Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

Thanks for that Jim. At present, I'm looking for Browne's accouns. I'm sure he mentions him be there.

Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14

LH,

I take you are referring to George Hamilton Browne, if so, not a mention in his 'Lost Legionary in South Africa' of Schiess.

'Jimu

Ian Knights take on the painting.
The shouting man is Schiess, to his left Dalton lies wounded, assuming thats correct then the man on the mealie bags stabbing with the rifle could very well be Harry Lugg ( the woolen cap fits)

Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 45

Bring the photo to this page

littlehand wrote:: [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

So who's

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Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 45

Schiess would have been in uniform.?????

"Christian Ferdinand Schiess VC (7 April 1856[1] – 14 December 1884) was a Swiss recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest and most prestigious award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces. He died in poverty at just 28.

He was 22 years old, and a corporal in the Natal Native Contingent, South African Forces during the Zulu War. On 22 January 1879, at Rorke's Drift, Natal, Corporal Schiess, in spite of having been wounded in the foot a few days previously, displayed great gallantry when the garrison had retired to the inner line of defence and the Zulus had occupied the wall of mealie bags which had been abandoned. He crept along the wall in order to dislodge one of the enemy and succeeded in killing him and two others before returning to the inner defences.

Schiess was the first man serving with South African Forces under British Command to receive the VC.
After the volunteer forces were disbanded, he failed to find work, even from British authorities. In 1884, he was found on the streets of Cape Town suffering from exposure and malnutrition. The Royal Navy found him, gave him food, and offered him a passage to England on board the Serapis. He accepted, but became ill during the voyage and died. His remains were buried at sea at approximately 13°00′S 07°24′W. It is unknown if there was a portrait of Corporal Schiess. According to some, in Lady Butler's painting of "Rorke's Drift" he is shown lying at left against the mealie bags

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Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 45

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open then click on image.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Isn't it odd? I have look on the link provided my sas1. There are a few sketches of the various defenders, but only one soldier is named “Jenkins” Plus all the notes are written on the bottom of the sketches, except “Jenkins” whose name appears on the top. In nice clear, clean, writing.
For what it’s worth, I believe “Jenkins” Name has been added recently, certainly not by Lady Butler!!!!!

Look at the titles of the images.

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And "Jenkins" didn't receive a VC

And '' Jenkins '' didnt receive a VC ! scratch

. Neither did 120 others , not sure what you mean Impi ??.
90th.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

The point I was trying to make 90th is no VC winners were named. So why would Lady Butler mentioned "Jenkins" by name..Look at the sketches,and the titles to the sketches.

impi
None of the 2/24th VC winners were available, I seem to recall they were in India, there were 7 of them.

But are you seriously suggesting that there is 'yet another' conspiracy? And if so please enlighten us as to why and by whom?

The painting is dated 1880, that's puts some in "Gibraltar" she started her research in 1879, so I would image it wat then she completed her sketches and took eyewitness accounts.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Quote :: But are you seriously suggesting that there is 'yet another' conspiracy? And if so please enlighten us as to why and by whom?

I'm not saying anything about a conspiracy. I'm saying Lady Butlers sketches are consistent, until it comes to the " Jenkins" sketch, reasons pointed out In my previous post.

impi
I am lucky enough to own some sketches by Lady Butler and after comparing the writing, not being a graphologist, Im pretty certain the writing is the same. Again bare in mind that the sketches for the painting where done over a period of time, different moods different ambience, differing captions.
Your comments about no other VC winner being named, possibly because the balance of the sketches are not there? Would that explain it?

Littlehnd
Sure but the initial sketches were done mostly in England.

Cheers

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Your Sketches, how many of them have the soldiers name apart from " Jenkins"

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Posted on behalf of forum member Martin.

impi
My sketches are unfortunatly not of RD. You miss the point, I was validating the handwriting. Therefore IF the handwriting is indeed Lady Butler and the sketch is Lady Butler on what terms would you carry forward your theory and reasoning behind your statement that the name was added later.

Posts : 75 Join date : 2010-09-06 Location : Tenterden

Hi All

Adrian Greaves and I have uncovered all sorts of info re David Jenkins.

We have had a visit made to Brecon to look at the 'ledger'/'journal' however you wish to describe it and we have now had some replies come back from South Africa as well as other enquiries in this country.

Our findings will be done up as a report and will be posted on the 1st June 2013 in both the journal of the AZWHS which will be released on that day as well as on the AZWRS site. The location on the latter site I will give nearer the time

Regards to all

David

Subject: Forgotten survivor of RD Thu May 09, 2013 11:53 am

Thanks for posting the pictures Pete, now other members will be able to have a clearer view of the men and the other details of the painting.

Lady Butler said she had sketched all of the VC winners, but I wonder if she meant that she had portayed them in the painting? as trying to find some of them is proving difficult, and I am still wondering who the chap is above Reynolds' left shoulder. He is wearing what appears to be an NNC uniform similar to the one Byrne is shown wearing (I thought Byrne was a storekeeper), but with a foreign service helmet rather than the brimmed hat with red puggaree, he also has what looks like a pistol holster on his belt, and appears to be giving orders or some sort of instructions, so could he be an officer or NCO, and who is he supposed to be I wonder?

It is a bit strange that Lady Butler should say she had drawn all the VC winners but then not portray them all in the painting, for instance where is cpl Allen?

Salute

Martin
There were a couple of other regiments represented at RD
Sgt Milner from the 3rd Buffs
Cprl Graham from the 90th Light Infantry.
Would they be possibilities?

Cheers

Mr David Payne wrote:: Hi All

Adrian Greaves and I have uncovered all sorts of info re David Jenkins.

We have had a visit made to Brecon to look at the 'ledger'/'journal' however you wish to describe it and we have now had some replies come back from South Africa as well as other enquiries in this country.

Our findings will be done up as a report and will be posted on the 1st June 2013 in both the journal of the AZWHS which will be released on that day as well as on the AZWRS site. The location on the latter site I will give nearer the time

Regards to all

David

I look forward to your report David, because it will be your and Adrian's view of the real evidence kept at the museum.
There has been too much BS about and too many people getting their knickers in a twist about the sketches, which are comparatively minor and unimportant pieces of circumstantial evidence, if we can even call them evidence.

Nice to see David Jenkins covered in volume 9.
Looks like a series well worth buying.
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And of course, my man in volume 10. Salute

tasker
In addition to being a valuable information source the proceeds of the sales accumalate for the Help for Hero's fund

Cheers

Subject: Forgotten survivor of RD Thu May 09, 2013 6:02 pm

Hi springy.

Yes, I mentioned these chaps from other regiments in my post of Monday 6th May, so you may be right there mate, he could well be one of those fellows. I also agree about the books, a great read for anyone interested in the AZW, Kris has done some brilliant research to compile these volumes, so all credit to her.

Salute

Posts : 747 Join date : 2009-10-18

As Admin, pointed out a while ago. The research on these men in Kris's books go back to there births. You can't get better research than that.. For instance did you know one of the RD defenders, won a lot of money on a lottery. A must have collection for anyone interested in this subject..

Easy to order!
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Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

Mr David Payne wrote:: Hi All

Adrian Greaves and I have uncovered all sorts of info re David Jenkins.

We have had a visit made to Brecon to look at the 'ledger'/'journal' however you wish to describe it and we have now had some replies come back from South Africa as well as other enquiries in this country.

Our findings will be done up as a report and will be posted on the 1st June 2013 in both the journal of the AZWHS which will be released on that day as well as on the AZWRS site. The location on the latter site I will give nearer the time

Regards to all

David

David thanks for this post, are you able to tell us, that the information you have shows Jenkins as being at RD. or Not.

David will it be necessary to purchase a membership to get the answer?

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Subject: Re: 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Yesterday at 3:42 am

Quote :: Impi
I am lucky enough to own some sketches by Lady Butler and after comparing the writing, not being a graphologist, Im pretty certain the writing is the same. Again bare in mind that the sketches for the painting where done over a period of time, different moods different ambience, differing captions.Your comments about no other VC winner being named, possibly because the balance of the sketches are not there? Would that explain it?

Quote :: Subject: Re: 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Today at 6:42 am
impi
My sketches are unfortunatly not of RD. You miss the point, I was validating the handwriting. Therefore IF the handwriting is indeed Lady Butler and the sketch is Lady Butler on what terms would you carry forward your theory and reasoning behind your statement that the name was added later.

Isn't this contradictory?

Agree 100 % about the Legacy series , I have them all and they are excellent reading . Kris Wheatley's work is outstanding .
I couldnt imagine researching these men as it would take weeks or days , all I'd be is frustrated !. The proceeds also go to a very
good cause . I doubt Kris Wheatley makes any money herself on these books , more than likely covers the costs and that would be it .
Kris certainly deserves a big pat on the back for her truly remarkable research Salute

. I'm sure she probably comes on here from time to time , let's face it , all those with an interest in the zulu war, would be on here, if they knew what was good for them !
Cheers 90th. Very Happy

90th
Well summed up. magic lady.
impi
I bow to your superior interlect.
David
Look forward to the results of your research results.

Cheers

Posts : 75 Join date : 2010-09-06 Location : Tenterden

Hi All

For those who are members of the AZWHS it will be part of the half yearly journal.

For those who want to see it on the AZWRS site it will be in the non subscription part - I may put it under the Rorke's Drift books for review - I will notify you all of where it is at the time.

There is no charge for this as all of the money that we send out to the RD community comes from book sales and talks.

Regards

David

Subject: Forgotten survivor of RD Fri May 10, 2013 12:56 pm

Well said 90th and springy.

Kris is a truly remarkable lady, very helpful and friendly, she deserves all the praise afforded to her for all her painstaking research into the lives of the defenders of Rorke's Drift, and in producing the 'Legacy' series of volumes she is undertaking, what a great effort, all credit to her.

Salute

to David Jenkins, and all the RD defenders and to people like Kris, who ensure their heroism will always be remembered. Salute

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Thanks David. Looking forward to results. I just have a feeling, you have him somewhere other than RD.
Perhaps back with Rainforth. Ie sent to the rear with prisioners.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Possibly, as it never was estadlished where the rear was, Jenkings could have been seen at RD. where he escorted prisioners back to Rainforths position. If we were honest, no one really knows who was there and who was where?

24th
Dont forget that Roy was in that escort party and he is documented as being at RD for the battle, and was decorated. Havent had a chance yet to look up the other members.

Cheers

24th
Wison,Payton, Desmond and Roy are all listed as being present by Chard. They were the balance of theso called prisoners escort.

Cheers

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Let's wait and see what David comes up with?

24th
I look forward to that. Its going to have to be really something to go against prime source material of Chard, Reynolds and George Smith all of whom put him at RD.

Cheers

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

springbok9 wrote:: 24th
I look forward to that. Its going to have to be really something to go against prime source material of Chard, Reynolds and George Smith all of whom put him at RD.

Cheers

"Remember that it may well have been Cantwell who compiled the list, not Chard himself, so even more room for errors to creep in, and there are plenty of those in the 'Chard' Roll"

impi
If it was just Chard I could tend to agree but both Reynolds and Smith corroborate and again Chard mentions Jenkins by name in his report. So yes all three pieces of source material would need to be argued against.
Look forward to it.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Hmmm. But they don't say " David Jenkins" they say Jenkins.

Chard specifically says David Jenkins warned him that a Zulu was about to shoot at him.
Reynolds mentions a 'Jenkins' being in a debilitated state and seriously incapacitated in hospital.
Smith names a 'Jenkins' as being seized and dragged away in the hospital.
Chard talks of a 'Jenkins' on the defences.
There was a 'Jenkins' suvived to go home so there has to be 2 Jenkins.
All original source material.
Again consider the so called escort party that was theoretically in PMB. Sgt Wilson is mentioned in many accounts as beinginvolved in the defence therefore he couldnt have been in the escort party.
Roy again was listed in the escort party, yet he won the DCM.

Chers

Chard specifically says David Jenkins warned him that a Zulu was about to shoot at him.
Reynolds mentions a 'Jenkins' being in a debilitated state and seriously incapacitated in hospital.
Smith names a 'Jenkins' as being seized and dragged away in the hospital.
Chard talks of a 'Jenkins' on the defences.
There was a 'Jenkins' suvived to go home so there has to be 2 Jenkins.
All original source material.
Again consider the so called escort party that was theoretically in PMB. Sgt Wilson is mentioned in many accounts as beinginvolved in the defence therefore he couldnt have been in the escort party.
Roy again was listed in the escort party, yet he won the DCM.

Chers

Subject: Forgotten survivor of RD Sun May 12, 2013 4:18 pm

I think the problem arises through earlier historians not properly researching the identities of the different 'Jenkins' who fought at both ISandlwana and RD. There was a Jenkins KIA at iSandlwana, there was also another Jenkins KIA at RD, but there was also yet another Jenkins who also fought at RD and survived, this person being David Jenkins, and it was this very same David Jenkins that warned Chard of the zulu about to shoot him, and therefor saved Chard's life. I can't see good researchers like Kris or Julian making the same mistakes that earlier historians made, and they both include David Jenkins as being a defender in the battle of RD.

We will have to wait and see what results David and Mr Greaves come up with in their research on the matter, it should be very interesting reading.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Quote :: but there was also yet another Jenkins who also fought at RD and survived, this person being David Jenkins, and it was this very same David Jenkins that warned Chard of the zulu about to shoot him

That's not quite cast in stone just yet!!. David may well come back, with primary sources that show David Jenkins to be else where. agree

impi
I think the only thing cast in stone about that war is that it happened, and at times I start to doubt that as well :p;:

Mr M. Cooper wrote:: I think the problem arises through earlier historians not properly researching the identities of the different 'Jenkins' who fought at both ISandlwana and RD. There was a Jenkins KIA at iSandlwana, there was also another Jenkins KIA at RD, but there was also yet another Jenkins who also fought at RD and survived, this person being David Jenkins, and it was this very same David Jenkins that warned Chard of the zulu about to shoot him, and therefor saved Chard's life. I can't see good researchers like Kris or Julian making the same mistakes that earlier historians made, and they both include David Jenkins as being a defender in the battle of RD.

We will have to wait and see what results David and Mr Greaves come up with in their research on the matter, it should be very interesting reading.

I think Martin is spot on.
There were 2 Jenkins' at RD, one fighting at the wall with Chard, the other in no condition to fight in the hospital.
And don't forget the regimental diary/ journal. This is 1ry source material, that David specifically went to the regimental museum to look at.
I look forward to David's opinion on what he has found.

Posts : 588 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

There is of course the RD bible inscribed to 295 Pte David Jenkins 1/24th donated by the ladies of City of Durban on display in the Firing Line Museum in Cardiff Castle.

Kenny
This is the bible thats been disputed by various forum members as awarded in error. Personaly cant see how, but 'Quide mae vexari' as Asterix said.

Cheers

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

I see there is still a division among us...

» Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
» PTE DAVID JENKINS vs Pte J edmund Jenkins
» No 295 David Jenkins