Isandlwana, Last Stands

Springbok
If you don't have Boast's map of the cairns, it appears in Jackson's book - the Anstey/F coy cairn can clearly be seen on the Manzimnyama.
Re Pulleine's body, both Glyn (whilst going from the saddle into the camp) and Hamilton-Browne (whilst riding back from the NNC area to the waggon track) found the body separately on the camp side of the Saddle.

Bonsoir Springbok

When I say that you are an expert as Gary of Australia, I believe sincerely, for I have little knowledge in the end, but beware of books because there are almost as many opinions as there are authors ...

In this regard what book it is important not to buy on the Zulu War ...?

Finally in 2022, I know any harm ... on all belligerents of wars in South Africas before 1899 ... and my English will also be improved ...

I'm relying a lot to announce what some on the forum (which you, Barry, julian ,Gary of Australia and neil)

Careful because it seems, he peddled that have errors ...

I trust my intuition and also more than 30 years of war games, it helps a lot, because we see things clearly ...

For example I was thinking like plupard people that there were only 139 defenders in DR ...

Well, thanks to Julian I know he had yn over 150 ...
The problem now is that I yell with all my friends who do not want to believe me ...

See Barry's knowledge of the police to believe he was gone ...

And Neil, he still more knowledge on firearms of that time, since he possesses .. ect ...

Cheers

Pascal

Bonsoir mon Pascal,


Correct, one and the same.


barry

Springbok Boast map within link below.

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Julian/Admin

Thanks to both of you, yes I do have the Boast map.

Hamilton Brown identified Pulleines' body whilst riding back from inspecting his demolished tent area. He doesnt say where, merely that he was racing to join the departing column.
I havent as yet found any mention that it was in the tent area.

There are the cairns, the L shaped group, on the reverse slope very close to the original road line, due to the number of those cairns it was an obviously large stand, lead by a man of consequence.
The sightings from the top of Shiyane before the RD conflict mentioned the troops fighting in a Kraal. There were two kraals shown on the Anstey map. And those sightings were interupted by the excitment of the news reaching RD of the battle, so again after the 3 o clock mark. That timing fits in with the fact that looking down the valley they saw the impi forming up after crossing the Mzinyathi.

I do realise that my placing of Pullein with that group is hypothetical, but I cant see him being killed of down on the front line, no matter what Mike Snook says. Being the most senior officer Im sure he would have rallied troops around him so conjecturally its highly possible that he could have got back to the saddle.

The interesting issue about those L shaped cairns is their position, not on the later fugitives trail but of at a tangent. Surely if that significant portion of troops were part of the Anstey group they would have been positioned more on the oblique line that the other cairns form.

There is a painting by William Whitelock Lloyd of the saddle from the west ( A Soldier Artist in Zululand by David Rattray) it shows the old road and a rather impresive wash away or erosion to the south of the road its again possible that the 'donga' is what seperated these elements on their retreat. And again its highly possible that this is the donga that upset the artillery.

Whitelock incidently was a very accurate artist, his other paintings compared to modern photos are remarkable.

He also painted the battlefield with interestingly very obvious opened ammo boxes scattered around. I cant unfortunatly reproduce those paintings, patent rights or not, out of respect for David.

All conjecture but thats the allure of this battle.

Regards

A niggle has allways annoyed me about the story of 1st battalion runners being refused ammo by Bloomfiels ( 2/24)
The 2/24th ammunition wagons where behind the 2/24th tents to the south of the road adjacent to the guard tent. The 1/24 ammunition wagons where behind 2/24th tents pretty central on the eastern face of the mountain. With the fighting taking place primarily on the end closest to the 1/24th why would the runners elect to run half way across the battlefield to get to the 2/24th. Surely QM Pullens wagons, their own, would have been the target.
And yet both Essex and Smith Dorean were at Bloomfields wagons?

Any theories?

I think he saw the panic would look at the cartridges ready, without worrying about the rest ...

Hi Springbok .
In reply to one of your ealier posts today or yesterday , never have I or Barry mentioned that '' NO '' ammunition was getting through , merely trying to put forward the theory that not enough was getting through . Obviously enough to perform the withdrawl but not enough to have plenty of rounds in the kick as they say .

Julian you say '' At the time the mules were seen running about the camp , the perimeter had gone , there was no firing line ''
can you tell me the source of this information ? . As I cant seem to find it . Not sure how you can suggest '' Saying that mules were running about at that stage of the battle however does NOT indicate that the line had not been replenished with ammunition when the line was intact , in fact , it indicates that an ammunition supply had been well and truly up and running ''.
In my opinion by all appearances yes , but if the ammo laden mules were in the camp so was the ammunition ! , it wasnt at the front . In your reply under the point of ( 1 ) '' and it was carried out to them '' If I remember correctly there is no mention of Scotch
Carts or any other carts ( In the Plural ) being ushered to the line , maybe one is mentioned , can you tell me the primary sources that say or quote '' CARTS '' were sent to the firing line ? . Once again myself and Barry ( thought I'd throw him in as well ) , have NEVER suggested that '' NO AMMO '' was getting to the firing line !. I've also never implied that the troops
'' RAN OUT '' of rounds on the firing line , merely putting forward a suggestion that they didnt have as much ammo as is thought .
I may be wrong ! . But I cant prove my theory and cant see how you can prove yours to 100 % accuracy !.
As for the 100 rounds or 70 rounds ? . I've never heard of 100 rounds being issued , do we know for sure how many were issued ?. Sorry I dont , if you do , can you name your source ?. So I'm not ignoring it , just havent heard of it before from memory . In regard to point ( 3 ) I agree primary sources are missing , but from both sides of the fence , as I said I'm merely attempting to lodge an arguement as to what may have occured .
Cheers 90th

can you

Hi Gary,

Precisely the point . If the mules did not get through but were found by Trooper Clarke some 10 days later, dead on the Fugitives trail but with their loads intact, who did not get their ammo supplied? A pLausible answer is required, not mere speculation as to what should have, or might have happened. Unrealistic speculation seems to pervade this subject..


regards

barry

90th
Greetings.
Sure I agree that the comment, " no ammo ", was not used. I am merely pointing to sources that indicate a "sufficient amount " was dispersed.
The original premise of this string was that: 'A lack of ammunition/shortage of ammunition caused the collapse'.
I hesitate to speak for Julian ( God forbid ), but my counter point has been that statement/statements was not based on any source material.
The arguments have been quotations from 3rd sources ( Holts), and your own structured to say that there was ammo getting through but probably not enough ( thats how Ive read it, but quite happy to be corrected).

In a nutshell Ive premised that it would have been impossible for the companies to move the distance they did without sufficient ammo.
Ive also tried to show where they could have replenished themselves..
in counter arguing that the wagons could not have been used ive tried to show that they could indeed, without impediment.

Julians arguments have been directed more at source materialthat indicates a supple system was in place, and correcting miss quoted statements.

Without wishing in any way to interfere in the counter that is bound to come from Julian, your statement on "if the ammo laden mules were still in the camp, so was the ammo", would only hold true if we were talking of a limited amount of boxes, ie: there were only 4 boxes and the mules were seen running with 4 boxes.
The converse is however more to the point. There were a lot of boxes of ammo so potentially the mules could have delivered a lot of them before they were witnessed running around.
Dont think Ive made the point very well, hope it comes across.

Statements made by the suvivors confirm that ammo was getting to the front ( Read letted Smith Dorean to his father, Essex Statement that "he followed (SD) with a mule cart". Now reading that statement carefully it says: In loadind the latter ( his mule cart ) I helped the quarter master of the 2nb Battalion ( Bloomfield) to place boxes in a cart and while doing so the poor fellow was shot dead."
Surely that statement indicates that his Mule Cart was full and he was ready to follow Smith Dorean to the line but stayed to help load another mule cart.

That surely should convince anyone that there was more than one cart in operation? If it doesnt consider that Essex was talking of the 2/24th supply. The 1/24 would also have been issuing at the same time.

By Ian Knight: " the army had bought up a number of locally made mule drawn scotch carts instead. each could easily carry 30 boxes."

So from source its established there were carts available, from source its established they were being used.

Comment was made at some point about panic and systems not being in place. Consider this, testimony from Private Wilson was that at the onset stretcher bearers took up position behind the companies ready to carry back to the field hospital. Again a pointer that systems were in place.

As a counter to the oft expressed argument that the companies retreated because they were out of ammo: Malinda, " a company of soldiers was with us and on nearing the tents knelt down and commenced firng at the enemy. Below them some distance to the west was another company or more of soldiers also kneeling and firing."
So again source proof that even after leaving the front line the companies still had sufficient ammo.
Barker of the Carbineers: after retiring from the donga, " I went down the hill to our immediate front ( along the line of the road to the donga) and joined Hawkins Swift two Tarbotons and Edwards and commenced firing........after about a dozen shots I noticed or rather heard a rush from behind ( zulus entering the camp)........."
Two more sources that confirm they had sufficient ammo.
There are a lot more accounts from both sides that talk of the' intense firing'.

All in all really any suggestion ( and there is no first hand source ) that theres was not sufficient ammo is really discredited. ( No thanks really to TWOTS)

Cheers mate.

Barry
Sorry boet our posts crossed.
If a couple of mules were found on the trail it proves what? Only that two mules ran that way is all. It does not prove in any way that those were the only source of getting ammo to the front, it does not prove that they were the only mules, it does not prove that the load was the only load that they carried that day.
My previous post is not based on any unfounded speculation but is rather supported by documented first hand source material.[i][b]

Im happy that these points are debated, but for any level of credibility please give source references rather than a blanket denial based on theory.

Cheers Mate

Hi Springbok .
I have mentioned I havent any primary sources to quote because they were all killed . I'm merely attempting to '' put it out there ''
that this may have ocurred .I agree they must have had sufficient to effect the withdrawl to a certain degree as this took place .
Although what was the rate of fire during the withdrawl ? , slow and orderley one would presume , wouldnt this be , in a way a case
of attempting to husband the rounds they had on their person ? . Do you agree ? . Hate to say it but how many wagons / carts are we talking about ? . No-one knows !. If the wagons were fully utilized why did they see the necessity for individuals to be '' Carrying Ammunition to the front '' as this can only be done with arms or hands it isnt a large amount going forward , agreed ?.
How many boxes per mule ? . Can you name a source which gives us a definitive answer ? . The converse doesnt add up , because as I've mentioned why are individuals carrying ammunition to the front if all the carts and mules have done their required tasks ?. This is the point I'm endevouring to put forward . Your statement regarding S-Dorrien helping Bloomfield
load the cart Indicates it was full , He doesnt say it was full does he ? . If so can you tell where I can find that statement .
As you say sources indicate Carts were there but how many ? . If I remember correctly there was not as many Carts or wagons
used in the invasion that were deemed to be neccessary , happy to be corrected . So therfore how many made it to the firing line ? . And as a matter of conjecture stayed there without bolting due to the noise etc , as I'm sure the civilian owned animals would never had heard that much noise ever in their working life . It's also been mentioned that many of these carts were seconded to the invasion force from the public of Natal , so therefore this point may have some credence ! . I'm sure I've never mentioned the withdrawl was due to complete Ammo failure , but I'm thinking it didnt help !. Sufficient and running low , what is the differance ? . Sufficient say 25 -35 ? , after 20 mins is it possible it's as low as 15 -25 ? . How long would it have taken to effect the withdrawl ? . If I was on the front line and had anything less than 50 !!!! before the withdrawl I'd certainly think I was beginning to run low or become short ! . Wouldnt anyone ?. The fact of the matter is we all agree to disagree , and I dont see anything wrong with that , do you ? .
cheers mate , 90th.

PS. I need a beer , we just got home against Sri - lanka , they needed 6 from two balls with 9 out . Luckily mathews holed out at long on .

Why they used mules, if they had scotch car ?

Not sure how accurate this is.


THE ANGLO ZULU WAR OF 1879
BY
ROBERT GERRARD FRGS

Part 3



THE BATTLE OF ISANDLWANA


"Isandlwana is situated at the western end of a huge plain, stretching eastwards for thirteen miles before coming to rest at the foot of the iSiphezu and Nakandklaas range of mountains.

One must try to visualise the British encampment.
Hundreds of little white bell tents spread across the eastern slopes of ISandlwana for 800 yards, in straight lines, covering an area of half a square mile.

To the immediate south of the mountain is a narrow neck or saddle, and to the south of the saddle, a small koppie (hill), that would become known as Black’s Koppie. In the saddle are 4,500 oxen, 220 wagons and carts, and about 50 horses, donkeys and mules."

Hello dear sir

Yes but the Scotch car are regimental vehicles, nothing to do with the logistics of the column, I do not think there were otherwise they would have used, not mules as it was in fact for each company ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal
Had to use mules because they didnt have any scotch ( joking reference to your comments about alchoholic soldiers :lol:

OH
Rob Gerrard is right up there so I would tend to agree with him.


90th

Save the best till last.

Sources

Smith Dorean letter to his father about the time he spent distributing ammo..............source
Essex testimoy about at least two scotch carts. And the fact that his was full.
Lt C Penrose, Types of Wagons used in the Zulu Wars. AZW 16200/587 Talana Museum Archives.
Smith Dorean memoirs on his early time in natal procuring transport.

There are primary sources that say there was no ammo problem, non that says there was.
Im happy to conceed............just..............that there could have been a use for more carts, hence people carrying ammo by horse and hand.



Highly possible they were husbanding rounds, however look at the zulu testimonies, there all in your books ( I know for a fact you have the biggest collection on the forum) :lol: They all refer to the Fierce firing, the tumult of the guns, the warriors been mown down in droves.
Look at the maps drawn and see the accumalation of expendid rounds.
And without a shadow of doubt they did run out.............. thats why the Zulu won. However I refer back to the original point..........The battle was lost because the troops on the firing line ran out of ammo. Thats the point, and it was made, that I contest.
Mitford, Moodie and Emery have source quotes. I could quote from them at length, but fairs fair shoot down my arguments first with proof.

Cheers Mate

Hi Springbok,
Correct and apologies, our lines did cross and the "speculation" bit was not directed at what was said about mules running around the camp.I believe that actually happened. Further it is corrobarated by Tpr Clarke finding two dead pack mules on the Fugitives trail still intact with their loads.
My actual point is that was much was made of possible delivery methods, scotch/mule carts or wagons, but little or no cognisance given to the fact the colonials used pack mules.
Which brings me to the real point that whichever defenders were waiting for their delivery of ammo, did not get it as the mules ran away and were assegied on the trail.
Keep posting , between you and Gary we will eventually move closer to some good stuff.

regards

barry

Sprinbok

Yeah, if there was more Scotch whiskey, the battle was won without ammunition ... :lol:

Poor logistics ...

Cheers

Pascal

I think the companies have been supplied only once each in cartridge with mules, this having been organized by an officer of the headquarters.

In terms of scotch car or of special infantrymen equipment(old post of Neil)to carry infantry cartridges, I've never heard of this for isandhlwana, are there any testimonies of survivors?

Cheers

Pascal

As regards the Colonials they only had around 50 or 70 rounds on them.

It always confuses me how they fourght in the Donga and then dived from there horses and fourght

Till the afternoon was well spent with Col. Durnford.






Cheers

Featurig a last stand that may have taken place within the camp,,,,,,,,,,,The1stLt.

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Barry
You said "keep posting between Springbok, Gary and yourself" You forgot to mention Mr Whybra!!

Warrior
You are quite right.

There could possibly a touch of tension there.

Regards

Julian Whybra wrote:

Mr Greaves
Your numbers are wrong.
87 Europeans and 90 Africans survived Isandhlwana, possibly another 4 Europeans.
Of these 19 officers survived.

Hi Julain

Didn't most of the NNH survive ?



Cheers

Hi Springbok .
A reply to your quoted sources regarding S- Dorrien , wasnt he told '' to stop Taking '' that ammo or words to that effect .
How many others were told the same thing and ran off to somewhere else to try and get some rounds ??.
cheers 90th.

90th wrote:

Hi Springbok .
A reply to your quoted sources regarding S- Dorrien , wasnt he told '' to stop Taking '' that ammo or words to that effect .
How many others were told the same thing and ran off to somewhere else to try and get some rounds ??.
cheers 90th.

Thats becasuse he was breaking into Lord C ammo wagon that had strict orders to be sent off at a moments notice.

Read his letter, looks like he got the ammo anyway.




Cheers

Hi DB.
Correct . Well why was he not getting the ammo from where he should have being doing so ?.
cheers 90th.

He delivered Crealcoks orders to Durnford, had breakfast at RD then rode back to Isandlwana.

He was probebly somewhere in the camp when he saw the Zulus coming, so he went to the nearest ammo wagon.

He wouldn't have known it was reserved for Lord C




Cheers

Hi DB.
Agreed , it makes sense .
cheers 90th.

Hi all

DB14

With two bandoliers, white Natal colonial volunteers cavalrymen wear 100 rounds on them ...

With one bandolier, the blackcolonial cavalrymen and the IMI wear 50 cartridges on them ...

Cheers

Pascal

Springbok#1
“Hamilton Brown identified Pulleines' body whilst riding back from inspecting his demolished tent area. He doesnt say where, merely that he was racing to join the departing column. I havent as yet found any mention that it was in the tent area.”
He was searching his own NNC camp area. He found the body on the route back to the wagon track, presumably but not certainly, in the camp.

“I do realise that my placing of Pullein with that group is hypothetical, but I cant see him being killed of down on the front line, no matter what Mike Snook says. Being the most senior officer Im sure he would have rallied troops around him so conjecturally its highly possible that he could have got back to the saddle. “
Conjecturally true.

Springbok#2
“A niggle has allways annoyed me about the story of 1st battalion runners being refused ammo by Bloomfiels ( 2/24)
The 2/24th ammunition wagons where behind the 2/24th tents to the south of the road adjacent to the guard tent. The 1/24 ammunition wagons where behind 2/24th tents pretty central on the eastern face of the mountain. With the fighting taking place primarily on the end closest to the 1/24th why would the runners elect to run half way across the battlefield to get to the 2/24th. Surely QM Pullens wagons, their own, would have been the target.
And yet both Essex and Smith Dorean were at Bloomfields wagons?”
Yes, indeed, more apocrypha. Essex and S-D took ammunition from Bloomfield (2/24th) to Cavaye and Mostyn’s coys. (1/24th).

90th
“Julian you say '' At the time the mules were seen running about the camp , the perimeter had gone , there was no firing line '' can you tell me the source of this information ? . As I cant seem to find it .”
The source is Pte Williams. He describes in order, first the NNC on the left front falling back to the camp and the Zulus entering the camp from the right, then he describes the outflanking of E coy, the firing continuing very heavy, the rest of the 24th firing into the Zulus just 100-150 yards to their front, then he describes the encirclement, left and right of the camp with just a small opening to the left of the track remaining through which to escape, then he says that the men in camp were trying to take ammo to the 24th but the greater part never got there, “as I saw horses and mules with ammo on their backs galloping about Camp a short time afterwards”. After this Glyn’s tents are struck, Glyn’s horses taken to the rear, Williams gets a resupply of ammo and fires off 29 rounds, sees Melvill and Coghill escaping, and is told by the latter to run for it.

“Not sure how you can suggest '' Saying that mules were running about at that stage of the battle however does NOT indicate that the line had not been replenished with ammunition when the line was intact , in fact , it indicates that an ammunition supply had been well and truly up and running ''. In my opinion by all appearances yes , but if the ammo laden mules were in the camp so was the ammunition ! , it wasnt at the front .”
The ammunition which had already been taken to the line was AT THE LINE, the bulk of the ammo which was still in the waggons in camp was still IN THE WAGGONS, the ammo which was tied to mules and in carts and about to be taken out to the lines was STILL TIED TO THE MULES AND EN ROUTE when the perimeter fell. It’s self-evident, isn’t it?

“I may be wrong ! . But I cant prove my theory and cant see how you can prove yours to 100 % accuracy !”
Instead of having a theory and looking for points to back it up, try first reading all the accounts which mention ammunition supply and all the Zulu accounts of the attack on the firing line and then draw your conclusion.

“As for the 100 rounds or 70 rounds ? . I've never heard of 100 rounds being issued , do we know for sure how many were issued ?. Sorry I dont , if you do , can you name your source ?”
Infantry on active service normally carried 70 rounds unless instructed to carry an extra 30 in an emergency, e.g. the relief of Centane Feb 1878. To quote from the Field Forces Regulations of Nov 1878: “the extra thirty rounds should be carried whenever…there appears any likelihood of troops becoming hotly engaged”. There is no reason to believe that the 24th had less than 70 rounds. It is known that both the officer in command (Degacher – who had been on the relief of Centane) and the adjutant (Melvill) took the Zulu threat seriously – it is perfectly reasonable to suggest the men had the full 100 rounds.

“So I'm not ignoring it , just havent heard of it before from memory . In regard to point ( 3 ) I agree primary sources are missing , but from both sides of the fence.”
I don’t recall not having given a primary source when asked. If I have, apologies, please ask for it.



Barry
“If the mules did not get through but were found by Trooper Clarke some 10 days later, dead on the Fugitives trail but with their loads intact, who did not get their ammo supplied?”
As I’ve shown, a remark taken out of context can lead in some very silly directions.

“Unrealistic speculation seems to pervade this subject..”
How true.

Springbok#3
“The original premise of this string was that: 'A lack of ammunition/shortage of ammunition caused the collapse'.
I hesitate to speak for Julian, but my counter point has been that statement/statements was not based on any source material. The arguments have been quotations from 3rd sources ( Holts), and your own structured to say that there was ammo getting through but probably not enough ( thats how Ive read it, but quite happy to be corrected).”
But you are speaking for me and echoing exactly what I’ve ben saying. Thank you!

“In a nutshell Ive premised that it would have been impossible for the companies to move the distance they did without sufficient ammo. Ive also tried to show where they could have replenished themselves..
in counter arguing that the wagons could not have been used ive tried to show that they could indeed, without impediment.”
Absolutely.

“Julians arguments have been directed more at source materialthat indicates a supple system was in place, and correcting miss quoted statements.”
Yes.

“Without wishing in any way to interfere in the counter that is bound to come from Julian, your statement on "if the ammo laden mules were still in the camp, so was the ammo", would only hold true if we were talking of a limited amount of boxes, ie: there were only 4 boxes and the mules were seen running with 4 boxes.
The converse is however more to the point. There were a lot of boxes of ammo so potentially the mules could have delivered a lot of them before they were witnessed running around. Dont think Ive made the point very well, hope it comes across.”
Very well made. It comes across.

“Statements made by the suvivors confirm that ammo was getting to the front ( Read letted Smith Dorean to his father, Essex Statement that "he followed (SD) with a mule cart". Now reading that statement carefully it says: In loadind the latter ( his mule cart ) I helped the quarter master of the 2nb Battalion ( Bloomfield) to place boxes in a cart and while doing so the poor fellow was shot dead."
Surely that statement indicates that his Mule Cart was full and he was ready to follow Smith Dorean to the line but stayed to help load another mule cart.”
Where there was one…..

“That surely should convince anyone that there was more than one cart in operation?”
One would have thought so. Also, of course, the army would not have bought just ONE cart. There was not a global financial crisis at the time.

“By Ian Knight: " the army had bought up a number of locally made mule drawn scotch carts instead. each could easily carry 30 boxes." So from source its established there were carts available, from source its established they were being used.”
Absolutely. But will anyone listen?

“Comment was made at some point about panic and systems not being in place. Consider this, testimony from Private Wilson was that at the onset stretcher bearers took up position behind the companies ready to carry back to the field hospital. Again a pointer that systems were in place.”
Indeed.

“As a counter to the oft expressed argument that the companies retreated because they were out of ammo: Malinda, " a company of soldiers was with us and on nearing the tents knelt down and commenced firng at the enemy. Below them some distance to the west was another company or more of soldiers also kneeling and firing."
So again source proof that even after leaving the front line the companies still had sufficient ammo.
Barker of the Carbineers: after retiring from the donga, " I went down the hill to our immediate front ( along the line of the road to the donga) and joined Hawkins Swift two Tarbotons and Edwards and commenced firing........after about a dozen shots I noticed or rather heard a rush from behind ( zulus entering the camp)........."
Two more sources that confirm they had sufficient ammo.
There are a lot more accounts from both sides that talk of the' intense firing'.”
There are.

“All in all really any suggestion ( and there is no first hand source ) that theres was not sufficient ammo is really discredited. ( No thanks really to TWOTS)”
Sounds of clapping from afar.

Springbok#4
“If a couple of mules were found on the trail it proves what? Only that two mules ran that way is all. It does not prove in any way that those were the only source of getting ammo to the front, it does not prove that they were the only mules, it does not prove that the load was the only load that they carried that day. My previous post is not based on any unfounded speculation but is rather supported by documented first hand source material.[i][b]”
More clapping.

“Im happy that these points are debated, but for any level of credibility please give source references rather than a blanket denial based on theory.”
Thunderous applause.

90th
“I have mentioned I havent any primary sources to quote because they were all killed . I'm merely attempting to '' put it out there ''
So your ‘putting it out there’ is based on what? A crystal ball?

“that this may have ocurred .I agree they must have had sufficient to effect the withdrawl to a certain degree as this took place .”
An admission.

“Although what was the rate of fire during the withdrawl ? , slow and orderley one would presume , wouldnt this be , in a way a case of attempting to husband the rounds they had on their person ?”
Enough to keep the Zulus 100-150 yards away according to Williams.

“Hate to say it but how many wagons / carts are we talking about ? . No-one knows !”
One per company at least to replace the regulation ones.

“If the wagons were fully utilized why did they see the necessity for individuals to be '' Carrying Ammunition to the front '' as this can only be done with arms or hands it isnt a large amount going forward.”
Presumably taking it to the NNC(see Malindi/Higginson), to Dyer’s composite coy, to the IMI…arms/hands, yes, but canvas pouches and improvised slings more likely.

“How many boxes per mule ? . Can you name a source which gives us a definitive answer ?”
A mule is the source. It has two sides. Two boxes.

“The converse doesnt add up , because as I've mentioned why are individuals carrying ammunition to the front if all the carts and mules have done their required tasks ?. This is the point I'm endevouring to put forward .”
Well, bearing in mind the time Williams saw men ‘carrying ammunition to the front’, i.e. the collapse of the perimeter and late in the day, it may be that the carts were captured/overturned/left behind as the 24th withdrew.

“Your statement regarding S-Dorrien helping Bloomfield load the cart Indicates it was full , He doesnt say it was full does he ? . If so can you tell where I can find that statement.”
In all probability it wasn’t full so that movement wasn’t impeded.

“As you say sources indicate Carts were there but how many ? . If I remember correctly there was not as many Carts or wagons used in the invasion that were deemed to be neccessary , happy to be corrected . So therfore how many made it to the firing line ? . And as a matter of conjecture stayed there without bolting due to the noise etc , as I'm sure the civilian owned animals would never had heard that much noise ever in their working life . It's also been mentioned that many of these carts were seconded to the invasion force from the public of Natal , so therefore this point may have some credence ! . I'm sure I've never mentioned the withdrawl was due to complete Ammo failure , but I'm thinking it didnt help !. Sufficient and running low , what is the differance ? . Sufficient say 25 -35 ? , after 20 mins is it possible it's as low as 15 -25 ? . How long would it have taken to effect the withdrawl ? . If I was on the front line and had anything less than 50 !!!! before the withdrawl I'd certainly think I was beginning to run low or become short.”
This is the problem. You are ‘putting it out there’ without any sources/evidence. At the same time you’re demanding sources/evidence to prove that what you are putting out is untrue. That’s unfair and illogical. The evidence that is available points to re-supply of the line by various means, to no-one running out on the line, to Zulus being fired at heavily (they would know!) from the line. There is no evidence to counter this.

Springbok#5
“And without a shadow of doubt they did run out.............. thats why the Zulu won. However I refer back to the original point..........The battle was lost because the troops on the firing line ran out of ammo. Thats the point, and it was made, that I contest.”
Ditto.

Barry
“Correct and apologies, our lines did cross and the "speculation" bit was not directed at what was said about mules running around the camp.I believe that actually happened. Further it is corrobarated by Tpr Clarke finding two dead pack mules on the Fugitives trail still intact with their loads. My actual point is that was much was made of possible delivery methods, scotch/mule carts or wagons, but little or no cognisance given to the fact the colonials used pack mules. Which brings me to the real point that whichever defenders were waiting for their delivery of ammo, did not get it as the mules ran away and were assegied on the trail.”
Oh, so that’s your REAL point!
Please see above postings about context and read.


Warrior3/springbok#6
There is no tension – at least not on my part. There is frustration with the flawed ahistorical methodology. It is full of holes, like the Titanic, and just as doomed.

90th
“A reply to your quoted sources regarding S- Dorrien , wasnt he told '' to stop Taking '' that ammo or words to that effect .How many others were told the same thing and ran off to somewhere else to try and get some rounds ??.”
S-D was new to the camp. The 24th men would know where they were supposed to go. The S-D ‘affair’ is explained in Jackson.

Drummer boy
You have England’s Sons, it’s in there.

Another full, erudite and fascinating post by Julian on this topic, which i have been following with interest.
I don't know enough to comment usefully, hence I have been staying out of it.
Butting in late, apologies for that, but to ask a fundamental question, why did iSandhlwana fall and RD survive?
What were the key factors, given that the ratio of the number of defenders : Zulu warriors was not dissimilar?
Could ammunition shortage have been a factor (or THE major factor) in RD's survuval and Isandlwana's loss?

The Zulu's were attacking uphill,

They couldn't send in all 4,000 warrirs at once

There were barricdes to stop the rush

The perimeter to defend was small[

It couldn't be outflanked



Cheers

and Zulu tactics.

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

The Zulu's were attacking uphill,

They couldn't send in all 4,000 warrirs at once

There were barricdes to stop the rush

The perimeter to defend was small[

It couldn't be outflanked



Cheers

So the fact that at iSandlwana, the Zulus were able to:

i. rush in with 20,000 warriors at once
ii. exploit the fact that there were no barricades
iii. outflank the exposed lines of men

were the major factors in the camp's defeat.
so, how much of a factor was the efficiency of the ammo supply?

To quote Pascal:
Pas du tout!

And an " Assegai" with some guts behind it.

No question!

Please forgive the injection of a little light humour into this erudite thread.

I am reading "Campaigning in South Africa 1879" by Captain Wlilliam Montague 94th Regiment published in 1880 (British Library Historical Collection for IPad - 30,000 titles for peanuts ! - amazing). Could not resist the following.

The Regiment is in Aldershot and has just heard it is going to South Africa - local tailors have descended on the officers mess to sell tropical kit.

"On delivering my own garments, I suggested, by way of a joke, that I supposed it would do if I paid him on my return. Why Sir, was his reply, when you are going out it is always ready money, - a pleasant hint which reminds me of the view of Isandlwana taken by my bootmaker, a well to do gentleman in the West End, who shook his head over the news pathetically as he said, "Sad business sir - very sad: nothing like it in England since I can remember. We lost three customers to it sir ! "

Wonderful

Steve

Was there really any last stands. Or are we speculating because so many of the dead were found together in certain areas in and around the Battlefield. We have evidence that men and officers left the Battlefield when they saw all war lost. Most of them being on horseback. After reading this indepth discussion I'm drawn to the conclusion that there was mass panic and theses last stands were in-fact groups of men trying the hardest to get away from the carnage. It's human instinct to run as a pack when being pursued safety in numbers hoping the bloke next to you will get caught first giving you a bit more time to escape. The fact that men from other regiments were found among the dead of other regiment only proves that men were joining with other groups regardless of who they were. With regards to Younghusband's last stand, it would have been if they had died where they held their ground but they didn't they panic and ran down only in the hope they could break through and get away to safety.

LH

If they paniced, then how did they withdrawl over 800 yards to the camp with 15,000 Zulus after them ??

They died in comapny rally squares.



Cheers

littlehand wrote:

With regards to Younghusband's last stand, it would have been if they had died where they held their ground but they didn't they panic and ran down only in the hope they could break through and get away to safety.

60 bodies and 3 officers were found at the sight of the last stand, only a the few survivors charged down.

70 men of the 24th were found in the Saddle

68 behind the 1/24th tents, Captain Wardle and Lt Dyer being recognized

50 in the 2/24th tents

60 under the Southern crags of Isandlwana, Younghusband being recognized

40 down the fugitives drift, Lt Anstey being recogized

20 men including Colour-Sergant Wolfe on the firing line

Most of G company near the little Donga's

20 or so redcoats fell around Col. Durnford

Then make allowances for the 30 or 40 shot down during the retreat and those
20 or so that died at the rear of Anstey's running fight.




Cheers

Hi Julian.
Just a couple of points , you say Crystal Ball , I say objectiveness . No mention in any survivor accounts that Canvas Bags or improvised slings carried ammunition to the front . As for the carts being tipped over etc , You posted previously that the officers on the firing line wouldnt leave the carts or ammunition at the firing line ,
As I posted in an earlier debate if the troops were trying to bring the carts back to the camp and help the mules who may have fallen as you put it , it would certainly take a few rifles out of firing line , agreed ? .As for the 100 rds theory , no-one thought the camp was to be attacked did they ? . There isnt any mention that the extra 30 were issued , by any of the survivors reports , also no mention from the the survivors that Degcher and / or Melvill thought an attack would take place . I'm fairly certain they couldnt take it upon themselves to distribute the extra 30 rds could they ? .I cant
argue with your sources but I do remain dubious regarding the whole aspect of re - supply .
cheers 90th. :Salute.

PS. I dont wish to cause any friction between all of us involved in this , as they say healthy debate . Julian I hope you dont take this debate personally .

And point being, that the officers you mention we're in-commard. It's doesn't say they organised the last stand they were running with the rest, those that had no where to run had no choice but to died. The British soldier was a killing machine with a rifle, when individuals ammunition ran out it was then down to hand to hand. Which the Zulus were at better at.

littlehand wrote:

And point being, that the officers you mention we're in-commard. It's doesn't say they organised the last stand they were running with the rest, those that had no where to run had no choice but to died. The British soldier was a killing machine with a rifle, when individuals ammunition ran out it was then down to hand to hand. Which the Zulus were at better at.

It wouldn't have been organised, the men vollyed there way back to camp, and fourght and died till the last.

Look at the figures i posted, they look like the men died in company rally squares, lead by the officers in the centre.

littlehand wrote:

It's doesn't say they organised the last stand they were running with the rest,t.

Who was running

I would say just everyone that could, including the British.

littlehand wrote:

I would say just everyone that could, including the British.

Then how did they manage to get back to camp ??