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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyTue Jun 09, 2020 6:33 pm

From Cam
Hi Frank, good to hear from you. I'm still stuck in Morocco with no prospect to return until the air space opens up.

I think that over time, Ashby has the name wrong as their was no officer called Palmer.

Ferreira's Troop was, as you said not at Hblobane so it cannot be Cpl Palmer. There was a Deputy Commissary General C. Palmer but it's a stretch. I come back to the original point that I think Ashby has the name wrong. There was a Lieutenant Walter Parkin in Bakers Horse but I'm not sure if he was at Hlobane.

Cam.
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John Young

John Young


Posts : 2337
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyTue Jun 09, 2020 8:36 pm

I think we can very safely disregard it being Deputy Commissary General Charles Palmer of the Commissariat & Transport Department.  Born on 6th April 1827, Palmer was first commissioned in January 1845, he had previously served in 8th Cape Frontier War and the Crimea.

He arrived in Pietermaritzburg in February 1879, where he was placed in charge of the accounts and returns.  He was for short while in charge of the Commissariat Department, before he ...was attacked with paralysis, and invalided.

JY
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Commandergood




Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-03-13

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 1:58 pm

I still wonder whether some of Ferreira's Horse could have been sent out with the Border Horse or FLH as they were all in Wood's column serving under Buller according to SA Military History Society. Still I suppose we'll never know!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 3:09 pm

What about the two Parminters from Bakers Horse, one was killed and one survived ( from Cam)
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 3:23 pm

Sub Lieutenant Parminter was killed but Major WG Parminter was described by Lieutenent William Tomasson as:"the last man to leave and his deeds were worth a VC."

William Parminter was born in Stuttgart and was prominent as the commander of Baker's Horse in the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879. He acted very bravely at the terrible descent of Devil's Pass on Hlobane Mountain and according to one eye-witness was the last to leave the mountain after rescuing men. Described as 'A very gallant gentleman of the very best English type.' and worthy of winning the VC. He fought again at Ulundi, and after the war, in 1884 he accompanied the explorer H M Stanley on his expedition in the Congo. He was married with a son, Reginald, who was born in 1893, a year before William died. He was 43 years old when he died in Nice in Jan 1894.
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John Young

John Young


Posts : 2337
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyWed Jun 10, 2020 6:40 pm

Frank,

I appreciate Cam is away from his books, the KIA was a Sub-Lieutenant Horace Walter Parminter, Weatherley’s Border Lancers (or Horse), the survivor was Captain William George Parminter was from Baker’s Horse, rather than them both being members of Baker’s Horse.

His comments are interesting though, were both Parminters related?  Cam mentions Stuttgart for William, and Charles Newman writes that Horace was from Statgarelt?  I can’t find a place called Statgarlelt, so I wonder if it is a typographical error and should read Stuttgart?

The other interesting point is that of William George Parminter accompanying H. M. Stanley on an expedition.  On one of his later expeditions, the Emin Pasha Relief Expedition, Stanley was accompanied by another former member of Baker’s Horse - Captain Robert Henry Nelson.  At least one other ZW veteran, former Private William Bonny, of the Army Hospital Corps, was also part of that expedition.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 9:01 am

There is quite an extensive thread on Parminter from 2011 started by Littlehand
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 185
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 6:14 pm

Here's my running list of European Survivors:

Leadership/Staff
CPT Edward Essex, 75th Regiment.
CPT Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars.
LT Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment.
Interpreter J. Brickhill.
Sir Harry Flashman VC, KB, KCIE. (Observer)

Rocket Battery
Gunner Taylor (Batman to MAJ Russell)
a/Bombardier Goff.
PTE Hector Grant, 1/24th.
PTE Trainer, 1/24th.
PTE William Johnson, 1/24th.

Newcastle Mounted Rifles
Trumpeter J. Horne
Trooper Burne
Trooper Donald Moodie
Sergeant John Walsh
Trooper John Berning
Trooper Thomas Brown
Trooper Hendrick Parsons

Buffalo Border Guard
QM Dugald MacPhail
Trooper Lennox
QM SGT William Adams, Sr.
Trooper John Adams
Trooper Charles Stretch

Natal Mounted Police
Trooper Charles Sparks
Trooper William Hayes
Trooper G. Collier
Corporal Robert Eaton
Trooper Robert Kincade
Trooper R. Shannon
Trooper D. Doig
Trooper W. Dorehill
Trumpeter Richard Stevens

Natal Carbineers
Trooper Andrew Muirhead
Trooper Charles Fletcher
Trooper William Edwards
Trooper William Barker
Trooper W. Granger
Trooper W. Sibthorpe

Imperial Mounted Infantry
Sergeant Patrick Naughton, 3rd Regiment.
Corporal John McCan, 1/24th.
Private Samuel Wassall, VC, 80th Regiment.
Private Thomas Westwood, 80th Regiment.
Private Henry Davis, 1/24th.
Private William Parry, 1/24th.
Private John Power, 1/24th.
Private David Whelan, 13th Regiment.
Private Edward Evans, 3rd Regiment.
Private Jon Gascoigne, 3rd Regiment.

24th Regiment of Foot
Private James Bickley
Private Edmund Wilson
Private John Williams

N Battery, 5th Brigade, Royal Artillery
LT Henry Curling
SGT John Costellow
Driver Elias Tucker
Driver John Baggely
Driver E Price
Driver James Burchell
Gunner William Green
Gunner T. Hallaghan
Trumpeter Nicholas Martin
Shoeing-Smith Joseph Steer
Shoeing-Smith George Townsend
Bombardier Albert Wyatt

Natal Native Horse
Captain William Barton
Lieutenant Charles Raw
Lieutenant Richard Vause
Lieutenant Alfred Henderson
Lieutenant William Cochrane
Lieutenant Henry Davies

Natal Native Contingent
Captain David Smythe
Captain C. Nourse
Captain Walter Stafford
Lieutenant Wallace Erskine
Lieutenant Gert Adendorff
Lieutenant Walter Higginson
Lieutenant E. Skottowe
Lieutenant T. Vaines
Sergeant Major Thomas Sharp
Sergeant Major J. Williams

Commissariat and Transport Department
Acting Control Officer James Hamer
Conductor Martin Foley
Conductor Robert Hall

Natal Native Pioneers
Lieutenant George Andrews (There is some suggestion that he was an NNC Lieutenant instead)

Uncertain Presence
Mr. Alexander
Paymaster Henry Dawson
Acting Commissariat R. Chermside


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John Young

John Young


Posts : 2337
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 8:47 pm

Michael,

Just to correct your very last entry.

There was nothing 'Acting' about Assistant Commissary Robert (Bobby) Alexander Chermside. He was a regular officer, the son of Major-General Henry Lowther Chermside, C.B.

Chermside was commissioned as an Ensign into the 63rd (West Suffolk) Regiment on 8th July 1868 from the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.  However, his stay with the 63rd was very short-lived as on the following day, 9th July 1868 he transferred to the 88th (Connaught Rangers) Regiment.

He transferred to the then Control Department as an Assistant-Commissary on 1st September 1870.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Genteman Cadet Robert Alexander Chermside, Royal Military College, circa 1867.
(John Young Collection.)

JY

(Ps Will you have to pay the estate of George MacDonald Fraser to include your Observer?)
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 185
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 9:55 pm

Mr. Young,

Great CDV, never seen that one before!!! I appreciate the correction on his rank. Frankly I have had little luck tracing Chermside outside of Hart's. Doesn't seem to have left much.

Best,
Michael D
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2587
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 12, 2020 8:56 am

Weekend Warrior
I can add ten 'provenanced' Europeans to that total and discount one of the uncertains.
And then of course there's the Africans...
I am hoping that the very latest improved and updated edition of England's Sons will be available at the end of this month (lockdown restrictions permitting).
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 185
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 12, 2020 8:44 pm

Can't wait for the new edition!
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90th

90th


Posts : 10386
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 65
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Isaandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptySat Jun 13, 2020 6:21 am

Indeed W.Warrior (M.D) , I'm also looking forward to it's release .
90th You need to study mo
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Altamont




Posts : 4
Join date : 2016-07-03

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptySun Jul 18, 2021 11:52 am

WeekendWarrior wrote:
Here's my running list of European Survivors:

Leadership/Staff
CPT Edward Essex, 75th Regiment.
CPT Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars.
LT Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment.
Interpreter J. Brickhill.
Sir Harry Flashman VC, KB, KCIE. (Observer)



People seem to forget that Allan Quatermain was also present and survived Wink
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 266
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 56
Location : MELBOURNE

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 7 EmptySun Jul 18, 2021 2:30 pm

Hi Weekend Warrior

You forgot Trooper WILLIAM TARBOTOM of the Natal Carbineers
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