Clery at the time Chelmsford left the camp - actual order never found. One from Chelmsford, carried by Gardner about 6 hours later, telling Pulleine to pack up some of the equipment and send it forward.

Steve
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 1:25 am

Thanks ulundi, got some football to watch. Salute
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 1:57 am

There you go again with your stupid remarks. Give yourself enough rope!
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 2:05 am

So sorry impi, you misunderstood me, my device is to
the immediate left of me. i dipped out and watched man
u get theirs, so i was not being rude merely doing some
thing else, sorry ulundi no slight intended.
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90th

90th

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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 8:33 am

Impi
Please post your source evidence or reference for your post where you state , and it seems believe , and I quote !

'' It was Glyn who made representation to LC to assist Dartnell '' . I don't know how many times I've mentioned to you this didn't happen ! . I've posted Clery's letter describing those very events , something like 5 times , either you haven't seen the posts or simply have forgotten ! . It's on page 83 of Sonia Clarke's ' Zululand At War ' for those who wish to repost it .....again You need to study mo . I'm busy washing my hair ! Very Happy
90th
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Ray63

Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 2:13 pm

Why do you say it never happened, you asked the same question before and got the reply you requested, spend sometime re-reading the discussions instead of washing your hair.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 2:32 pm

Ray I say it never happened because it didn't , where is the answer you are referring to ? , maybe you should go and wash your hair and let impi post his source , do you have hair ?
90th
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 3:00 pm


There you go again with your stupid remarks. Give yourself enough rope!
..another attempt by impi to cause trouble..why?.


So sorry impi, you misunderstood me, my device is to
the immediate left of me. i dipped out and watched man
u get theirs, so i was not being rude merely doing some
thing else, sorry ulundi no slight intended.
..me being unnecessarily reasonable!.

What i really think....

" One mouth chances to make a reply, It goes to those who have two mouths each!".

I was neither offensive or rude and yet, the same people attack me with out cause.
i have learned to deal with them in a manner different from last time, so no! not the
same old xhosa, i'm trying to up my game, maybe its also time for others to do the
same.
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eaton

eaton

Posts : 72
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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 3:03 pm

rusteze wrote:
Your talking about two different orders. One from Clery at the time Chelmsford left the camp - actual order never found. One from Chelmsford, carried by Gardner about 6 hours later, telling Pulleine to pack up some of the equipment and send it forward.

Steve

Gardner's message makes no mention of sending ammunition - would that like to have been covered by request for rations ?
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 5:09 pm

90th wrote:
Impi
Please post your source evidence or reference for your post where you state , and it seems believe ,  and I quote !

'' It was Glyn who made representation to LC to assist Dartnell '' . I don't know how many times I've mentioned to you this didn't happen ! . I've posted Clery's letter describing those very events , something like 5 times , either you haven't seen the posts or simply have forgotten ! . It's on page 83 of Sonia Clarke's ' Zululand At War ' for those who wish to repost it .....again You need to study mo . I'm busy washing my hair ! Very Happy  
90th

And I don't remember how many times have a posted this in reply.

Extract Crealock COE

"I was. not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No." The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 6:04 pm

Just to clear this up - hopefully once and for all - you need to read Crealock's words carefully. He says "through" Colnel Glyn, not "from" Colonel Glyn. Clery tells us that he took the message from Dartnell to Colonel Glyn who suggested he took it to Chelmsford. Hence it went through Colonel Glyn. Glyn said nothing to Chelmsford.

Steve
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 7:41 pm

Steve what are you talking about! It's plain and clear in what it says. Glyn made the representation.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 7:51 pm

Don't take my word for it, read Zulu Rising (page 287 in the hardback) for Clery's account. Your quote is indeed plain and clear.

Steve
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:03 pm

I don't have to the COE is good enough. You must stop scrutinising everything, your now scrutinising words. It's clear to see Glyn made the representation to LC, I just would like to known what he said.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:21 pm

On the contrary Impi you should scrutinise the words rather more my friend. The COE is only good enough if you understand what is being said. But you would understand it better if you looked at the reference I gave you. Glyn made no representation to Chelmsford and neither did Clery. The representation was from Dartnell by means of a pencil note, Clery received it, took it to Glyn who said you had better take it to Chelmsford. Which is what he did. He lay on the ground next to Chelmsford's cot and read it to him. Chelmsford gave his orders. That is what Crealock is saying in his testimony to the COE. Don't be stubborn - read Zulu Rising. agree

Steve
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:25 pm

Dartnell message LC refused to go,
Later Glyn made representation LC went. Simple if you just read what Crealock wrote.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:44 pm

Your mixing up the two messages from Dartnell - read Zulu Rising and all will become clear!

Steve
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:05 pm

I must be getting them mixed up as well!!! It reads okay to me.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:11 pm

Impi pull your head out of the sand unless its somewhere else ! , Read Clery's Letter written from RD in Feb . As Steve and several others have mentioned to you over the YEARS ! , take heed reading your book when attempting to broaden your horizon , or get another that has more source evidence enclosed .
90TH
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:30 pm

I see the Battle of Isandlwana continues. Rolling Eyes
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:31 pm

Impi & Others who have trouble understanding what Steve is saying , I'll put it as simply as I can so you may be able to follow it . At 1.30 am Clery receives a message from Dartnell , Clery's words , and I quote ... '' I took this at once to Col Glyn who SIMPLY said I must take it to the General . The General's tent was close by , so I roused him up ( not me and Glyn ! ) . Lying on my face and hands close by his camp bed I can still remember how I read out from that crumpled piece of notebook paper written across in pencil , word after word what I just previously had such difficulty in deciphering in my own tent . THE GENERAL DID NOT HESITATE MUCH '' . He said '' Order the 2 Batt / 24th Regt , four guns and all the mounted troops to get ready to start at Daybreak ''..... Glyn doesn't go with Clery to LC's tent , Glyn doesn't even appear to have read the note ! . If you think by Glyn directing Clery to LC is representation of Glyn making LC ride out the camp , you my friend are seriously deluding yourself and others for that matter ! No
90th
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:40 pm

Amen 90th. agree
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:46 pm

Xhosa Rolling Eyes Shocked Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
90th You need to study mo
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:50 pm

Those men going with LC what would they have been carrying with them. Based on the 12 mile march and ready for action?
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:58 pm

impi wrote:
90th wrote:
Impi
Please post your source evidence or reference for your post where you state , and it seems believe ,  and I quote !

'' It was Glyn who made representation to LC to assist Dartnell '' . I don't know how many times I've mentioned to you this didn't happen ! . I've posted Clery's letter describing those very events , something like 5 times , either you haven't seen the posts or simply have forgotten ! . It's on page 83 of Sonia Clarke's ' Zululand At War ' for those who wish to repost it .....again You need to study mo . I'm busy washing my hair ! Very Happy  
90th

And I don't remember how many times have a posted this in reply.

Extract Crealock COE

"I was. not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No."  The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford.


How I read Crealocks statement.

Clery is asking LC if Dartnell is to be reinforced? LC says "NO"

Crealock then says " I believe through Col Glyn a subsequent representation was made which caused fresh orders at 2am.
To me that's say Glyn spoke to LC.?
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 12:08 am

Ulundi wrote:
Those men going with LC what would they have been carrying with them. Based on the 12 mile march and ready for action?

"Catechism of Battalion Drill, also of Inspections, Queens Regulations, Military Law, Elements of Tactics, &c., by Lt. Chas. Slack, 1877 -

Arms and Ammunition
Rifle (Martini)............8lbs. 12oz.
Bayonet....................1lb. 8oz.
Scabbard.........................9oz.
Knife and lanyard................5oz.
Water-bottle (full)........2lbs. 10 oz.
Mess tin ..................1lb. 5 1/2oz.
Pouch and expense bag......1lb. 11oz.
Waist belt and frog...............4oz.
Ammunition (70 rounds)..7lbs. 14oz."
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