WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:General Lord Chelmsford: For a savage, as for a child, chastisement is sometimes a kindness. Sir Henry Bartle Frere: Let us hope, General, that this will be the final solution to the Zulu problem.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Looking for the medal to 1423 Pte. W. Gregg/Greig
British rations and morale EmptyToday at 1:46 am by sam steele

» 1409 Pte David Lloyd, Defender of Rorke's Drift
British rations and morale EmptyYesterday at 8:48 pm by Julian Whybra

» The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snake
British rations and morale EmptyThu Apr 25, 2024 9:36 am by Hobbes

» Anson A. Mayer/Maher
British rations and morale EmptyTue Apr 23, 2024 7:10 pm by cmeghen

» Late Father's Militaria Collection
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 21, 2024 2:16 pm by Julian Whybra

» A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 21, 2024 11:28 am by Eddie

» Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native Contingent
British rations and morale EmptySat Apr 20, 2024 9:26 am by SRB1965

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.
British rations and morale EmptyFri Apr 19, 2024 7:04 am by John Young

» No. 985. PTE. EDWARD READ. 2-24 Regt. (South Wales Borders).
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 14, 2024 8:12 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private Willis 2/24th Regiment his letter from South Africa
British rations and morale EmptySat Apr 13, 2024 2:49 pm by 1879graves

» Sickness among Crealock's men
British rations and morale EmptyFri Apr 12, 2024 4:52 pm by Hobbes

» Wheeler John Cantwell DCM, RD survivor of the Royal Horse Artillery
British rations and morale EmptyTue Apr 09, 2024 5:20 pm by Kenny

» Brevet Major W.R.B. Chamberlin
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 07, 2024 5:44 pm by Jager1

» Private 1941 Samuel MacClue / McClune 1/24th Regiment
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 07, 2024 3:11 pm by Dash

» Sergeant W E Warren RA - Veteran
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 07, 2024 10:50 am by DavidS

» "With 6 good riflemen"
British rations and morale EmptySat Apr 06, 2024 5:10 pm by Hobbes

» Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!
British rations and morale EmptyWed Apr 03, 2024 5:17 pm by SRB1965

» Colonialism: A Moral Legacy
British rations and morale EmptyMon Apr 01, 2024 11:16 am by Julian Whybra

» John Robert Dunn
British rations and morale EmptySat Mar 30, 2024 12:09 pm by 90th

» An early memorial to the Prince Imperial?
British rations and morale EmptySat Mar 30, 2024 10:35 am by John Young

» The Poem "A Child Hero" referring to Rupert Weatherley
British rations and morale EmptyFri Mar 29, 2024 1:07 pm by Bongo

» Writing advice
British rations and morale EmptyTue Mar 26, 2024 2:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
British rations and morale EmptyWed Mar 20, 2024 12:53 pm by Dash

» Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu Dawn
British rations and morale EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 4:52 pm by Julian Whybra

» 100,000 posts!
British rations and morale EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 2:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?
British rations and morale EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 2:34 pm by jgregory

» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets
British rations and morale EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 11:05 am by John Young

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
British rations and morale EmptyFri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am by Julian Whybra

» British rations and morale
British rations and morale EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm by Julian Whybra

» Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private Hagan
British rations and morale EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 9:16 pm by ADMIN

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
British rations and morale EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:16 pm by Julian Whybra

» William J Hoare 24th Regiment??
British rations and morale EmptySun Mar 03, 2024 7:08 pm by Dash

» Swinburn Carbine issue in AZW
British rations and morale EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
British rations and morale EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young

» Philip Price
British rations and morale EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
April 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
2930     
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Hobbes
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
John Young
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
SRB1965
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
Kenny
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
A Crockart
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
Eddie
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
Jager1
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
Dash
British rations and morale Bar_leftBritish rations and morale BarBritish rations and morale Bar_right 
New topics
» The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snake
British rations and morale EmptyWed Apr 24, 2024 3:26 pm by Hobbes

» Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native Contingent
British rations and morale EmptySat Apr 20, 2024 12:38 am by WeekendWarrior

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.
British rations and morale EmptyFri Apr 19, 2024 7:04 am by John Young

» Late Father's Militaria Collection
British rations and morale EmptyThu Apr 18, 2024 3:04 pm by A Crockart

» Anson A. Mayer/Maher
British rations and morale EmptyTue Apr 16, 2024 5:28 pm by cmeghen

» A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 14, 2024 8:01 pm by Hobbes

» Sickness among Crealock's men
British rations and morale EmptyThu Apr 11, 2024 8:51 pm by Hobbes

» Wheeler John Cantwell DCM, RD survivor of the Royal Horse Artillery
British rations and morale EmptySun Apr 07, 2024 9:36 pm by Hobbes

» John Robert Dunn
British rations and morale EmptySat Mar 30, 2024 11:47 am by SueSNB

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 British rations and morale

Go down 
2 posters
AuthorMessage
Hobbes

Hobbes


Posts : 22
Join date : 2024-01-28
Location : Baja, Hungary

British rations and morale Empty
PostSubject: British rations and morale   British rations and morale EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:24 pm

Hey there! Can someone describe what the usual daily meals of a redcoat looked like in 1879 Zululand? Did they already use tin cans?
Also, I've read that soldiers were looked down upon in the Victorian society, and the Army was seen as a last resort for lads who were quite lost in life, or those who did not contribute too much in the civilian realm of things. Something similar to what Wellington allegedly said about the "scum of the earth".
Also about those soldiers... i know it varies by individual, and it might be unanswerable, but what was their general attitude like? Were most of them educated (i think over 80-90 percent of them could write), or were they largely forced into service by the lack of other options in the civilian world? Did they care about things such as their Empire, or did they just want to survive the ordeal and go home? What was their general perception of the Zulus/other native peoples before the war? Were they closer to battle-hardened professional soldiers, or basically civilians with uniforms and weapons, as i said, effectively forced into serving in the military? I think being stationed so far away from home must have had a tremendous psychological impact.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3960
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

British rations and morale Empty
PostSubject: Re: British rations and morale   British rations and morale EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 5:53 pm

Hobbes
Blimey!  This requires a full-blown essay!  I'll try to respond a bit here and there.
You might start by reading Kipling's poem Tommy.  It was written in 1890 but applied just as much to 1879 as it did 1890.
As for Wellington's remark, it must be considered in context.
The quotation came after he saw repeated occurrences of indiscipline among his men. Wellington continually battled against looting and bad behaviour in the Peninsular War while he tried to keep Spaniards and Portuguese 'on side'. By 1812 the Spanish and Portuguese armies constituted over half his force. Note that Sir John Moore also blamed his officers during the retreat to Coruña for failing to keep their men in line and he lost the goodwill of the Spanish as a result.
The last straw for Wellington was Vitoria in 1813. Total victory was won and Wellington ordered a pursuit. Accordingly the cavalry went forwards as did the infantry, but when the latter got to the massive French baggage train, blocking the road to France, most of the soldiers began looting and the beaten French army escaped. Furious, Wellington wrote to the Secretary of War, Lord Bathurst, on 29.7.1813 that: “Our Vagabond Soldiers” had been “Totally knocked up”. A little later, he wrote: “It is quite impossible for me or any other man to command a British Army under the existing system. We have in the service the scum of the earth as common soldiers.”
Looting had no military excuse in his eyes and it went against all ideals of good conduct.  However on 21.11.1813 he had seemingly forgotten the matter, writing proudly that his army was: “The most complete machine for its numbers now existing in Europe.”  The infamous 'scum' quotation you referred to was not said out loud during the war but years later.  In 1831 in conversation with Lord Stanhope he was asked: “Do they beat them in the French Army?” to which the Duke replied “Oh, they bang them about very much with their ramrods and that sort of thing, and then they shoot them… The conscription calls out a share of every class – no matter whether your son or my son – all must march; but our friends – I may say it in this room – are the very scum of the earth… people talk of their enlisting from their fine military feeling – all stuff – no such thing. Some of our men enlist from having bastard children – some for minor offences – many more for drink; but you can hardly conceive such a set brought together, and it really is wonderful that we should have made them the fine fellows they are.”
Wellington expected his troops to serve out of duty to country, as he did, not out of duty to him. The 'scum' comment is a disillusioned Wellington speaking, a man let down and disappointed in men he had brought into creditable fighting form. His subsequent writings show that over the course of the last two years of the Napoleonic War, he came to admire them again as never before. To me the progression in his writing is telling about how he actually felt about his army.
With this in mind, rather than being a general slur on his common soldiers, the term 'Scum of the Earth' seems to have been a pet phrase of the Duke’s - one he used when he was angry, especially where the service was involved. Throughout his life he was prone to allowing irritations get the better of him, prompting outbursts that were often hurtful, unjust or damaging to all concerned. However they can hardly be taken as the gospel he lived by, and he certainly did not confine this phrase to his soldiers alone. He first used the 'scum of the earth' phrase in 1800 to refer to crooked Indian translators, then in 1809, after the 'selling of commissions' scandal involving the Duke of York’s mistress: “..as it will be manifest to the whole world that not one of any party… has had any concern, direct or indirect, in the sale of an office and that these transactions, which have deservedly created so much indignation, have been carried on by the scum of the earth”.
Thus I'm convinced that in your 'scum of the earth' quotation he wasn't speaking in the terms everyone assumes he was. Whenever troops or anyone else did something unforgiveable they were scum. That was the word he liked to use. Wellington was not an abusive, aloof commander.  He went to great pains to ensure his men were well-fed, looked after, and valued.  That made them better soldiers and he wouldn't have risked using a remark like 'scum of the earth' to their faces or in such a way that might undermine their loyalty.
Back to top Go down
Hobbes

Hobbes


Posts : 22
Join date : 2024-01-28
Location : Baja, Hungary

British rations and morale Empty
PostSubject: Re: British rations and morale   British rations and morale EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 9:01 pm

Wow, thanks for the detailed response! Yes, i always thought that that quote must have been taken out of context many times, and could not be used to describe Wellington's views on his men, which were much more complex in all likelihood. I wrote this as an example more so to refer to the stereotypes about the army that might have existed during that time. That Kipling poem is really great, both as a work of art and a source.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3960
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

British rations and morale Empty
PostSubject: Re: British rations and morale   British rations and morale EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 11:04 pm

I guessed as much but it's worth clearing up the whole 'scum' issue.
It's so often misunderstood and used to malign Wellington unjustly in my view.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3960
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

British rations and morale Empty
PostSubject: Re: British rations and morale   British rations and morale EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm

P.S. More to follow!
Back to top Go down
 
British rations and morale
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» British Morale during the Zulu War
» morale and the siege at Eshowe
» Non- British regiments’ Zulu war.

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: