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 Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc

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Dave
tasker224
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tasker224

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptySun Dec 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Charlie Harford took "two officer deserters into custody." This is noted in his own personal diary after the battle.

Lieutenants Higginson and Stephenson of the NNC.

Are there any other known or documented cases of deserters/ cowardice during the battle? (Apart from the trooper who was shot, apparently deserting RD as discussed on this forum).


Last edited by tasker224 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Dave

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptySun Dec 16, 2012 5:34 pm

There's a thread that covers this on the forum..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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tasker224

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Thanks for the links Dave. So to the list of deserters/ cowards, we can add Captain Carey and Lieutenant Hayward.
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tasker224

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 6:05 pm

So the list of Officer deserters/cowards reads:

Captain Carey 98th Regt.

Lieutenant Avery NNC.

Lieutenant Holcroft NNC.

Lieutenants Higginson NNC.

Lieutenant Stephenson NNC.

Lieutenant Harward 80th Regt.


Possibly:
Lieutenant Adendorfff NNC ???


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ADMIN

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 7:33 pm

Tasker, before including "Captain Carey" research him first. He died a very broken man. A sad story!! Salute
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Drummer Boy 14

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 7:49 pm

Tasker

Even if Adenorff wasn't at RD (which he was ), how does that make him a coward ? He had no men their and dozens of
others passed on without even stopping to talk, why does Adenorff get singled out ?

Also Carey, if he had returned and tryed to save the prince they would both have been killed, Carey had a revolver
with only 6 shots and there were something like 16 Zulus chasing the prince .

Cheers
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Chard1879

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 7:54 pm

You can add Durnford to the list!!!
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Drummer Boy 14

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 7:58 pm

Chard1879 wrote:
You can add Durnford to the list!!!

Question
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tasker224

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 8:09 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Tasker

Even if Adenorff wasn't at RD (which he was ), how does that make him a coward ? He had no men their and dozens of
others passed on without even stopping to talk, why does Adenorff get singled out ?

Also Carey, if he had returned and tryed to save the prince they would both have been killed, Carey had a revolver
with only 6 shots and there were something like 16 Zulus chasing the prince .

Cheers

DB14, I am not saying anyone definitely is, or isn't, I am just posting names mentioned in accounts, as possibly being deserters. See the 2 links that Dave posted, above. I realise that Adendorff may well have stayed and helped defend RD as according to Chard's roll, but there is also a theory that he slipped away from RD. He was also the other officer with Avery and Holcroft who did desert their posts before iSandlwana, so chances are he did too. Read Dave's second link.
Carey, again, his name has come up in accounts, but I am not judging him.
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Drummer Boy 14

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 8:15 pm

Tasker

Sorry about that than, but Adenorff said he would stay and there is no evidece that he left, just nonsence spread by Morris and believed by others who haven't reasharched the accounts. He was there in the morning when Chelsford force marched in and relieved the post, what more evidence does anyone need than that ?


Last edited by Drummer Boy 14 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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impi

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 8:16 pm

If names are going to be posted, then may I suggest, the accusation of Desertion is backup with primary evidence. For example "Carey" was not found guilty of Desertion!!
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90th

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Officer Deserters / Cowards Who Fled Isandlwana   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 8:49 pm

Hi Tasker .
Holcroft and Avery were hungry I'd expect more than deserting , there were many fires ( zulu )around their camp and you'd be a bit worried I'd think attempting to negotiate your way back to the camp at night in those circumstances . I'd be thinking safety in numbers and would've needed a decent reason to attempt a night ride . Thats how I see it .
Cheers 90th
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impi

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 9:01 pm

DB have read TWOTS.
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tasker224

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 9:03 pm

Here you go, here's the article Dave's link leads to:

"Officer desertions from the field of battle during the Anglo-Zulu War were too numerous
for comfort.
By Dr Andres Traverse"

And here is his bibliography: (You trawl through them if you wish to)

Barfield, Doreen, “For Valour” At Fugitives Drift. The South African Military History
Society Journal Vol 1 No 6.
Farwell, Byron, Mr Kipling’s Army All the Queen’s Men. Norton & Co, New York,
1981.
Greaves, Adrian, Crossing the Buffalo the Zulu War of 1879. Cassell, London 2005
Greaves, Adrian, Isandlwana. Cassell, London 2005
Greaves, Adrian, Editor, Redcoats and Zulus, Selected essays from The Journal of the
Anglo Zulu War Society, Pen & Sword. Barnesley 2004
Greaves, Adrian, Rorke’s Drift. Cassell, London 2002
Greaves, Adrian and Knight, Ian, Who’s Who in the Zulu War Volumes 1 and 2.
Pen & Sword, Barnsley 2006
Keegan, John and Holmes, Richard, Soldiers a History of Men in Battle, Viking Penguin
Inc, New York 1986
Knight, Ian, Brave Men’s Blood. Greenhill Books, London 1990
Knight, Ian, The Mysterious Lieutenant Adendorff of Rorke’s Drift; Hero or Coward?
Anglo Zulu War Historical Society Journal.
Knight, Ian, The National Army Museum Book of the Zulu War. Pan Books, London2003
Knight, Ian, With His Face to the Foe, The Life and Death of Louis Napoleon, The
Prince Imperial Zululand 1879. Jonathan Ball Publishers, Johannesburg 2001
Lock, Ron, Blood on the Painted Mountain Zulu Victory and defeat Hlobane and
Kambula, 1879. Greenhill Books, London 1995
Lock, Ron and Quantrill, Peter, Zulu Victory, The Epic of Isandlwana and the Cover-up.
Greenhill Books, London 2002
Morris, Donald, The Washing of the Spears, The Rise and Fall of the Zulu Nation.
Jonathan Cape Ltd, London 1972
Payne, David and Emma, Harford, The Writings, Photographs & Sketches. Ultimatum
Tree Ltd, Wales 2008
Wolseley, Col. Sir Garnet, The Soldiers Pocket Book for Field Service, Macmillan & Co,
London 1871
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 9:04 pm

impi wrote:
DB have read TWOTS.

I did read it, it had no evidence given and Morris made up huge sections of the book, such as accouts by James Hammer ect, and.



Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 9:08 pm

All, I have edited the title of the thread, I had not intended for it to be a Tasker lead witch hunt!
I was hoping to be lead to accounts of reported cowardice and desertions, such as Dave's post, the second in this thread.
Adendorff for example, there are two versions to his story (though I am inclined to believe he did not desert RD as does DB14) and Carey was in fact tried and found guilty of desertion at court martial, though later cleared.

Not looking to judge anyone, 134 years later!

Lord Wolseley on the other hand never did beat about the bush, did he?

"Lord Wolseley felt the need to comment publicly regarding
court martial verdicts involving officer desertion. He was clearly appalled by the conduct
of too many of his subordinates and it seemed that some officers were treated too lightly
in his opinion. Without a doubt, these men of rank deserted to save themselves in
situations where other soldiers remained at their posts to fight bravely with many dying
for their Queen and country."
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyMon Dec 17, 2012 9:32 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
impi wrote:
DB have read TWOTS.

I did read it, it had no evidence given and Morris made up huge sections of the book, such as accouts by James Hammer ect, and.



Cheers

A good precis here, if you don't have TWOTS:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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tasker224

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc Empty
PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc EmptyTue Dec 18, 2012 6:11 pm

References/ allegations to Officer deserters/cowards, proved or disproven reads:

Captain Carey 98th Regt.

Lieutenant Avery NNC.

Lieutenant Holcroft NNC.

Lieutenants Higginson NNC.

Lieutenant Stephenson NNC.

Lieutenant Harward 80th Regt.

Lieutenant Adendorfff NNC ???

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Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc
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