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Younghusband

Younghusband


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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 07, 2010 2:23 pm

yes agree, just below the site of Durnfords last stand -

Interesting question though - is there a cairn near the site of where Russell's battery was overwhelmed?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 07, 2010 2:48 pm

There is one fairly close but its generally accepted to be the graves of CS Wolf and around 20 of his company.
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 07, 2010 4:48 pm

This image is taken near/adjacent the Natal Carbineers memorial on the face of Malhabamkhosi, the grass path has been cut leading to it. Durnfords position is concealed behind the two thorn bushes left. my image does give a good impression of the elevation of Malhabamkhosi behind the memorial, it is quite steep, and quite chore to climb.
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Russells battery position is the best part of 2 miles away, approx half a mile beyond the conical hill where the smoke is rising. This image is from the saddle.

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http://www.martinihenry.org
littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptySat Nov 13, 2010 9:13 pm

Come across this, not sure if is a copy of the original, but i have only ever seen this in books, normally Black & White with blurred detail.
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Last edited by littlehand on Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 14, 2010 6:20 am

Hi littlehand.
Looks like an original to me , but I'm no expert on photography .
cheers 90th.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 14, 2010 10:01 am

How many waggons were there at Isandlwana on the 22nd January.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: The Battle Of Isandlwana    The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 14, 2010 10:57 pm

Hi Impi.
Many ! , I would guess 200 possibly more , I may have a look and see what I can find .
cheers 90th.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: How many wagons at Isandlwana ?   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 14, 2010 11:35 pm

Hi Impi .
Wagon totals for each column
Pearson's Column - 384 Wagons , 24 Carts.
Durnford's Column - 30 Wagons .
Glyn's Column - 220 Wagons , 82 Carts.
Wood's Column - 41 Wagons , 5 Carts.
Rowland's Column - 17 Wagons , 2 Carts .
Hope this helps .
cheers 90th.

ps. Forgot to say that these Stats are from Ian Knight's ' Companion To The Anglo Zulu War '.
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quint




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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyMon Nov 15, 2010 5:56 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Impi .
Wagon totals for each column
Pearson's Column - 384 Wagons , 24 Carts.
Durnford's Column - 30 Wagons .
Glyn's Column - 220 Wagons , 82 Carts.
Wood's Column - 41 Wagons , 5 Carts.
Rowland's Column - 17 Wagons , 2 Carts .
Hope this helps .
cheers 90th.

ps. Forgot to say that these Stats are from Ian Knight's ' Companion To The Anglo Zulu War '.


One thing i was wondering about the camp at Isandlwana - was there a big marquee-style tent as an officer's mess like we see in Zulu Dawn? If not, where would inter-officer briefings take place? Outside?
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyMon Nov 15, 2010 8:07 pm

With reference to the photo posted by Littlehand. I have highlighted a blue circle, would where there appears to men & horses. Would that have been the place as deplicted in the famous painting by The Battle Of Isandlwana where the stand took place..
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Nov 16, 2010 7:38 am

Hi John
Fripps painting is his interpretaion of the last stand. It could have been where you have circled. The only thing we really have to go on is the positions of the cairns, even then the remains were gathered into piles and so could have been brought from some distance away. The traditional areas for the stands are on the side on Blacks Koppie by Durnford/Pullen(behind the photographer). A touch more towards the camera is the present day 24th monument and the stand of C E and F companies. Behind the horses more up the hill is the stand of Younghusband. Further down the hill to the right is the H company stand of George Wardell. to the left and just of camera was the rally point for A company and the begining of their fighting retreat down to the stream.

Hope that helps
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 21, 2010 6:31 pm

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90th

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PostSubject: battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptySun Nov 21, 2010 10:07 pm

Hi Quint.
I have just noticed your ps on your earlier post . In answer to your question about the Marquee I'm not sure if they had
one or not !. I seem to doubt it , as it would have taken up to much room . The Headquarters staff had their own tents ,
They may have had a larger one to pass as a mess tent or Headquarters tent where the daily paperwork was kept up tp date but not completely sure on that matter .
cheers 90th.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyMon Nov 22, 2010 7:43 pm

Not convinced they would have bothered with Marquee’s when in enemy territory and on the move. Isandlwana was only a stop over. I heard of striking the tents. but never striking the Marquee. (Joke) Suspect
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old historian2

old historian2


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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 19, 2011 8:28 am

Doe's anyone know what percentage of those who escaped Isandlwana on horse back wore Red Jackets.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 19, 2011 1:24 pm

Hi OH
This is probably as close as I can get.
Suvivors total: 81
imperial forces: 31
volunteers and civilians: 50

The imperial suvivors were a mixture of IMI, Band, Artillery, Rocket battery and admin.
You would need to look at the uniforms and see which would be in blue and which in red. Its also possible that some could have been in shirt sleeves.
Have fun working through it.

Regards
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 19, 2011 8:03 pm

Thanks Spingbok. I can across this which was why i asked the question.

"Mounted Red-Coats were very much afraid, and quickly cried and ran away, whereas the mounted Black-Coats and foot soldiers were generaly not afraid of death, but fought on until they died revolver in hand".

Would he be relating to Durnford when he says Black Coats and revolver in hand. (Just a guess)
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 19, 2011 9:24 pm

What colour jacket was Melville wearing when he left.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 19, 2011 10:12 pm

Quote :
Mounted Red-Coats were very much afraid,
I should think they were, The Zulu were told to only kill those wearing Red Jackets. Bit of an ace up the sleeves for those wearing the dark blue jackets. Rolling Eyes
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ciscokid




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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 19, 2011 11:00 pm

old historian2 wrote:
Thanks Spingbok. I can across this which was why i asked the question.

"Mounted Red-Coats were very much afraid, and quickly cried and ran away, whereas the mounted Black-Coats and foot soldiers were generaly not afraid of death, but fought on until they died revolver in hand".
Who is this quoting?

Thanks
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 19, 2011 11:29 pm

Cisco. It was by Vijn, Cornelius
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90th

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PostSubject: The Battle Of Isandlwana    The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyWed Apr 20, 2011 1:41 am

Hi all.

Not to sure that Cornelius Vijn can be 100 % believed as he was a prisoner of sorts held at Ulundi when the Battle of
Isandlwana took place if I'm not mistaken . Happy to be corrected .
cheers 90th.
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DundeeBoer

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyWed Apr 20, 2011 2:22 am

Littlehand,

Melvill wore red.

From Col. Glyns February report to the DAG.

".......It would appear that now the enemy had assembled in considerable force along their own bank, and had oped a heavy fire on our people directing it more especially on Lt. Melville [sic] who wore a red patrol jacket....."

Regards, Jeff
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyWed Apr 20, 2011 7:56 am

(0th
Yep, Vijn was still a 'guest' at Ulundi. Its second hand coming from him but I cant see any real reason that he would have made it up so specifically, I would tend tend to accept it at face vale. He isnt really saying anything new, other sources indicated that the Red Soldier fought well and that the first to flee were on horse back. We also know that one of the key restistance pockets was below the kopie with the QM Pullen and Durnford. That group was mainly volunteers and Natal Carbs and so dressed in Black.
Vijn could just be repeating what he heard in conversation.

Just a theory

Regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyWed Apr 20, 2011 9:09 pm

Cornelius Vijn. Cetshwayo's Dutchman; being the private journal of a white trader in Zululand during the British invasion 1879

http://www.archive.org/details/cetshwayosdutch00vijngoog

Is there any other information about Cornelius Vijn.
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90th

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PostSubject: The Battle Of Isandlwana    The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu Apr 21, 2011 6:06 am

Hi All .
For those who may be interested Vijn's book is often for sale on Ebay .
cheers 90th. Idea
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue Apr 26, 2011 1:20 pm

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sCENE OF THE BATTLE OF ISANDLWANA, WITH LORD CHELMSFORD ADVANCING COLUMN.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyMon May 16, 2011 8:09 pm

Just a thought. Would it have been possible for British Soldiers / Colonial Soldiers to have climbed to the top of Isandlwana on the Plato to formed a defence be it with rifle fire, bayonet. I was just thinking how hard it would have been to dislodge a fighting force that held the high ground. I have never been to Isandlwana, so my thoughts are just base on the images posted of the mountain of Isandwana. The chances are it maybe impossible to climb. I not saying lag ammo boxes up the mountain just a few hundred rounds per- man. Please remember this is just a thought of mine.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyMon May 16, 2011 8:49 pm

Something I have thought about John. But like you I'm not sure access to the top is easy. But when it comes to a matter of life of death anything could be accomplished. John. Perhaps we should go there and try it out. Idea
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Al Amos

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue May 17, 2011 12:40 am

I've wondered why a lookout or signals group wasn't posted up there from the get-go. Of course any commander thinking that clearly would've followed his own orders and fortified the camp. ;-)
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue May 17, 2011 7:16 am

Al Amos
A look out was posted on the mountain, very little poit really as the top of the mountain is below the level of the Nqutu ridge over which the attack came.
Its highly possible (conjecture) that this sentry stayed up there through the battle and was eventually thrown of, a body was found with a rope around its neck and the skull crushed next to the cliff face.

John

The main access today, and then I assume, to the top of the mountain is from the back/side face. When the line started to contract Young Husband pulled his troops around the face of the mountain towards the tented areas. That left the access point out of reach. There are two thoughts on YH route, firstly that he fought through the tents to try and link up with the balance of the force. The second point, and it works looking at the terrain, is that he followed the line of the scree, its a natural pathway from one end to the point of his last stand. Either way there was no chance of getting up the mountain. I suppose the thought wouldnt have even struck them untill later in the battle when it became really obvious that it was ever man for himself, then it was to late.
The only troops that could have taken the option would have been Shepstones men. Again conjecture, but its highly possible that when the line started to retreat Shepstone on the extreme end moved around the back of the mountain to try and stop the right horn. So he could possible have got to the access point. Wether he would have had sufficient time to get his men climbing is another thought alltogether.

Impi

Best idea yet. :lol!:

Regards
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue May 17, 2011 12:49 pm

AMAAFA have now put prohibition signs up asking that no-one climbs the summit.
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John

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PostSubject: C   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue May 17, 2011 7:30 pm

Thanks for the replies. So it was accessible and troops could have made a defensible possible on top. Or could have held out until reinforcements arrived at least there may have been survivors.
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Al Amos

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyTue May 17, 2011 8:27 pm

Re the sentry: was he thrown off or was it suicide as perhaps he felt the Zulu would be after him soon enough?
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 6:36 am

The more I look at the various photo's of Isandlwana I'm becoming more inclined to say that no matter how the British forces had been dispersed that day it would have made no difference to the out come, it was always going to be a Zulu Victory. The whole area was completely indefensible due to the lack of resources available. I was of the mind like many others, that if this or that been had been done. then it would have been a British Victory. Those Solders that remained on the field through no fault of their own stood shoulder to shoulder and fell where they stood. They really never had a choice they were always going to die. And is it really fair to call Isandlwana a disaster ?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 7:30 am

Al Amos

One of those issues we will nevee know Im afraid, the fact that he had a rope around his neck also obfuscates the issue.

John

Highly unlikly they could have got up to the top.

24th

Tad fatalistic David.
Blood River less men against a bigger Zulu Force, organised though. Ulundi, Khambula, same story. To many wrong decisions by a variety of people, almost amateurish really. Underestimation, personal redemption, out of their league. Lots of errors combined.
Saw a description once: Unauthorised deviation from criteria based standard. ( Cock Up = Disaster ) Probably says it all.

Regards
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 8:38 am

The rope bit, like the drummer boys, screwdrivers and jamming rifles is all part of the grand post battle Victorian melodrama and has and as Springie puts is probably folklore rather than fact.

Here is the North face of Isandlwana, taken in March, apart from one small access just behind the tree, far left, is completely unaccessible, a good climber could also gain access to the rear face, in hobnail boots?, very difficult indeed.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

That said the Telehane Ridge is higher than the summit, so apart from small areas over to the left of the Telehane ridge, (Not the perceived angle of threat) it has no tactical benefit of putting someone up there. Vadettes on Mpete Hill have a better vantage, and can see the majority of the obscured left flank.

A sentry on the spur, latterly held by Younghusband would see as much. Heres a 180 view from that position, I can tell you the view from the summit is not much better

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John

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 3:54 pm

The image below, was taken not long after the Battle. The point I trying to make is with reference to the lower section of Isandlwana. Surely some of the men could have Made their way to the top of that section if only to survive. It would have been very hard for the Zulus to get at those who held that high ground. I don't believe that it's completely inaccessible and when a man is faces with a life and death situation it's amazing what can be achieved.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 4:47 pm

If you divide the mountain into three components, the skirt or scree slope, the lower plateau and the upper plateau. Younghusband fought his stand on the skirt. To get to the upper plateau one climbs to the lower. As Neil and I have tried to point out, not impossible but close to it. Second point the access to the lower plateau are not on the side facing the tents, thats the area the battle and subsequent stands were made. To get to those position where they could have made an attempt to climb they would have had to reverse a fighting withdrawl into a major attack and penetrate virtually the whole chest and then right wing. If they could have done that they would have come close to winning the battle anyway.
Even in life or death situations there are limits for the human body

Regards
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ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 5:07 pm

a good but stange example of human endurance in a desperate situation would be Bravo Two Zero during the gulf war 1991
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 5:38 pm

some camera movie footage of the view from the summit, now you'll get a better idea of how high it is
https://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o140/Neil-naspinshaw/?action=view&current=DSCN2393.mp4

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John

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 8:15 pm

Hooray!!! Now this has got to be the best yet. My god I really didn't realise how far they were away from a natural defence. This really brings it home just how bad the men were positioned. Just think if when the first signs came about that there was going to be an attack if they had they had all formed up close with there back to the mountain to prevent an attack from the rear. I'm sure there would have been a lot more survivors. It would have been hard going for the Zulu's to launch an attack up hill into the fire power that could have been produced by the British. They might even have given up and gone home.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 8:55 pm

Neil. Thanks for posting the film footage. Must admit I'm in John's camp when it's come to the positioning of the men. I really didn't realise they were that faraway from the mountain in the photo's of Isandlwana it looks like the memorial stones are at the base of the mountain.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 10:40 pm

Well let's not blame the Good Lord Chelmsford for that Old H. If the right men had been left in command they would have used the natural defences available. Neil's footage certainly does show the men were positioned in an indefensible open position.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyThu May 19, 2011 11:01 pm

Looking down from the summit gives a better understanding as to why it was Zulu victory.
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90th

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PostSubject: The Battle Of Isandlwana    The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyFri May 20, 2011 1:55 am

Hi Neil .
Thank you for posting the video's it makes it much easier for those who havent been there to understand the geography
of the area .

OH2 / John.
The positioning of the men was the precursor to the disaster , this was covered many times in our attacks on the '' Good Lord
Chelmesford 's '' threads .Most of The men were extended in a dog leg fashion 900 yds in front of the camp . Also I dont want
to bring up the '' Who is responsible '' argument again , but , Pulleine DID set out the troops as laid down in ' The Good
Lord's Standing Orders Orders which was given to the Company Commanders and all the high ranking officers which was handed
out in the December of 1878 .
Cheers 90th. Idea


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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyFri May 20, 2011 8:16 am

"Pulleine DID set out the troops as laid down in ' The Good Lord's Standing Orders Orders"

This is all well and good. But when plan A. Goes wrong. Woundn't a good commander have a plan B. Or was Plan B to die for queen and country.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyFri May 20, 2011 9:32 am

For the guys that dont know the ground well. Look at the beginning of Neils Video, on the left in the distance is a group of huts. That is the approx position of the 'bend' in the line, to the right is a faint line running across the face untill it hits a faint line of trees. That is the line Pope defended, the trees are the aprox position of Durnfords Donga.. Really puts into perspective the amount of territory that was defended.

Regards
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyFri May 20, 2011 12:53 pm

Neil. You have been to Isandlwana many times. You know every thing there is to know about the MH. And what a British soldier was capable of with a MH in his hands. With the film footage in mind I'm placing you in command of the camp that day back in 1879. You have received reports of the advancing Zulu's.
Would you have positioned you men, as Pulliene did. Or would you have made use of the Mountain defences thet was available as it was back then.
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: The Battle of Isandlwana   The Battle of Isandlwana - Page 3 EmptyFri May 20, 2011 2:54 pm

Phew, Ok, Pulleine did not have half enough mounted men to do the essential eyes and ears, so he re-acted, rather than pro-acted. He reacted to the what he believed was the threat, and did what he had been asked to do, i.e defend the camp, which as you can see is a massive area of real estate.

If (oh god I hate what if's) his men had been sweeping well beyond the set vaddette lines his intelligence would have pointed at a multi angle assault, instead he acted on information that the main army was heading his way and he went out to meet it beyond the camp area, on ground, which in actual fact effected the best available field of fire, but did not effect cross company co-operation in terms of the most lethal form of gunfire enfilade or crossfire at a single mass.

So what were he options?, well, he had a big camp to protect, and most of the company paraphernalia was scattered all over the place. He could not go into full square, and the chance to withdraw to the saddle was lost before the main asault began as his defence lines were to rigid and too far apart to make that joureny, but he could have made two, more mobile large square in echelon that effected co-operative enfilade fire, the guns, also a high mobile force being able to move about as necessary to provide close effective mass damage with case,** at hotspots as they presented themselves, Finally, his mounted men, which were tied down in rigid defence, could make the use of their main asset, mobility and the ability to harass and the ability to provide concentrated fire quickly as needed. Be prepared to loose some property, empty wagons were useless to Zulus, but stay self supporting.

The advantage of the echelon formation was not lost, indeed it was used in the Sudan, it had its shortcomings i.e as at Tofrek, (but that was due to surrounding area being bush laden, and the supporting cavalry had not enough time to report and hinder the Mahdist advance, it was close to catastrophy, however, once the RMLI and the Berkshires had formed, and the Bombay Lads had closed, the effect of enfilade and cross fire proved its worth in clearing the ground between the two main bodies of men, whilst the non co-operative side of the squares could keep the multi angle attack at bay.

So ideally, drop the tents, position in echelon, use the mobile forces to hinder rapid infiltration, place the groups in the ground immediate on the levelled tented area, so the flat ground gave the best use of the optimum 2-500 yard killing ground of the Martini, doubled up by enfilade. Use the mountain as a buffer for full envelopment, any zulu infiltrating behind the squares were dead, as they would have provided excellent target practice highlighted on the ground above, and swept clear by the mounted men.

Would it have worked?, who knows, I don't what if, but if you asked what I would have done, given the information in real time, thats it FWIW.



**Case round is far more effective when fired across, than straight at, why? because case works best when it bounces and cuts across, otherwise half of the round simply flies over the target.

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