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    AuthorMessage
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyTue Jun 09, 2020 6:33 pm

    From Cam
    Hi Frank, good to hear from you. I'm still stuck in Morocco with no prospect to return until the air space opens up.

    I think that over time, Ashby has the name wrong as their was no officer called Palmer.

    Ferreira's Troop was, as you said not at Hblobane so it cannot be Cpl Palmer. There was a Deputy Commissary General C. Palmer but it's a stretch. I come back to the original point that I think Ashby has the name wrong. There was a Lieutenant Walter Parkin in Bakers Horse but I'm not sure if he was at Hlobane.

    Cam.
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    John Young

    John Young


    Posts : 3249
    Join date : 2013-09-08
    Age : 68
    Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyTue Jun 09, 2020 8:36 pm

    I think we can very safely disregard it being Deputy Commissary General Charles Palmer of the Commissariat & Transport Department.  Born on 6th April 1827, Palmer was first commissioned in January 1845, he had previously served in 8th Cape Frontier War and the Crimea.

    He arrived in Pietermaritzburg in February 1879, where he was placed in charge of the accounts and returns.  He was for short while in charge of the Commissariat Department, before he ...was attacked with paralysis, and invalided.

    JY
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    Commandergood




    Posts : 16
    Join date : 2012-03-13

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 1:58 pm

    I still wonder whether some of Ferreira's Horse could have been sent out with the Border Horse or FLH as they were all in Wood's column serving under Buller according to SA Military History Society. Still I suppose we'll never know!
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    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
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    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 3:09 pm

    What about the two Parminters from Bakers Horse, one was killed and one survived ( from Cam)
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    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
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    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 3:23 pm

    Sub Lieutenant Parminter was killed but Major WG Parminter was described by Lieutenent William Tomasson as:"the last man to leave and his deeds were worth a VC."

    William Parminter was born in Stuttgart and was prominent as the commander of Baker's Horse in the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879. He acted very bravely at the terrible descent of Devil's Pass on Hlobane Mountain and according to one eye-witness was the last to leave the mountain after rescuing men. Described as 'A very gallant gentleman of the very best English type.' and worthy of winning the VC. He fought again at Ulundi, and after the war, in 1884 he accompanied the explorer H M Stanley on his expedition in the Congo. He was married with a son, Reginald, who was born in 1893, a year before William died. He was 43 years old when he died in Nice in Jan 1894.
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    John Young

    John Young


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    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 6:40 pm

    Frank,

    I appreciate Cam is away from his books, the KIA was a Sub-Lieutenant Horace Walter Parminter, Weatherley’s Border Lancers (or Horse), the survivor was Captain William George Parminter was from Baker’s Horse, rather than them both being members of Baker’s Horse.

    His comments are interesting though, were both Parminters related?  Cam mentions Stuttgart for William, and Charles Newman writes that Horace was from Statgarelt?  I can’t find a place called Statgarlelt, so I wonder if it is a typographical error and should read Stuttgart?

    The other interesting point is that of William George Parminter accompanying H. M. Stanley on an expedition.  On one of his later expeditions, the Emin Pasha Relief Expedition, Stanley was accompanied by another former member of Baker’s Horse - Captain Robert Henry Nelson.  At least one other ZW veteran, former Private William Bonny, of the Army Hospital Corps, was also part of that expedition.

    JY
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    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
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    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 9:01 am

    There is quite an extensive thread on Parminter from 2011 started by Littlehand
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    WeekendWarrior

    WeekendWarrior


    Posts : 270
    Join date : 2017-07-21
    Location : San Diego, CA

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 6:14 pm

    Here's my running list of European Survivors:

    Leadership/Staff
    CPT Edward Essex, 75th Regiment.
    CPT Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars.
    LT Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment.
    Interpreter J. Brickhill.
    Sir Harry Flashman VC, KB, KCIE. (Observer)

    Rocket Battery
    Gunner Taylor (Batman to MAJ Russell)
    a/Bombardier Goff.
    PTE Hector Grant, 1/24th.
    PTE Trainer, 1/24th.
    PTE William Johnson, 1/24th.

    Newcastle Mounted Rifles
    Trumpeter J. Horne
    Trooper Burne
    Trooper Donald Moodie
    Sergeant John Walsh
    Trooper John Berning
    Trooper Thomas Brown
    Trooper Hendrick Parsons

    Buffalo Border Guard
    QM Dugald MacPhail
    Trooper Lennox
    QM SGT William Adams, Sr.
    Trooper John Adams
    Trooper Charles Stretch

    Natal Mounted Police
    Trooper Charles Sparks
    Trooper William Hayes
    Trooper G. Collier
    Corporal Robert Eaton
    Trooper Robert Kincade
    Trooper R. Shannon
    Trooper D. Doig
    Trooper W. Dorehill
    Trumpeter Richard Stevens

    Natal Carbineers
    Trooper Andrew Muirhead
    Trooper Charles Fletcher
    Trooper William Edwards
    Trooper William Barker
    Trooper W. Granger
    Trooper W. Sibthorpe

    Imperial Mounted Infantry
    Sergeant Patrick Naughton, 3rd Regiment.
    Corporal John McCan, 1/24th.
    Private Samuel Wassall, VC, 80th Regiment.
    Private Thomas Westwood, 80th Regiment.
    Private Henry Davis, 1/24th.
    Private William Parry, 1/24th.
    Private John Power, 1/24th.
    Private David Whelan, 13th Regiment.
    Private Edward Evans, 3rd Regiment.
    Private Jon Gascoigne, 3rd Regiment.

    24th Regiment of Foot
    Private James Bickley
    Private Edmund Wilson
    Private John Williams

    N Battery, 5th Brigade, Royal Artillery
    LT Henry Curling
    SGT John Costellow
    Driver Elias Tucker
    Driver John Baggely
    Driver E Price
    Driver James Burchell
    Gunner William Green
    Gunner T. Hallaghan
    Trumpeter Nicholas Martin
    Shoeing-Smith Joseph Steer
    Shoeing-Smith George Townsend
    Bombardier Albert Wyatt

    Natal Native Horse
    Captain William Barton
    Lieutenant Charles Raw
    Lieutenant Richard Vause
    Lieutenant Alfred Henderson
    Lieutenant William Cochrane
    Lieutenant Henry Davies

    Natal Native Contingent
    Captain David Smythe
    Captain C. Nourse
    Captain Walter Stafford
    Lieutenant Wallace Erskine
    Lieutenant Gert Adendorff
    Lieutenant Walter Higginson
    Lieutenant E. Skottowe
    Lieutenant T. Vaines
    Sergeant Major Thomas Sharp
    Sergeant Major J. Williams

    Commissariat and Transport Department
    Acting Control Officer James Hamer
    Conductor Martin Foley
    Conductor Robert Hall

    Natal Native Pioneers
    Lieutenant George Andrews (There is some suggestion that he was an NNC Lieutenant instead)

    Uncertain Presence
    Mr. Alexander
    Paymaster Henry Dawson
    Acting Commissariat R. Chermside


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    John Young

    John Young


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    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 8:47 pm

    Michael,

    Just to correct your very last entry.

    There was nothing 'Acting' about Assistant Commissary Robert (Bobby) Alexander Chermside. He was a regular officer, the son of Major-General Henry Lowther Chermside, C.B.

    Chermside was commissioned as an Ensign into the 63rd (West Suffolk) Regiment on 8th July 1868 from the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.  However, his stay with the 63rd was very short-lived as on the following day, 9th July 1868 he transferred to the 88th (Connaught Rangers) Regiment.

    He transferred to the then Control Department as an Assistant-Commissary on 1st September 1870.

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    Genteman Cadet Robert Alexander Chermside, Royal Military College, circa 1867.
    (John Young Collection.)

    JY

    (Ps Will you have to pay the estate of George MacDonald Fraser to include your Observer?)
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    WeekendWarrior

    WeekendWarrior


    Posts : 270
    Join date : 2017-07-21
    Location : San Diego, CA

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 9:55 pm

    Mr. Young,

    Great CDV, never seen that one before!!! I appreciate the correction on his rank. Frankly I have had little luck tracing Chermside outside of Hart's. Doesn't seem to have left much.

    Best,
    Michael D
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    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3992
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 12, 2020 8:56 am

    Weekend Warrior
    I can add ten 'provenanced' Europeans to that total and discount one of the uncertains.
    And then of course there's the Africans...
    I am hoping that the very latest improved and updated edition of England's Sons will be available at the end of this month (lockdown restrictions permitting).
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    WeekendWarrior

    WeekendWarrior


    Posts : 270
    Join date : 2017-07-21
    Location : San Diego, CA

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 12, 2020 8:44 pm

    Can't wait for the new edition!
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    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10882
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 68
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Isaandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptySat Jun 13, 2020 6:21 am

    Indeed W.Warrior (M.D) , I'm also looking forward to it's release .
    90th You need to study mo
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    Altamont




    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2016-07-03

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptySun Jul 18, 2021 11:52 am

    WeekendWarrior wrote:
    Here's my running list of European Survivors:

    Leadership/Staff
    CPT Edward Essex, 75th Regiment.
    CPT Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars.
    LT Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment.
    Interpreter J. Brickhill.
    Sir Harry Flashman VC, KB, KCIE. (Observer)



    People seem to forget that Allan Quatermain was also present and survived Wink
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    aussie inkosi

    aussie inkosi


    Posts : 429
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    Age : 58
    Location : MELBOURNE

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptySun Jul 18, 2021 2:30 pm

    Hi Weekend Warrior

    You forgot Trooper WILLIAM TARBOTOM of the Natal Carbineers
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