Isandlwana, Last Stands

Any eye-witness accounts on this Springbok...

Yes there is and they have all be quoted ad nauseum.
But given the simple fact that some 60 bodies were found clustered around Durnford, a lot of them being imperial troops, substantiates it. Those troops could not cross that battlefield in under 30 minutes fighting of the chest as they went. Therefore ipso facto had to have held of the left wing for that period baring in mind that the withdrawl from the donga was one of the catalysts for the collapse of the firing line.
Time line extract:
1. Durnford abandons donga.
2. Retreats towards the camp.
3. Carbineers establish a second firing line
4. Durnford rides of to try and see Pulleine ( Chats to Gardner on the way)
5. Left horn moves towards 1/24 camp
6. Line collapses and withdrawl begins
7. Durnford returns to the 1/24 camp and re joins the carbineers
8. Imperial troops join Durnford.
9. The saddle is kept open long enough for the fugitives to escape.

Fit all that into a time scale and then figure out how they could have done it without ammunition. Take into account that the stand was above the tent line where the 1/24 wagons where parked, plus of course the regimental ammo reserve.

Cheers

Hi All,
On a point of historical correctness, taken from Holt's " the Mounted Police of Natal", p66;
quote
" around him (Durnford) lay (dead) 14 carbineers and 21 of the police" unquote . There is no mention of volunteeers succumbing there, however on page 64 this is said,
" as the final rush came , Colonel Durnford clearly saw that death was inevitable for nearly everyone , and shouted " Get away as best you can" to the Police and Volunteers surrounding him , but very few heard him or obeyed him.
So, it would appear that any Volunteers who were with him there escaped with their lives.
What comes out of all of this is that Colonel Durnford was desperately holding the enemy off, perhaps with his sabre and revolver ,.....so that others lives may be saved. This point is corroborated in Mehlogazulu's report which confirmed that revolvers and knives( messe), meaning bayonets and swords of course, were being used by the defending Colonials in their last stand. He went on to say that the ammunition bandoliers of this group of enemy fatalities were all empty.
Prior to this when Dartnell rode out with the NMP and the Natal Crabineers contingent on his Patrol , he left 1/3 of his NMP force at Isandlwana to help defend the camp. 30 of these men were mounted infantry, one, Tpr Pleydell was the NMP watercart driver and Tpr Parsons was in hospital having injured his knee when thrown from his horse the previous day.
The only survivors of this 32 man NMP force were : L/c Eaton, Tptr Stevens, Tprs Doig, Shannon, Collier, Dorehill, Hayes, Kincade and Sparks

regards

barry

The ammuntion in the waggons you mention, we're not the type of rounds Durnford men could use. They were for the 24th regiments who were equipped with MH rifles.

And was it not Garner who rode out to Durnford, nt the other way round.

Ray
Im pretty sure that the ammunition types etc ( not my field) were cleared up by Neil.
Gardner saw the withdrawl and rode across, he met Durnford. Read into that what you will. The point being its part of the time frame.
The second point being that nobody so far has come up with an explanation as to how they could have held of the left horn for some considerable time with no ammo !

Barry
Most certainly knives sticks stones could and would have been used at the end, but not for an extended period.
From Major Black: "The bodies lay thickess on the 1/24th camp; a determined stand had evidently been made behind the officers tents......seventy dead lay here.
Near at hand were found the bodies of Col Durnford and Lt Scott and othe Carabineers, and men of the NMP, showing that here a lso our men had gathered and fought as recognised body. This was evidently a centre of resistance as bodies of men of ALL arms were found converged."

Cheers

I'm guessing the men that were in front of the camp, possibly laid down enough covering fire to allow the men to cross, the Zulus themselves would have been exhausted.

Hi Ray
The area in question is on the right of the camp, the main line to the left and left front wouldnt be possible for Pope to cover that area, hence the reason for him being taken in the flank. It was pretty much in the begginingof the attack so exhaustion wouldnt have been an issue. Bottom line really is that that group had run out of ammo in the donga yet still managed to fight of 2-3000 zulus for around 30 minutes, they had to have had a re supply and as the area they regrouped was adjacent to the 1/24th wagons that becomes the obvious choice.

Cheers

Is it possible that they had a re-supply of weapons, thus accommodating the ammuntion from the waggons.

impi
Its allways possible, there is however a pretty large but, there would have had to be a considerable amount and I honestly cant remember any references to that sort of quantity. As this incident would have occured before the line was breached there would not have been a significant amount of imperial weaponry available either.I think still the safe bet is a re supply. Its the only explanation Ive ever been able to come up with.
Mainwaring incidentally lists Durnfords body found with 6 officers and around 160 men, mostly 24th.
Brickhills statement says that he hunted round the camp trying to find a weapon, he did bump into his friend Quarter Master Pullen, the man who would have controlled weapons, so he is positioned in the place that Durnfords men were aiming for.
He, Pullen, was trying to stem any retreat and arrange a stand so again that would place him in the ideal position to get ammunition.Brickhills last sighting of his tent mate was of him heading towards the koppie leading a band of men towards the left horn and I cant really see him leading men into an attack with no ammo.
In support of Julians comments on Shepstone keeping the right horn at bay is also a quote from Brickhill about the Basutos who: "had a narrow escape on the ridge ( Tahelane ridge? ) bursting past the Generals tent ( en route from North of iSandlwana to the saddle by the shortest possible route?) ) and kept up their fire from the rocks under iSandlwana.
Hope that explains my point

Cheers
Cheers

But had those men in the Compaines heading towards Durnford completely run out of ammuntion, or we're they firing as they went. Keep the Zulus at bay long enough for them to complete the journey.

24th
No I dont believe they had run out of ammo, very very low yes.
Then, to speculate, if they had got to Durnford ( and we know they did because their bodies were found there ) and Durnford was at or near the ammo wagons ( again we know he was by the position of his body in relation to the officers tents, its mentioned by Black) again the officers tents were adjacent to the regimental wagons. The man in charge of the ammo was in the same area. The initial force Carbineers NMR etc had been fighting of the left horn long enough for that band of imperial soldiers to get across the battlefield, so they had ammo.
Isnt it then feasable that the soldiers got a re supply from the same source ?
If we can remotly accept that theory then the other bits and pieces start to fit, eg: the various zulu statements on the blistering firepower and the ability of portion of the troops to still fight their way to the stream. Looking at the diposition of the grave areas, that huge grouping around Durnford, 160 odd men, the equally large group on the ridge of the saddle and the large number of cairns running down to the Manzimyama. The fight couldnt be sustained because of the over whelming forces oposing them, and highly possibly seperating them from th ammo supply.
The main point I make however is still the Durnford group had to have been resupplied. There is no proof, there are n o suvivors reports there is no personal observation, just a touch of Sherlock type aproach in adding 1 and 1 to get 2. And isnt that what most of history is about?

Cheers

Mitford's observations, should be taken into consideration. Especially when he talks about the cartridges.

"I particularly noticed that none of these unexploded cases were to be found on the outskirts of the field, all there having been fired off not until one got upon the site of the actual camp did they become plentiful, pointing, if anything, to the fact that the fight in camp was hand to hand, our men being rushed before they had time to fire many shots, whereas those forming the outer lines of defence would have had plenty. And the above circumstance seems to make against the idea that there was any faikire of ammunition."

Hi Ray
That could go either way, it could offer proof as Mitford says that ammo within the camp was plentiful. There is the alternate view that the zulus smashed open the cases for their own use and spilt onto the ground. There was a notation some where ( cant remember where) that cartridge cases unfired where found with the round removed. This so the zulu could use the gunpowder in their older guns.

Cheers

Quote :

There was a notation some where ( cant remember where) that cartridge cases unfired where found with the round removed. This so the zulu could use the gunpowder in their older guns.

Yes that's from the same book, he discovered bullet heads, with the impressions of teeth marks, the Zulu's torn the heads off to get at the powder using their teeth.

We know the Ammuntion was in the camp area, so it would have been plentifull. He then says.

Quote :

"whereas those forming the outer lines of defence would have had plenty"

Which would suggest those soldiers had more than their allocated issue. Which then suggests ammunition was being distrubtuted to the outer Compaines.

I do recall someone saying that every man was ordered to the front. Not sure what time that would have happened, but I can only imagine, there was only few left in the camp, Grooms ect, when the line broke those rushing back to the camp, either for ammuntion or to escape were closely chased by the on coming Zulus. Which fits in with Mitford saying "

Quote :

if anything, to the fact that the fight in camp was hand to hand, our men being rushed before they had time to fire many shots"

Was the argument not put forward by 90th, that the ammuntion inquestion could have got to where in was found by Mitford in numberous ways, one being the Zulus themselves. Taking ammo boxes from the camp to break open.

Dave unlikely. According to the account posted by Ray63. Used rounds were found outside the camp, and live rounds inside. Unless someone sorted out the used from the live and dumped them on the firing lines.

Dave
I would agree with 90th. Its highly likely that ammunition could have been carried around the battlefield by the zulus after wards. Shoe brushes were found on the ridge so yep highly possible.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Dave
I would agree with 90th. Its highly likely that ammunition could have been carried around the battlefield by the zulus after wards. Shoe brushes were found on the ridge so yep highly possible.

Cheers

hi some very interesting points....perhaps if the colours had been unfolded..perhaps around ammunition waggan...a larger stand could of been made...why was the colours not used to rally troops

Yes especially since it's what he used normally !

Dave wrote:

Was the argument not put forward by 90th, that the ammuntion inquestion could have got to where in was found by Mitford in numberous ways, one being the Zulus themselves. Taking ammo boxes from the camp to break open.

test firing of the Martini henry apparently show that in quick repeated firing the the breach go that hot that cartridges got jammed in the breach..where upon there had to be extracted using baynet or some other implement to hand. durnford is known o have used his one good hand to extract these cartridge cases for his troops,as his one good hand was that much more stronger then normal,..if all this is true...this would of certainly helped the zulu come to close quarter action...

And they were also helped by a herd of cattle  

Master Pullen (Quarter-Master
Has Master Pullen, been missed off the list of those who received recognition for their actions at Isandlwana like Younghusband. He was known to have rallied some men and made a last stand. But nothing is really mentioned about this. It could have been him and his men who were the last to fall, possibly one of them made it to the cave where the last of the 24th supposedly died?

Chard
I think the only mention of Pullen is by Brickhill, Mike Snook credits him with helping to organise the stand with Durnford. I cant of hand pin point any other mention, do you have something?

Cheers

only a mention of Pullen ! Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !

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Positions (E) & (F) Can anyone point out the positions on the map.

All conjecture LH but, they were part of the firing line facing to the North. Against the mountain was Younghusband, then probably Shepstone then E and F.
After the battle, at the position of the present memorial on the saddle I think one or two identifications were made in that area.

Cheers

F ) Marker. Who would that have been Younghusband or Shepstone.

Sorry LH thought you were refering to E and F companies.
On the map E is at Durnfords Donga, bottom right of your map. F is slightly to the right of the word Line ( as in Defensive Line ) its also marked as C co 1/24

Cheers

Well I'm stuffed if I can find E or F and I've been using a magnifying glass !    
Cheers 90th  

90th
Firstly its the Narrative map.
There is a dog leg showing the companies in position. Where it bends to come down the page there is the Guns then 1/24th the F is right gainst the 1/24.
Bottom right is the position of Durnford, the E is written between the donga and the shaded representation of the troop.

Cheers

Here is E

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and here is F

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Steve

Hi Steve.
Thanks for blowing those up , I must be going blind ! . I couldnt bloody well see them even with a magnifying glass !  
Cheers 90th  

Your welcome 90th. This is from an original  copy of the Narrative held in Aldershot Public Library - it is ex Sandhurst, so makes you wonder what great military minds have pondered over the text in the intervening years !

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Steve

rusteze. Thank you!!!!

Gent's I'm working late tonight, can anyone tell me if Black mentions theses locations in his report. Ref: His visit to the Battlefield. Mainly looking at (F) Location!

LH. Why the interest in ( F ) location.

I fairly sure Black report states that loads of empty cartridges were found in one place where the 24th bodies were. Or along those lines?

LH
On the Mainwaring map November 79.
Point H ( F on the Narrative Map) 'Strewn with empty shell cases.'

Cheers

Springbok, do we know how many men would have been a F location. And did they at any point full bak from that position.

LH
Its on the left of the rocky ridge, the narrative map merely says co(mpany) 1/24. Lower down on the ridge is the position CS Wolff was found. I would think it was H company with G company lower down the ridge to the south. H was under Wardell, Jackson puts Dyer there as well, alongside/in front was Lonsdales men. So in terms of a guestimate, H company at aprox 80 men, Lonsdales 9 company 1/3NNC aprox 130 any Dyers 60. So potentially there could have been 170 men in that vicinity. We also know from accounts that Lonsdales men were there close to the end ( Malindis statements )
They had to have fallen back due to the absence of a significant amount of graves there. We do know that CS Wolffs body with twenty of his men were found there. Wardell and Dyer were found with Durnford below Blacks Koppie with 150 men, mostly 24th troops.
Hope that helps

Approx 170 men X 70 rounds per man = 11,900 rounds.

It's absolutely mind boggling just how much ammuntion was available. 
When they say " Old Steady Shots" do they mean how slowly they fired.

Littlehand .
It's pure speculation , but there probably wasnt as you worked out 11, 900 rounds expended in that area , due to the fact there weren't any significant graves in that area , which means many had fallen back and must've had rounds with them during their withdrawl to where they finished up , then running out of Ammo , were butchered where they stood .

CTSG .
'' Old Steady Shots '' certainly implies that they were experienced ( Which we know many of them were ) , and more than likely didnt fire their ammo off at an absurd rate . To have fallen back as far as they did they obviously used their ammo wisely one would think .
90th

I'm assuming LH is referring to the empty cartridges found among the boulders shown on the map he posted under location (f) Not graves!

Possibly the men did fall back, but did they have enough ammo to do so?

90th
We know from Malindi that he was resuplying his men, sit possible that the figu[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]res are close.
The Rocky Ridge reffered to.
Cheers

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Same area looking down onto the plain

Cheers

Springy. Those boulders in the last photo, is that where the cartridges were found, In great quantities.

CTSG
Yep thats the area.
Cheers

Hi CTSG .
I'm well aware littlehand is referring to cartridges not graves , if you read my post again you may understand .
Or simpler , if there were 11,900 empty cartridges in the area one would think there would be many bodies as well , due to the fact the 170 would've expended their 70 rounds = 11,900 , basically meaning the troops had no ammo left to facilitate their withdrawal and would.ve been butchered on that spot ! , do you understand my post now ? .  
90th  

Hi Springy .
I doubt very much that there were anything like 11,900 cartridges in that area , we know from other Battles like Khambula , Gingindlovhu & Ulundi that the rates of fire were not quick , they were called the old steady shots because they didnt fire off rounds quickly , many of them were experienced troops . I doubt those 170 were in the same area long enough to have fired of the said rounds , going by expenditure from the other battles those 170 men would needed to have been in that same spot firing away for 10 hours or so ! , as you can see the time required to exhaust those rounds didnt happen , wasnt it over in 2 hrs or less ? . From memory there were only 6 -8 per hour fired at the other battles , Isandlwana by most reports was over fairly quickly , so allowing for that those 170 men wouldnt have fired off 70 rounds before withdawing , the time doesnt stack up .
Cheers 90th  

I was pointing out the amount of rounds that was available! I didn't mean that amount of cartridges were found there. We know they fell back. I was looking along the lines of we're they resupplied? Possibly didn't need to be. Between them they had more that enough to fall back?