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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:15 pm

Keith Smith RDVC.

"Chelmsford deliberately left the wagon with the reserve of ammunition at Isandlwana because of the state of the road to Mangeni (10 or 12 miles away); he therefore had only the ammunition carried by individual soldiers."
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:16 pm


Crealock then says " I believe through Col Glyn a subsequent representation was made which caused fresh orders at 2am.
To me that's say Glyn spoke to LC.?


Ulundi. no it does not, it went though on the nod..
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:36 pm

Ulundi please take the time to read my post , which is from the letter written by Clery at RD in Feb describing what took place in the camp , from the time Dartnell's message arrived at his tent and onwards , there is no mention of Glyn being present at the time when Clery tokk the note to LC , which he was told to do by Glyn , hardly a representation as its been called ! . There are only Clery and LC in the tent , Crealock is in the next tent , but hears the conversation between Clery & LC , we know this because he makes comment about who is to issue the orders ! , no mention of Glyn , Glyn doesn't go to the tent , if he did you can bet your B-lls it would have been recorded , and mentioned by those who were there , hen they were attempting to cover their own arses , which was exactly what happened later on. I just don't see how people think Glyn was in the tent with Clery and LC , it must have been a small tent as Clery said he layed down on his face and hands and watched LC read the pencilled note , and once again Clery states '' He ( LC ) didn't hesitate much , he said order the 2 / 24th , 4 guns etc etc ! , no mention of Glyn , or Glyn suggests , or again Glyn said or even Glyn wants me to ........... It isn't rocket science ! .
90th
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:50 pm

"The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation"

Perhaps Glyn spoke to LC alone?
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 10:58 pm

Littlehand you cant seriously believe that do you ? . After the disaster you don't think LC or others would've made statements saying it was Glyn who instigated the move to assist Dartnell ????? Come on , think about it , if Glyn had any bearing on the troops leaving the camp , Clery , Crealock and LC would've thrown Glyn to the wolves with no hesitstion , don't you think so ?????. As Glyn wasn't thrown to the wolves , or under the bus ( wagon cart ) it seems logical that Glyn certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with what transpired once Glyn told Clery , you must take the message to the General . Shocked agree agree
90th
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:03 pm

Here is a simple word by word translation of the line in the COE that you are struggling with.

I believe through Col Glyn ( ie Clery has been sent by Colonel Glyn) a subsequent (ie second) representation (ie message from Dartnell) was made which caused fresh orders at 2am (ie by Chelmsford).

What part of that do you not understand?

Steve
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:11 pm

No
90th Shocked
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:14 pm

That's so clear. its Swarovski crystal clear.
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:28 pm

Perhaps you read it in a different way. No good arguing over something that we will never agree on.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 14, 2016 11:42 pm

No Impi, I read it the right way and there is no perhaps about it. It is the benefit of scrutinising words - you should try it.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 12:27 am

It is so easy to understand isn't it.

1; Clery gets a message.
2; He takes it to Glyn.
3; Glyn tells him to take it to LC.
4; LC now changes his mind and sets off to Dartnell.

So when Crealock says "Through Glyn", he means that the message was taken by Clery to Glyn, who then said take it to the general.

It is through some people not being able to understand what scrutinising is, that the order of the 22nd to Durnford always gets misunderstood by some people, and that is always the sticking point.
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 9:48 am

Martin you have missed out where LC says "No"

Does anyone know why LC refused at first?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 11:16 am

Extract Crealock COE

"I was not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No." The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford

Its a correct statement.
Clery received the note from Dartnell, woke up Glynn who instructed him to pass to Chelmsford. Simple as that really, theres nothing there that says Glyn interfered or expressed an opinion in any way and considering his general demeanour I would be very surprised if Glynn had made any suggestions apart from the possible............" and tell his lordship to stick it up his a............"
Shocked Rolling Eyes
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 11:39 am

impi, we all know that LC said "NO" before the subsequent representation, so what would have been the point of me mentioning it again? scratch
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 11:41 am

Hi Frank.

Do you mean 'Aspidistra' ???? scratch Shocked Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 11:44 am

But of course! Wink
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 11:46 am

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
impi, we all know that LC said "NO" before the subsequent representation, so what would have been the point of me mentioning it again? scratch


"I was not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No."


The question I asked is "WHY DID HE SAY NO, THE FIRST TIME"
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 12:06 pm

Hi Impi
At that time Dartnell had not requested any support hi letter was to inform Chelmsford of his intentions, camp out and attack in the morning. I would assume, and that's all we can do, that with the tone of the letter Chelmsford assumed that Dartnell was in control of the situation so there was no need for reinforcement. The more direct note of early morning was really a plea for help, that moved Chelmsford to call up the troops.
Hope that helps.

Cheers
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 12:06 pm

Hi impi.

I seem to recall that LC said no the first time because the first message he received from Dartnell didn't convey much urgency, so he didn't see any need to go to Dartnell's aid, however, the subsequent message appeared to convey that there was a large zulu army very close to Dartnell, and that is what caused LC to issue the fresh orders at 2 am.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 12:08 pm

Sorry Springy mate, we both posted at the same time. Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 12:13 pm

Same interpretation Martin

Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 12:44 pm

There is another loose end that may have some bearing on the events leading up to Chelmsford leaving the camp. Between the first message from Dartnell that Chelmsford does not respond to and the second that causes him to go out in support we are told that two of Hamilton Browne's officers, Lts. Avery and Holcraft, slip away from the bivouac without orders and return to Isandhlwana. We hear no more of them so far as I am aware. But they must have said something about the situation at Mangeni when they got back, albeit not directly to staff officers if they had indeed slipped away without authority. It is perhaps another example of more going on than we know about - was that what prompted Clery to talk to Chelmsford the previous evening?

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 1:06 pm

Interesting point. Who was the other chap that came back with the captured cattle? Murray?
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 1:17 pm

Yes, dispatched with two companies to drive them back to the camp.

Steve
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eaton

eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 1:28 pm

If they were intending to move the camp in a day or two, why bother sending the cattle back?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 1:37 pm

So potentially Chelmsford had Gosset and Buller during the late afternoon giving intel, Murray at a similar sort of time, Avery and Holcroft late evening and then Walsh early morning. In theory therefore his decision to move would have been based on a number of reports.

I thought it may be of use to actually post Clerys comments :
 I had felt very much from the first averse to this movement of sending irregulars, under command of irregular officers, amounting to half the force, on a roving commission of this kind, and now when word came in that they were going to bivouac out I could not help speaking strongly to Colonel Glyn on the possibility of this sort of thing dragging the rest of the force into any sort of compromising enterprise these people may get messed up in.
Pretty prophetic and does raise the possibility that Glyn may have had a word in Chelmsfords ear after all!
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 1:59 pm

You can't discount it, but it would have been out of character and your point about not accompanying Clery with the final message tends to imply he hadn't spoken earlier. It certainly is not what Crealock is referring to at the COE - I think Crealock would have mentioned it if he had, for the reasons you gave earlier.

Steve
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Chard1879

Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 2:01 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Hi Impi
At that time Dartnell had not requested any support hi letter was to inform Chelmsford of his intentions, camp out and attack in the morning. I would assume, and that's all we can do, that with the tone of the letter Chelmsford assumed that Dartnell was in control of the situation so there was no need for reinforcement. The more direct note of early morning was really a plea for help, that moved Chelmsford to call up the troops.
Hope that helps.

Cheers

The way I read it, is that Dartnell was just letting LC know what he was intending to do, and a few extra men would be helpful either way he was going to attack in the morning.
Perhaps LC Didn't want to miss out on the glory.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Reserve Ammunition    Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 15, 2016 10:49 pm

It's probably known but for those who don't , Lt's Avery & Holcroft were KIA at Isandlwana according to the casualty reports .
90th
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 16, 2016 12:29 am

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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Reserve ammunition   Reserve ammunition - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 16, 2016 12:36 am

Thats interesting. IK says it in ZuluRising but doesn't describe them as deserters so it's not just Morris. I'm not quite clear what JW is saying - which part is absolute rot, that they left the Malakathas or they didn't take their natives and ncos or both?

Steve
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