Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.

Can anyone tell me what Regiment this man belonged to please? He was mentioned in the obituary for Pt John Jobbins.


"As the coffin was borne from the house to the hearse, the firing party brought their rifles to the “present” and afterward to the reverse. Sgt-Major C. Norman D.C.M., was in charge with Sgt J Roberts. There was a representative gathering of the British Legion Organisations. Mr James Frowen Williams [Zulu war Veteran] was also present together with Mr W. H. Roberts from Bargoed. A large crowd assembled at the graveside, where full military honours were accorded the departed veteran, and floral tributes were laid."

Cheers
Bookworm

Hi Bookworm

I am unable to pin point James Frowen Williams, I have the following list:-

Private F. Williams, RM, RN HMS Euphrates
Private F. Williams, 2nd 21st Royal Scots Fusiliers
Private F. Williams, Army Service Corps (Transport)
Private F. Williams, Royal Durban Rifles
Lieutenant F. Williams, Diamond Fields Horse.

I hope this helps

Bookworm. You have started something here. I have just had a message from Littlehand, who is busy searching for this Chap. I have spent a couple of hours. Nil result. (But we will continue the search)

Hi Both,

Thanks for trying, I had thought that with the distinctive middle name it might be easy to find something but I had the same result, nil.

Cheers,
Bookworm

james frowen williams was a long relative of mine, my father as the same middle name, frowen... i have struggled to get much information on him however, but apparently he was out on manouvers when the zulu's attacked, losing his eye in the process. i have photo's of him that i will post when can.

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1232 J Williams Corporal in F Company 23/1/1879 awarded 1877-8-9 with clasp  As per The Noble 24th. 

Did not take part in the defence of RD, although he may have been there after the event.

I saw this on the RDVC Forum .
90th

I wonder if the individual could be No.25B/800 James Frowan?

The article Littlehand uploaded provides a few interesting details, the first being service in the Monmouthshire Militia.

A James Frowen No. 6186 enlisted 12/01/1876, at Pontypool, age 21, occupation Collier, address 5 Houses (this is how it has been transcribed from the original), Abertillery, height 5' 7''

I cannot find a John Rosser enlisting at the same time, however, there is a possible candidate.

John Prosser No. 6185 same enlistment date, same place, age 19, occupation Collier, address 2 Houses, Abertillery, height 5' 7"

I would be very surprised if they did not know each other.

No. 800 Frowan enlisted into the 24th Regiment 25/03/1876, occupation given as collier, born Pontypool and age was 21. Same man as joined the Militia ??
No. 797 (799 on Effects Roll) Prosser enlisted 23/03/1876, however age given as 18 years 4 months so a discrepancy, but both men enlisted at Monmouth.

I accept there are some discrepencies, spelling of names, age, etc., but No. 800 is a possible candidate given what we know.

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Western mail, 30 December 1935.

Excellent pic Andy , Although he wasn't at the Battle of RD I'm sure he could've told the young uns the story of what happened ?
90th

I wonder how he came to get associated with the Battle of RD?

Was it a mistake that he happened to find convenient eg said he was "at RD and people thought he meant he was AT RD" or was it a deliberate tale put around by the chap?

We'll never know I suppose but I like to surmise.

A long shot - might there be a connexion to L/Corp C Frowen (G coy) who was with Upcher's men on the road from Helpmekaar to RD?

According to the research of Alan R Baynham' Jones at the Royal Welsh museum he lists him as 25B/903 2/24th James Frowan Williams.

Served in the Mounted Infantry (2nd Sqn) Attended the funeral of Jobbins 26/09/1934

Don't believe I have ever seen an initial in the pay-lists so maybe that's why he is difficult to pin-point?

I have this man in my MI list but without a middle name.  ABJ has his middle name as Frowen not Frowan.  I can't verify the middle name at the moment.  I wonder where ABJ found it? One of the articles above?

Yes, you're right Frowen, my slip up.

ABJ has only the vaguest entry, enlisting circa 1876 yet he is clearly in the 25th Brigade Depot from 20/11/1876 with an almost immediate posting to the 2/24th a few days later. That may be an indicator of prior Militia training. His appendices' do list WO 12/10247 for the Depot 1876-77 so he must have missed that entry.
Perhaps if he was Militia it may be in WO 13/1534-35 covering Monmouth & Brecon 1872-76 which he has also listed.

As far as the pay lists go he was a private when his MI duty started in March 1878 till it finished on 12.9.1879. No sign of a corporalcy. Barrow's 2nd Squadron was with Pearson's column so Williams could not have been at RD (at least not in the immediate aftermath of the battle; he might of course have been there later in the war).

Welll, not sure why Littlehand assumes he was 1232 J. Williams who was promoted L/Cpl not full Cpl.
As we all know (from England's Sons) the only Williams at Rorke's Drift were:
1328 L/Sgt Thomas Williams
1395 Pte. John Williams (aka Fielding V
C.)
1398 Pte. Joseph Williams KIA
934 Pte.John Williams died 05/02/1879 at RD. Incidentally he was a collier from Pontypool.
The earliest men returned from India was on the 27th January 1883 and it did include 903 Williams.
Also:
944 Evan Williams
979 Harry P. Williams
2637 Hugh Williams
It would appear from the tone of the articles that it is stating he was a Rorke's Drift survivor, whether it is from him or a misinterpretation from the newspaper. Which is certainly untrue if Williams was his name in the pay-lists.

As seems to have been fairly common, anyone interviewed by the papers who was 'at RD', was assumed to have fought there, even if they were only passing through or visiting a few weeks later. It is easy to see how an old soldier could be persuaded by circumstances to "remember with advantages" and fall into the trap of saying, 'yes, I was at RD.'.

Especially if a pint or two usually followed the confirmation of 'being there'.....

Precisely! They were the 'circumstances' I was referring to!

This is why I joined this forum debate, analysis, problem solving and a dose of humour.
I want to believe No. 903 James Williams is our man but there are one or two things that do not sit easy with me.
No. 903 Williams attestation/service record makes no mention of having served in the militia (a lie?), there is also no mention of the loss of an eye, although he did have an extended stay in hospital between 01/12/1879 and 10/01/1880, but for the life of me I cannot decipher the handwriting as to cause. He subsequently served in Gibraltar and India before transfer to the Army Reserve 30/03/1883. If he lost an eye would that not show on his medical record and probably lead to discharge from the service?? if of course he lost the eye in service!
His age on enlistment was 19 years 1 month, so a birth sometime in October 1857, does that tally with the newspaper article. Also his occupation is farm labourer, the newspaper article indicates early service in the pits, would he have then become a farm labourer??
I am sure there are people far better positioned than I to answer this.

Death at the age of 83 - if he was born in 1857, that puts his death in 1940. The records aren't available to the public yet. The 1939 Register is though (and it was updated during the war). I'll have to check if he was still alive then.
Militia service was not always included in service records and the eye loss could have occurred post-discharge. There is nothing to suggest that 903 isn't our man but I would like to know on what basis ABJ assigned the 'Frowen' to him. That, I'm afraid we'll never know.

Julian,
I've just taken another look at the article that Littlehand posted which was taken from another forum. At the bottom of the newspaper page written in pen is the date January 21, 1938 (this is not on Littlehand's screenshot)

If that is correct birth year would be 1855 possibly 1854.

Of course it is not part of the original document but would not understand somebody adding it if it did not have meaning.

The precise date offered makes sense.

Just an update to my previous post, I believe the date of January 21, 1938 on the article relates to the date of the newspaper.

I have found a burial record for a James Frowen Williams, his address is given as 10 Dent's Buildings, Abersychan and the burial date is January 13, 1938 age given as 84.

There appears to be a birth record from Q1 1855 for an individual of the same name, mothers maiden named recorded as Parry.

Looks like you've found your man.

As Julian said I found my man, but who did I find!

        I wanted to see if I could in some way answer any of the questions regarding who was James Frowen Williams. The newspaper article provides a series of details that may or may not help in the identification process, I don’t intend to copy large amounts of the text as it can be viewed in a previous post.

There is no man with the name James Frowen Williams listed in either the Medal roll, Noble 24th or to my knowledge the pay and muster rolls, however, it is likely he did serve under an alias using elements of his name i.e. Frowen or Williams rather than both.

From the details in the aforementioned article and a little research we can conclude that he died in 1938 at the age of 83, giving a birth year circa 1855, described as a native of Abertillery and having served in both the Monmouthshire Militia and 24th Regiment.

A parish burial record for 1938 confirms various details including his address at time of death. As I have already said I believe he enlisted using elements of his full name, to propose otherwise is to have to consider any individual whose record of service does not exist and that is needle in a haystack time.

Consideration has been given in regards to whether Militia service or lack of plays any part in the timescale when transferring from the brigade depot to the line battalion. I have looked at numerous service records for men with and without Militia service, some with no recorded service were transferred to the line battalion within one to two weeks, whilst others with service spent months at the depot. I am sure others have more of a handle on policy at the time.

For the purpose of this piece I have confined myself to searching for any individual within the Monmouthshire Militia and 24th Regiment with either the name James Williams or James Frowen or alternative spellings.

There are no James Williams (to the best of my knowledge) in the 1st battalion who survived the war and only one confirmed in the 2nd battalion, being 25B/903 James Williams (this individual has been mentioned by other forum members) and is under consideration based on my search parameters.

There is one individual in the 2nd battalion, 25B/800 James Frowan who will also be considered.

Having identified two possible candidates I felt it was important to match as closely as possible the details recorded in the newspaper to any service records that exist. This approach may be disagreeable to some/many, however, to ignore what is recorded I believe would not be appropriate in this case.

Sadly no service record for 25B/800 Frowan appears to have survived (as far as I know), however, the Noble 24th gives a few basic details, born at Pontypool, Glamorgan; trade – collier. Enlisted at Monmouth, Monmouthshire 25/3/1876; age 21 years. South Africa Medal with clasp 1877-8-9. Therefore we can say based on these details a birth year of 1855 or possibly 1854 but not much more.

A service record for 25B/903 Williams does survive, enlisted for the 25th brigade at Brecon on 20/11/1876 by Sgt-Maj George Webster, born in the parish of Tredegar, given age 19 years and 1 month, occupation farm labourer. No indication of Militia service. This would give a birth sometime in October 1857. It may simply be the case that his time in the Militia was not recorded on attestation, but it is perfectly reasonable to believe some trace of a Militia record would exist, especially if pay or allowances were involved. Further analysis of 903 Williams documents show strong links to Herefordshire, his next of kin (father) lived in Herefordshire, he married Mary Ann Hall in Herefordshire in 1884 and his residence at the end of service was again in Herefordshire, at this point there is nothing strongly linking him to Abertillery.

The museum at Monmouth Castle houses some of the Militia records for the Monmouthshire Militia. Some of these records have been transcribed – not without error – and are available online. The years leading up to 903 Williams enlisting have been transcribed and can be searched – a word of caution the site is not secure, so I would recommend some anti-virus and possibly a VPN -. A search was conducted for both Williams and Frowan or variants thereof, a total of four (4) records for Williams and one for Frowan/Frowen were returned. Of the four records with the name James Williams two were discounted at this point.

Williams, James - No. A4548/5567 enlisted 23/12/1873 aged 32 - Can be discounted on age alone.
Williams, James – No. 6973, enlisted 07/03/1878 aged 18 - can be discounted on age and enlistment date.

That leaves the following:

Williams, James – No. 5930, enlisted 20/01/1875 aged 19 at Pontypool, occupation given as labourer, living at 6, Nailors Row, Abersychan, Monmouthshire. Notes say he cannot read or write.

This individual would have been born in 1856 or possibly 1855, we know 903 Williams enlisted in November 1876 aged 19 years and 1 month so age is problematic. The place of enlistment matches the article and there is also a connection with Abersychan. This individual is noted as illiterate, 903 Williams signed his own name on enlistment, it is possible to learn to read and write within the timeframe but how can it be proven he did so? On the day he enlisted into the Militia a further seventeen (17) men also enlisted, besides Williams five others did so at Pontypool. Of the other five, only No. 5927 Hayes, Daniel resided in Abersychan, and so could possibly have been known by Williams. Nobody enlisting at Pontypool on 20/01/1875 had the name Rosser or similar.

Williams, James – No. 5944, enlisted 21/01/1875 aged 21 at Pontypool, occupation Tin Furnace Man, living at 3, Cottage Row, Abercarn, Monmouthshire. Notes say he cannot read or write.

This individual would have been born in 1854 or possibly 1853, we know 903 Williams was 19 in November 1876 you do the maths! The other details, occupation and literacy also raise doubts. On the day of he joined the Militia a further twelve (12) men enlisted, of these, four were at Pontypool. Not one of the other four resided at Abercarn, however one, No. 5946 Prosser, George does have a name similar to that mentioned in the article. Prosser was a puddler and living at 67 the High St, Blaenavon, I have found no direct link between the two.

There being no further James Williams to research I turned my attention to the one hit using the name James Frowen.

Frowen, James – No. 6186, enlisted 12/01/1876 aged 21 at Pontypool, occupation given as collier, living at 5 Houses, Abertillery. Notes say cannot read or write.

This individual would have been born in 1855 or possibly 1854, place of enlistment corresponds to article, there is a proven link to Abertillery and his occupation is sound. The fact he is unable to read or write may in this case be of value, 25B/800’s name is spelt with an ‘a’ not an ‘e’, would his illiteracy have prevented him from correcting a spelling error on enlistment to the 24th Regiment? presumably his signature was an ‘x’. Another possibility is an error in transcription from the original Militia record.

On the day Frowen joined the Militia only one other individual enlisted at Pontypool.

No. 6185 Prosser, John, enlisted 12/01/1876 aged 19 at Pontypool, occupation given as collier, living at 2 Houses, Abertillery. Notes say cannot read or write.

The two men are living in close proximity to each other, maybe they worked at the same pit (speculation on my part) it is perfectly reasonable to suggest they knew each other. An error in preparation or editing of the article, or the fading memory of an old man or family recollections could easily explain the Rosser/Prosser issue. A further detail is that a John Prosser No. 797 (effects roll No. 799) enlisted at almost the same time as 25B/800 Frowan into the 24th Regiment.

As I have already said there are errors within the rolls, the numbers 6241-6248 are either missing or were not issued. If issued they would have been allocated in the middle of January 1876 possibly at Pontypool or Monmouth so could skew any results.

There is one other record I will highlight to show transparency:

No. 247 (8970) Williams, James, enlisted 08/02/1882 into the 3rd Bn Berks Regt. his age is given as 25, height 5’ 8”, cannot read or write but served 5 years in the Monmouth Militia.

He of course cannot be 903 Williams (still serving with 24th Regiment) but could be one of the other Williams listed above, I have not researched this individual further.

I have tried to list all the information in a coherent way, if I have failed please accept my apology. I have stated previously that I believe James Frowen Williams enlisted as 25B/800 James Frowan, the personal details, records and circumstantial evidence available to me have not changed my mind, of course a service record would be nice, even if it did contradict my theory. I believe I have given full consideration as to whether 903 Williams was our man, but I cannot make the details/evidence fit. Others will disagree with my conclusion and that is ok.

Sometimes research leaves us with an either/or situation and with this we have to be content. I have found though that, often, 20 or 30 years later something crops up which proves the point one way or another. Sometimes this has come about while I've been researching something completely different, sometimes someone else has found the missing jigsaw piece and I happen to have come across it in his or her researches. Trpr. Hayhow's Christian name is a case in point. This forum is particularly good for getting resolutions.
As my dad used to say to me when I was getting over-eager, 'Patience, my son, patience.'

I do find the idea of an 'over eager' Julian strange....

When my son was about 2, if he got over eager/excited he used to run on the spot and pull his trousers down.....(He must have got that from MrsSRB1965)

Well...it's obvious who wears the trousers in YOUR family!

Oi, I wear the trousers in our house (when MrsSRB1965 lets me have them back)

Laugh?! I nearly died!

Julian Whybra wrote:

A long shot - might there be a connexion to L/Corp C Frowen (G coy) who was with Upcher's men on the road from Helpmekaar to RD?

Julian,

You have probably seen what I am about to write but thought others may find it of interest. The Forest of Dean FHT Forum dated 27 January 2012 had the following:

"Would anyone know any details of Courtney Frowen, birth date & parents names are unknown. Probably born in Newland in the 1850's. He had been a miner at the Waterloo Pit at Brierley, whilst serving in the militia (Coleford Rifle Volunteers). He became a Lance Corporal in the 24th Regt. (South Wales Borderers) & died at Rorke's Drift during the Zulu war in March 1879. I have a birth certificate to a John Prosser, born in 1858, who was killed in the preceding battle in January 1879 & it states that his mother was Martha Frowen from Newland, Gloucestershire, born 1820/21. John was born in Abersychan, Monmouthshire, but the family had previously lived in Rockfield, where his father, Thomas Prosser came from. Not long before 1871 the family moved to Mountain Ash.

I believe that Martha Frowen was the aunt of Courtney Frowen, but would like to find out more about this. Martha was probably the eldest daught of Ann & ??? Frowen. Ann was born in 1794 at Newland & her other children were Elizabeth b. 1823, James b. 1828, Henry b. 1829, Harriet b. 1830, & Ann b. 1838"

There appears to be a family connection between Courtney Frowen and John Prosser. Holme in the Noble 24th gives his first name as Courtney, an article in the Gloucester Journal dated 10 May 1879 and some weeks after it published his letter from Rorke's Drift gives his name as 'Charles Frowen'.

A record on Ancestry has the following: Charles aka Courtney Frowen, birth 10 Jul 1860, Coleford, Gloucestershire, England. Death 12 Mar 1879, South Wales Borderers, Natal, South Africa. Mother Charlotte Savory. Father James Frowen

A Charles Frowen was born to James and Charlotte Frowen in Q3 1860, this is confirmed by a BMD record showing mother's maiden name.

A bit of circumstantial evidence follows;- James and Charlotte had a number of children, Hannah was the eldest and then Charles, plus various siblings including Elizabeth b. 1868 d. 1872 and John East b. 1871 d. 1874, East being James Frowen mother's maiden name. There is a possible newspaper report regarding James Frowen b. 1863 in the Gloucestershire Echo dated 10/02/1902 where he is described as the eldest son of James Frowen (Coleford), this may show that Charles had died prior to this date maybe in 1879!

The Forest of Dean Forum contains a large amount of data about a lot of Frowen's - a very common name in the area of Gloucestershire and Monmouthshire. There is also reference to correspondence with 'Alun Baynham' at the Regimental Museum trying to identify C Frowen, with thoughts that Courtney was an alias (possibly an incorrectly recorded name?).

So with a possible connection between C Frowen and John Prosser, is it also possible that James Frowen Williams had a family connection?

The Forest of Dean information can be found on line, far too much to reproduce here.

One other thought regarding Charles/Courtney is an enlistment by a Charles Frowen into the Monmouthshire Militia in 1878 aged 18, address Cross Keys, near Coleford, same man?. I have searched for any records for the Coleford Rifle Volunteers and Gloucestershire Archives appear to have a nominal roll for the Coleford and Newnham Company's for 1877 only, but it has not been digitized.

I wish anyone wanting to put a family tree together the best of luck, with so many people with the name Frowen there are a lot of dead ends.

Hope some of the above has been useful.

Dash
Yes I have seen most of what you posted. A connexion would be interesting to prove. Thank you for doing so. I liked the 'dead ends' pun.

littlehand wrote:

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1232 J Williams Corporal in F Company 23/1/1879 awarded 1877-8-9 with clasp  As per The Noble 24th. 

Did not take part in the defence of RD, although he may have been there after the event.

I have used the details in the article as a starting point for a search of census records which may or may not aid identification.

The 1891 census which took place on the 05/04/91 has the following:

Address: Round Stables, Pentrepeod, Trevethin within Pontypool, Monmouthshire.
James Frewyn Williams - age 33, b. [circa] 1858, haulier underground, Abertillery, Mon.,
Mary Williams - age 28, b. [circa] 1863, Pontypool
John Charles - age 8, b. [circa] 1883, Garndiffaith [about 3 miles north of Pontypool]
George Charles - age 3, b. [circa] 1888, Garndiffaith

On 02/03/1891 James Fowen Williams married Mary Cobner (widow) at Llanhilleth, James signs with an 'X', his father is John Williams
The maiden name of the mother of John and George is COBNER

On the 1881 census Mary Cobner is at Garndiffaith, head of the household is John Charles, aged 63 and also present is his son Thomas Charles, aged 24 (I wonder if he was her first husband - no record)

The 1901 census which took place on the 31/03/1901 has the following:

Address: Henshaw Street, Abersychan, Pontypool, Monmouthshire.
James Williams - age 47, b. [circa] 1854, labourer below ground, Abertillery, Mon.,
Mary Williams - age 35, b. [circa] 1866
John Charles - age 19, b. [circa] 1882, Abersychan
George Charles - age 13, b. [circa] 1888, Abersychan
James Williams - age 8, b. [circa] 1893, Abersychan - b. Q2 1892 mother's maiden name CHARLES

Interesting that she used the name Charles when registering the birth!

The 1911 census which took place on the 02/04/11 has the following:

Address: Gorrell Steps, Dents Buildings, Abersychan, Mon.,
James Williams - age 58, b. [circa] 1853, stonebreaker, Abertillery, Mon.,
Polly Williams - age age 49, b. [circa] 1862, housekeeper, Pontypool
James Williams - age 19, b. [circa] 1892, haulier below, Forest of Dean

The 1911 census had new questions one which asked the length of marriage in years, in this case 20, and how many children, born, living, died, they have answered 1 (so they have not counted the boys from Mary's first marriage). Polly and Molly were quite common nicknames or the like at the time for women called Mary (who knew). Mary Elizabeth Williams, b. [circa] 1865, died aged 70, 10 Dents Buildings, Abersychan 1935, burial date 07/12/1935 Garndiffaith.

The step son in the article Thomas was probably born Q2 1884 and was possibly named after his father.

James Frewen Williams aged 61, b. [circa] 1893, died 1954 at the Royal Gwent Hospital, Newport, he was buried 14/08/1954 at Garndiffaith

As with all census records up to 1911 what you are able to see are the compiled records and not the sheets handed to each household for completion, so there is always likely to be inconsistencies. The census records and details in the article match up in a number of areas.

Now there is some debate as to whether James Frowen Williams was 25B/903 James Williams so I have tried to research that individual as well based on what was in his service notes.

The 1891 census has the following:

Address: Standard (?) Terrace, Dylais Upper, Neath Glamorganshire
James Williams - age 33, b. [circa] 1858, hitcher in coal mine, Radnorshire
Mary Ann Williams - age 23, b. [circa] 1868, Pembridge, Herefordshire
Rose Williams - age 4, b. [circa] 1887, Eardisland
Ruth Williams - age 2, b. [circa] 1889, Eardisland
Alfred Williams - age 0, b. [circa] 1891, Eardisland

The mother's maiden name for all the children is HALL

Herefordshire marriages
1884 James Williams, age 26, b. [circa] 1858 married Mary Ann Hall, age 16, b. [circa] 1868, residence Eardisland, Herefordshire, groom's father named as Richard Williams

On his Section D Reserve sheet dated 1888, James has Richard as his next of kin and residence is Herefordshire

The marriage details correspond with the details in the service records, exact date given 09/02/1884

I have tracked this line to the 1901 and 1911 census, the 1911 record shows the length of marriage being 27 years and the couple had 10 children, six of whom were still alive at the time of the 1911 census. The marriage length is accurate for an 1884 marriage, the area which raised my eyebrows was place of birth for James Williams changing to Dudley, Staffs., I can offer no explanation for that, but the other individuals personal details remained constant.

So in summary the newspaper article provides more details than I first appreciated, it allowed me to trace James Frowen Williams far easier than I anticipated. James Williams was somewhat more difficult, I was unable to link him to Tredegar, but the marriage and 1891 census I believe provide solid details for identification purposes.

Therefore I believe the above indicates that James Frowen Williams and 25B/903 James Williams are not the same man, who James Frowen Williams really was, well somebody else can have a go at that.

I did not review the 1921 census as I am not sure how much more it would add, the 1931 census would have probably firmed up the Dents Buildings address for James Frowen Williams, but, we will never know as it was destroyed in a fire in 1942 and as the 1941 census did not take place it will be a long time before another one is released.

regards
Dash