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» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
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» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
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» South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)
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» British Fort Locations
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» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment
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    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4015
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    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 10:28 pm

    Taff
    Smith-Dorrien did not come under scrutiny for leaving his men in the battle. He didn't have any men to leave!!

    All
    One of the possible survivors in England's Sons is now identified as definite.
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    ymob

    ymob


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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 10:38 pm

    Julian Whybra wrote:
    Taff
    Smith-Dorrien did not come under scrutiny for leaving his men in the battle.  He didn't have any men to leave!!

    All
    One of the possible survivors in England's Sons is now identified as definite.

    Bonsoir Mister Whybra,
    Can you give us his name? (Chermside? Gooding? / Raymond? / Hallaghan?)
    Cheers
    Frédéric
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    rusteze

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 10:48 pm

    Keep them guessing Julian. I only say that because I know the answer, having recently acquired a copy of England's Sons with an addendum!

    Steve
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    ymob

    ymob


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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 11:26 pm

    Steve,
    Give me the name and i tell you the source for FROWEN. Very Happy
    Cheers
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    Julian Whybra




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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 27, 2015 7:28 am

    Gooding (acknowledgement to Rai England)
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 27, 2015 7:54 am

    Well done Julian & Rai , good work . You need to study mo
    90th
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    ymob

    ymob


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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 27, 2015 8:17 am

    90th wrote:
    Well done Julian & Rai , good work . You need to study mo
    90th

    Thank you Mister Whybra/
    Cheers
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    Taff price




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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Feb 28, 2015 8:20 pm

    Hi Littlehand /Julian
    Yes, Thanks! I stand corrected.
    Because of his conduct in trying to help other soldiers during his dramatic escape from the battlefield, he was nominated for a Victoria Cross, but, as the nomination did not go through the proper channels, he never received it.
    Which is a shame, he deserved one.
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    Julian Whybra




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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Feb 28, 2015 11:04 pm

    Nominated?
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 01, 2015 6:50 am

    Suggested?
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 01, 2015 6:53 am

    Hi Taff
    Horace Smith - Dorrien basically went over his superiors head to go to South Africa , as his superior wouldnt release him , Horace went higher , and subsequently gained approval . The paperwork for Horace's VC  went through the wrong channels if memory serves me correctly , Horace , I think , wasnt impressed , but , as he said in his book ( ? ) 50 years or so after the AZW ,  he saw many , many more actions in WW1 worthy of a VC rather than his own effort in 1879 .  I dont have the book but the wording is similar , I think it's mentioned in his book , or , possibly him being quoted later in life . You need to study mo
    Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isandlwana Suvivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 01, 2015 7:01 am

    Possibly Recommended ? .
    90th
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 7:50 pm

    Has anyone seen a reference to Thomas Clear (Lt 1/3NNC) escaping Isandlwana as I found him mentioned in the correspondence of George Massey-Hicks wrote:

    ‘Eastern Province Herald’: 7.2.79 (Friday); At midnight (Thursday) the following telegram, addressed to his brother, was received from Capt. Geo R. Massey-Hicks, 1-3rd Regt of the Natal Native Contingent:-“Pietermaritzburg, Jan 30, 8.10pm – Myself and W Hicks are well, with thirty-eight officers from the Cape. Officers killed: Krohn, Lonsdale, Erskine, McCormack, Avery, Jameson, Chambers, Young, Murray and Pritchard. Narrow escapes: Vaines, Higginson, Ardendorff, and Clear. Will write next mail”.

    Thomas Clear for info was born in Ireland in 1853 and served with the FAMP between 1870-73. He was also in the Kaffriarian Rifles during the Ninth Frontier War. After the AZW he served with the Griqualand West Border Police.

    Cam.
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    ymob

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 8:17 pm

    Bonjour,
    I don'd find his name in the list of European survivors and possible European survivors in "England's sons: a casualty and survivors roll of British Combatants for the battle of Isandhlwana and the defense of Rorke's Drift" by Mr Julian Whybra.
    Cheers
    Frédéric
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:33 pm

    I think that it is 'Recommended for' and then 'awarded' the VC, when you have been awarded the VC you are then referred to as the 'Recipient'.
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:26 am

    Cam
    All I can offer is that Lt T. Clear is on the Roll in Terry Sole's book ' For God , Queen & Colony ' other than his name that's all that is in the book . I'll check again later I've got to go out for a while .
    90th You need to study mo
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    Julian Whybra




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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 8:50 am

    Very interesting.  Not seen that before.  He does get his precise figure very wrong for the total as well.
    In my listings he's certainly out with Chelmsford.  There's also no corroboration from another source for Clear's having been at the camp and the opposite is true (others giving officers escaped name only Vaines, Adendorff and Higginson).
    For the moment he has to go down as a possible survivor until a second confirmatory can be found.
    Well done!


    Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:25 am

    Couple of errors in that list from memory. Erskine comes straight to mind. I don't have Clear at Helpmakaar either, Nourse, Smythe and Stafford yes.
    For some reason, no idea why, I seem to recall him as J Clear?

    Cheers
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    Julian Whybra




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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:40 am

    Frank
    No, Capt. Charles A. Erskine (o/c no. 4 coy) was killed. You're confusing him with Wallace Erskine.
    42 officers from that unit were with Chelmsford.
    I also have the initial as J. for Lieut. Clear although I note that the 'Thomas' does not come from Massey-Hicks.
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:53 am

    Ah yes, sorry all from memory at present, out of town on safari.
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:58 am

    Cam
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1626
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 6386
    PART 2
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. APPOINTED AS SUB-INSPECTOR. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1906
    ENDING 1906



    Document 2 of 5
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1703
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 4908
    PART 1
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. ANNUAL REPORT ON. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1906
    ENDING 1906
    REMARKS REPORT INCLUDED.



    Document 3 of 5
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1789
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 12416
    PART 1
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J AND DE KOCK, AN. SERGEANTS. TRANSFER OF. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1907
    ENDING 1907



    Document 4 of 5
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1807
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 13978
    PART 1
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. DISCHARGE AND PENSION. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1908
    ENDING 1909
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    Julian Whybra




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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 10:06 am

    Looks like J then!
    That's what I've got from NNC lists.
    I really think this can only be a possible at the moment (and an unlikely one at that) given the contemporary lists that specifically mention the escapees and those out with LC.
    But then, who knows what has still to turn up?
    The question in my mind is why would Massey-Hicks bother to mention him? He couldn't have confused him with another officer because there was no other escaped officer to confuse him with. Could he have confused him with an escaped anonymous N.C.O. perhaps?
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 10:29 am

    Last one then Im off chasing Elephants

    Document 17 of 26
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG Collection
    TYPE Photo
    REFERENCE AG8635
    DESCRIPTION Anglo-Boer War. Group of Boer prisoners, Tent F, Bellevue
    Camp, Simonstown. Back row from left to right: Schalk M,
    Koot M, F Clear, J Wille, J Clear and F Wille. Second row
    from left to right: John, Japie M, Henry and Sybrand. Front
    row from left to right: W Tylor, T Tyler, W Wille and W
    Clear.
    STARTING 0000
    ENDING 0000
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 10:31 am

    The Kimberly connection fits with the Griquland West reference.
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    Julian Whybra




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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 11:44 am

    Cam Simpson
    You said you found this remark in the correspondence of Massey-Hicks. Can you tell me whether this is a printed version or is it the original hand-written docs? I'm trying to exclude the possibility of a mistranscription. If it's a published book can you give me the source so I can check the original please?
    Thanks.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:25 pm

    It does look like a 'J'. I believe I extracted the 'Thomas' from the Griqualand Police Records which I'll re-check.

    Julian, it was a very small newspaper article and of course could have been miss-trancribed from the original letter.

    Cam.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:32 pm

    Cam Simpson
    Thanks. Just to be clear...you're saying it was not in the correspondence of Massey-Hicks, you actually saw a newspaper article in which this appeared. Can you tell me the newspaper, its date (soon after 7.2.79 I imagine) and if possible the page number.
    S. African newspapers would often re-print each others' stories. This might be a re-print of something that appeared in the Eastern Province Herald that was taken from a telegram so the possibility for a mistranscription to creep in is there. I'd like to track down the original source and check it.
    Thank you in advance.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:57 pm

    Looking at my Griqualand West Border Police notes right now:

    CLEAR Thomas. (Beyond a doubt).
    Attested 9.12.81 Constable, GWBP (No13) Age 30.
    Previous Service: 2 years, 5 Months, FAMP 1870-72.
    Kaffrarian Rangers, Gaekeka War 1878.
    'in Lonsdales Contingent and Bettington's Horse in Zulu War 1879'.
    Discharged (Reduction of the Force) 30.8.86.

    Father: Denis Clear. Mother Anne Clear.

    Its a possibility he changed his name, but in saying that they needed to provide testimonials and discharge papers.

    Cam.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:02 pm

    Yes, I read it in the 'Eastern Province Herald' for 7.2.79 and looks like it was the first paper to print it. I've yet to see it in another but in saying that it was very small and I was lucky to notice it.

    Cam.
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:09 pm

    There is at least one brother.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:11 pm

    There were two J. Clears in the Police in Kimberley:

    CLEAR John. Born Dublin, Ireland 15.8.1858. Enlisted 1.8.81. Detective, Kimberley. Detective Enlisted CMR 2.8.81. Sergeant 1.3.01. Transferred to Detective Departmemt 9.8.01. Sub-Inspector c1909.

    CLEAR John. Kilkenny, Ireland. Enlisted 1.10.84 (Age 25). Constable, District No2, Cape Police (No120). Transferred to the Diamond Detective Department 1.5.97.

    I'm yet to find a Thomas or J Clear in the Kaffrarian's or the FAMP….more questions that answers in this chap.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:13 pm

    Julian, I'll be back in amongst the newspapers next week and will re-visit the EPH.

    Cam.
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:16 pm

    Cam
    Is there an F Clear?
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:50 pm

    Not that I can see Frank.

    I noticed that Terry Sole has him listed as 'T. Clear' also. When I get time, I'll dig into ancestry.com to pin the family down.

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    rusteze

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 2:05 pm

    A couple of extracts from the original medal rolls. Clear (no initial) Bettington's Horse. Clear William and Clear John, A Troop 3rd Cape Mounted Yeomanry.
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    Steve
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 2:55 pm

    Strange, there is a William John Clear, declared insolvent in 1900 and a lunatic a few years later. Im also picking up mention of an Edmond Clery
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 8:06 pm

    Let me pose a possible solution to this conundrum.

    I don’t mean to be long-winded but let me explain my reasoning.

    All the evidence states that Lieut. J. Clear was out on the Mangeni Reconnaissance.

    Yet we have a captain in the 1/3rd NNC making a clear statement (no pun intended) that ‘Clear’ was a survivor.

    Both can’t be true.  Or can they?

    We know that there was a John Clear, a Thomas Clear (that was in “Lonsdale’s Force”), and even an F. Clear.  A possible family of Clears.  Not unusual to have several of them in one unit.  Like the Scotts or the Symons or the Tarbotons.

    Massey-Hicks gives two lists: Officers Killed and Narrow Escapes.  Lieut. J. Clear was one of 43 N.N.C. officers not 40 (38 plus Hicks and Massey-Hicks).  Massey-Hicks’s list of Officers Killed omits Holcroft, Bruce (often mistranscribed as Buée) and Grant (all 1/3rd) and Gibson, Rivers and Vereker (all 2/3rd); the Narrow Escapes misspells Adendorff.  Ergo Massey-Hicks made mistakes and omissions.

    We know that there were two 1/3rd NCOs who escaped Isandhlwana and whose names we don’t know (they are nos. M76 and 77 in England’s Sons).  How about if Massey-Hicks is not referring to Lieut. J. Clear but to a Sergt. or Corp. T(homas) Clear?  That way the Lieut. J. Clear can be on the Mangeni and the NCO T. Clear can be at Isandhlwana.

    I suggest Terry Sole has confused the matter by stating in his book that Lieut. T. Clear was a survivor.  I think he has ‘assumed’ that the Clear referred to by Massey-Hicks was the same man as Lieut. J. Clear.

    It’s a thought and I could be wrong but it might explain the discrepancy.  Thoughts?

    The proof would lie in a complete list of NCOs in the 1/3rd NNC. Any takers?
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 8:22 pm

    Ah yes, how many pipes (cups of tea) was that solution worth? Soon as Im back in town I will meet up with Cam for coffee and compare notes but in the mean time its an early game drive so time for a glass of something and sleep.

    Cheers
    PS I believe that a solution could lay in the archives and the references to J Clear Diamond Detective.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:39 pm

    Julian, that all makes sense. I've got some more notes on the two John Clear's that were in Kimberley in the 1880's so I'll try and get these together over the weekend.

    Frank, I believe your right about the files in the achieves. Lieutenant's Festing and Garde of the NNC both later became Constables and had very detailed pension files.

    See you when your back in town.

    Cam.
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 4:05 am

    Hi All
    Is it possible Massey - Hicks just mentioned or meant T.Clear as being a survivor of the '' DAY '' , and not necessarily meaning the actual battle at Isandlwana , possibly because of to whom he was writing , knew T. Clear personally ? . Hope this made sense ? .
    90th scratch
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 6:05 am

    90th, Indeed and the assumption must be that his brother knew these people other wise why mention a name.

    Julian, what's the source that places Clear with Dartnel?

    Thinking about the NCO angle I looked through my notes from the Natal Mercury (27 Jan 79) that provides a list Officers and NCO's and men serving with Lonsdale and it does mention 'T. Clear' as being a Lieut. He's the only Clear on this particular roll. (22 Captains, 42 Lt's, 57 Sgt's & 35 Cpl's). Obviously like all roll's it's riddled with mistakes.


    Cam.
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    Frank Allewell

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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 6:22 am

    Yeah I know this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject in question and Im probably going to get a b*******g from Pete but what the hell this is my early morning view.
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

    Cam
    Next week lm going to spend a couple of hours in the archives, maybe get together in Dunkly Square for lunch?
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 6:52 am

    Frank, sounds great, I've got an Archives to do list; Estate Papers etc of former NNC Men. Let me know what day.

    Cam.
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isaslwana Survivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 7:36 am

    Hi Frank
    I hope breakfast was as good as the view ? LOL .
    90th Joker Shocked Shocked
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 8:28 am

    Frank
    The only other possibility is a mistranscription or an error.
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 9:25 am

    There is another possibility by which J or T Clear could have been described as having a narrow escape.  What if he carried either Pulleine or Gardner's message? I believe Hayhow carried one of them but the other...?
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 5:51 pm

    Yes, or even an unknown event with Dartnel's force that has been lost to time.
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 8:37 pm

    Hi Cam
    Quite possible , unfortunately we may never know No
    90th Salute
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    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 9:46 am

    Actually I think we shall get to the bottom of this. I have a few things to check and I know Frank has. As an absolute last resort Clear will have had descendants and they may hold docs or oral history that will confirm one way or the other. Forgive the cliche but time will tell.
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    90th

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    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 9:52 am

    I hope so Julian , would be excellent to possibly have T. Clear recorded as an Isandlwana survivor , one way or the other .
    90th
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