| Latest topics | » Regimental Marches Yesterday at 9:37 pm by ForlornHope » Helpmekaar to iSandlwana a Pictorial JourneyYesterday at 8:55 am by Frank Allewell » A Faithful Servant. A fictional escape from iSandlwana!Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:44 pm by Julian Whybra » 22nd Jany 2025Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:22 pm by ADMIN» The Story of the Zulu Campaign (Major Ashe - 1880) (ID:41222)Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:09 pm by ADMIN» Complete History of the Anglo-Zulu War in South Africa 1879. In French. Wed Jan 22, 2025 7:36 pm by Julian Whybra » Scale drawings of British AZW artillery and limbers?Wed Jan 22, 2025 1:33 pm by John Young » Hayter 17th Lancers Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:54 pm by ForlornHope » Private 2315 John Rodgers 17th LancersTue Jan 21, 2025 10:07 pm by ForlornHope » Pvt John Cowley 17th Lancers Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:00 pm by ForlornHope » Alexander Stewart Leslie Natal Mounted Police.Sun Jan 19, 2025 6:18 pm by gardner1879 » Gordon of Contin Mains, Ross-shire. Possible John Gordon 92nd (Gordon Highlanders) Regiment of Foot Sun Jan 19, 2025 5:17 pm by gardner1879 » 2241 Corp. C. Fowler 24th Foot.Sun Jan 19, 2025 3:06 pm by jgregory » Hugh Fraser RossSun Jan 19, 2025 2:40 pm by gardner1879 » The ammunition questionFri Jan 17, 2025 10:43 pm by ADMIN» Goldsmid DivorceThu Jan 16, 2025 2:11 pm by Eddie » Hlobane and Kambula by Col J M Cowper 2/4th Imperial Mounted Infantry?Thu Jan 16, 2025 9:49 am by ForlornHope » info on private williamsWed Jan 15, 2025 10:10 pm by Tim Needham » The Funeral of General Smith-Dorrien.Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:31 pm by Julian Whybra » Studies in the Zulu War Vol. VTue Jan 14, 2025 5:26 pm by Julian Whybra » What was your first Zulu War book.Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:29 pm by jgregory » London LettersMon Jan 13, 2025 11:53 pm by Petty Officer Tom » Statement about Archibald ForbesMon Jan 13, 2025 4:15 pm by Eddie » We Fired the Martini-Henry | Rifle of the Zulu WarSun Jan 12, 2025 10:55 pm by ADMIN» Artillerymen Buried at Fugitives Drift?Sun Jan 12, 2025 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra » The Battle of Ulundi Talk.Sun Jan 12, 2025 4:02 pm by ADMIN» Important "lost" artifact that should be at Brecon?Sun Jan 12, 2025 12:06 pm by ForlornHope » Animals at Rorkes Drift ?Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:34 am by SRB1965 » 9312 Sapper H Cuthbert 5th Field Coy RESun Jan 12, 2025 9:27 am by Julian Whybra » 25B/671 Pte. J. Machin 2/24th Regiment, KIA IsandlwanaSat Jan 11, 2025 9:46 am by jgregory » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Mon Jan 06, 2025 1:09 pm by Julian Whybra » Harry Richard Farquhar Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:09 pm by Eddie » Veterinary Surgeon GloverFri Jan 03, 2025 11:02 pm by 90th » The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:47 am by John Young » Happy New Year to the incredible communityWed Jan 01, 2025 9:01 am by Julian Whybra |
| January 2025 | | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
|---|
| | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | | |  Calendar |
|
| Top posting users this month | |
| New topics | » 22nd Jany 2025Wed Jan 22, 2025 7:50 pm by Julian Whybra » Complete History of the Anglo-Zulu War in South Africa 1879. In French. Wed Jan 22, 2025 1:41 pm by ADMIN» Helpmekaar to iSandlwana a Pictorial JourneyWed Jan 22, 2025 8:18 am by Frank Allewell » Scale drawings of British AZW artillery and limbers?Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:36 pm by ForlornHope » A Faithful Servant. A fictional escape from iSandlwana!Sun Jan 19, 2025 6:28 pm by gardner1879 » Alexander Stewart Leslie Natal Mounted Police.Sun Jan 19, 2025 6:18 pm by gardner1879 » Gordon of Contin Mains, Ross-shire. Possible John Gordon 92nd (Gordon Highlanders) Regiment of Foot Sun Jan 19, 2025 5:17 pm by gardner1879 » Hugh Fraser RossSun Jan 19, 2025 2:40 pm by gardner1879 » The Story of the Zulu Campaign (Major Ashe - 1880) (ID:41222)Fri Jan 17, 2025 9:29 pm by ADMIN |
| Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. | |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
| Fair Use Notice | | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| | Missing five hours question |  |
| | | Author | Message |
|---|
SRB1965
Posts : 1273
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| | Subject: Missing five hours question Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:39 am | |
| Hi
Last night I was re-reading Q&Ls ‘Missing five hours’ thesis (yeah a real ‘rock and roll’ Friday night in Uttoxeter) and to me it seems very convincing but one thing struck me as ‘odd’ was the statement from a ‘Nokhenke deserter’
I do not know the set up of the de-briefing/interrogation team but it must have had a Zulu speaking translator and to my mind someone who re-interpreted the information given.
There seems to be lots of references to compass directions ‘eastward’ and ‘running north and south’ etc but I am not too fussed about that, but the one thing that I find odd is the fact that ‘about four miles’ is mentioned.
I assume the average Zulu would have knowledge of compass directions (sunrise & sunset) but would he pay attention to what direction the valley was running in? More strangely (to my mind) is the reference to ‘miles’.....how did the Zulus measure distance?......it’s almost like the statement was ’fitting in with what the integrators wished to know’
Cheers
Sime |
| | | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8575
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:56 pm | |
| Your quite right Simon.
A number where interpreted by Drummond and recorded by Gosset, Woods took statements of 4 Zulu interpreted by Llewellyn Lloyd his political assistant.
A number of these statements were collected and sent to London by Chelmsford, 30th March 1879.
Without doubt most of those statements were added to by those present. One can imagine a scene:
Interpreter "Where did the Zulu come from prisoner."
Native waves over his left shoulder.
Interpreter to Gossett"'from the North sir".
Gossett:" More North East I would say, what?"
Mean while the Zulu is thinking, 'damn I shouldn't have waved my friend just then..................................'
|
| | | | SRB1965
Posts : 1273
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:21 pm | |
| Cheers Frank  |
| | | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8575
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:34 pm | |
| Sorry Simon couldn't resist it. But yes virtually all the Zulu testimony has to be regarded as 'tainted'. We do need to take cognizance of the fear factor, those being questioned not wanting to convict or implicate them selves. Mehlokazulu is a classic example of that. After the war when the tourism started there was also the bravado of what the individual had done et. BUT those statements are all we have from the Zulu side so its a case of very careful reading.
Cheers |
| | | | xhosa2000
Posts : 1183
Join date : 2015-11-24
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:03 pm | |
| I agree with Frank.. the ineptitude of the British was at times staggering..
Mehlokazulu told them what they wanted to hear!. he fought the British
to the end of his life over a quarter of a century later when he was shot
to death in the unnecessary slaughter at Mome. |
| | | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8575
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:02 am | |
| There is still a huge amount of information that can be sifted from the Zulu statements however. Mehlokazulu for instance when he is being very PC needs to be put to one side but his placements and timing are very critical to building the battle picture.
Some of the statements seem to give the givers to wide a viewpoint, that can only have come from post battle conversations or prompting from the interviewer. For example one particular member of a left horn regiment commentating on the works of the right horn.
Most of the problems with the Zulu statements come from trying to fit them into the British perceptions rather than allowing them their own viewpoint.
Just an opinion |
| | | | Paul Lamberth
Posts : 18
Join date : 2015-08-07
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:02 pm | |
| "The missing five hours" debate has me amused. Time is relative. First light, mid morning,late afternoon,dark, dawn, etc. etc...close enough. Infantry were still reminding themselves to wind up their watches...the Navy knew if they forget they might get lost. Royal Observatory mid day gun..Cape Town. In terms of distance Zulu used time...how long will it take me to get from A-B...not miles...or Cape roods. Direction...where the sun comes up...or where the sun sets...towards Big river, from Flat mountain en route to the Forest...which is near my house. The famous "blue note" leaves the camp at 08:05 and arrives at the General 09:30 = 90 minutes, = 10 miles on horse = General in the hills towards the south east in direction of the forest/falls....How do you loose five hours? |
| | | | SRB1965
Posts : 1273
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:59 pm | |
| - Paul Lamberth wrote:
- "How do you loose five hours?
Give me a bottle of Jack Daniels.......and I'll loose more than five hours.....probably most of tomorrow....  However in all seriousness, I think most landmarks in Zululand had locally well known Zulu names.....Isandlwana for one (variously...the hut, the cows udder or the fist depending on what book you read) and that they would be able to name larger homesteads, so I am not too concerned about that. Though as you say, distance would have been expressed in 'days walk' or 'half days walk' something like that. Cultures who only had a broad idea of time and had to go somewhere (regardless of distance) would not be hung up on the time & distance equation or speed. Cheers Sime |
| | | | krish
Posts : 82
Join date : 2015-01-30
Location : Australia
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:29 pm | |
| Interesting, I wondered how the distances were measured in those days, but have just transcribed a family diary where great uncles were moving sheep in 1879. Each day he wrote the distance, so many miles from point A etc, They had wagons and 12000 sheep. I think the measurements related to what the animals could travel. But for some reason, comparing to today's maps, their estimate,motions were spot on. |
| | | | xhosa2000
Posts : 1183
Join date : 2015-11-24
| | Subject: Re: Missing five hours question Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:58 am | |
| The thing is that invaders invariably thought that the indigenous people
that they sought to conquer were unsophisticated and therefore stupid!.
we all know now that the Zulu were nothing of the kind... True they did
not enslave time and divide it to nothingless as the ' the modern ' world
did.. but the Zulu had been around Europeans for 50 odd years and had
come to learn how we measured time, ask any Zulu to meet at a precise
time three weeks hence and there he would be. same as the speed in
which the Zulu could transmit complex information over the entire country,
shouting the news from hill to hill, from valley to valley, there is so much
to admire about those people. xhosa |
| | | | | | Missing five hours question | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| | Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |
Home 
Search 
Register 
Log in 
