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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 The Old Store and Road

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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 10:07 am

From Frank.

"Ive been meaning to do this for years, establish the old store site. Finally got round to doing it last weekend.
Its controversial as hell as there was an old trading post alongside the road/track many years ago. That area is now a clinic. But, that old store was different in shape and size to the attached photos. The original shop/boarding house was owned by a Mr Parr. The newer one by a Mr Lutins. Built on different areas. Whats quite key about this is that the road/track position has change over the years so people tend to think that Durnfords Donga is much further South than actual. That impinges on his retreat and subsequent defence points. My possible site is 250 metres North, more towards Popes position.
The attached are the two photos in question."

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Steve
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 10:38 am

Bonjour Frank and Steve,

I wonder what are the implications of your hypothesis about our knowledge on Pope's alleged perilous situation after the retreat ordered by Durnford...
In "England's sons" , Julian wrote the following comment:“'Pope's...bugler sounded 'Retire'”. (The Washing of the spears, p. 375). According to Morris the source of this comment was Hammer , account now untraceable, allegedly in the KCAL (E.S. p.52 n°78 Hamer)"
Cheers
Fred
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7578
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 11:55 am

I should add that the 'evidence' is not merely two photos. There are historical photos and maps that locate the road across the saddle and down towards the Nyogane Donga. The building on the right of the photo is actually an accomadation that housed at one point Rider Haggard.
And yes Fred it affects a great deal about the action along the donga and the rocky ridge, not least reducing the size of the battlefield.
Ive spent time at the Kcal trying to locate that quote from Hammer without success.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 12:10 pm

It seems to me that your hypothesis raises questions:
-on a combined retreat of Durnford and Pope (in connection with the alleged Hamer's testimony);
-on the reality of a "gap" between Durnford's mounted troops and Pope's position.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm

Frank,
You wrote, "it affects a great deal about the action along the donga and the rocky ridge".
Your comment is it also valid about Durnford's action at "Conical hill"?
Cheers
Fred
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 4:48 am

As a recap.
This the store history I posted a number of years ago.
While reading ‘Diary of an African Journey ‘by Rider Haggard I came across this paragraph:
‘Mr Parr, however, the owner of the store where we slept gave me a number of cartridge cases and the head of one of Durnfords rockets. He has another rocket dug out of the bank of a donga near the store, which is still unexploded.
The references intrigued me on a number of issues, where was the store, why would there be rockets there and who was Mr Parr, possible a relative of the more famous Henry Hallam Parr?

The last question first: Mr Charles Evelyn Parr was born in 1885 in Nottingham England, the son of G Parr of Cliff House, The Park, Nottingham. How and why he arrived in South Africa I haven’t been able to ascertain, but around 1901 at the age of 16 he became the manager of a store and hotel at iSandlwana owned by a Mrs Jean Flindt, a resident of Nqutu. Mrs Flindt held a 999 year lease over the property.
At some point Charles Parr joined the Zululand Mounted Rifles, I would speculate and say the influence of Mr Flindt had something to do with this. He served in the 1906 rebellion with the Zululand Mounted Rifles and was awarded the Natal Rebellion Medal with 1906 clasp.
Once the rebellion had abated Charles returned to the iSandlwana store but with a little more determination to build a future he sought to sublease from Mrs Flindt. This he managed to do after wading through the Government red tape in December 1907.
This would then answer the second question as to where the store was located, this circa 1910 photograph shows both the store and the hotel.The store in question no longer exists, I believe there are still signs of the foundation walls evident on the banks of the donga but comparing a then and now photograph the site is pretty identifiable.
That would then to a degree answer the last of the questions, how did the rockets end up in the donga. Three possible answers to that question, firstly they were dropped by a retreating warrior, second they were washed downstream in the occasional flash floods or thirdly they were dumped there when Durnfords men retired on the camp. Lt Harry Davis mentions that they did retrieve two boxes of rockets but had to dump them. Possibly the donga was the area they were dumped.

Mr Parr eventually moved on and died in 1953, still keeping store on a farm not to distant from Pietermaritzburg.

Mrs Flindt was overtaken by the desire of the Government of the day to create Native and Separate white areas, the forerunner to Apartheid, and lost her lease.
The store itself was demolished some time before 1933 and a second structure built slightly to the South by a Mr Lundin, this structure lasted until pulled down to make way for the Day Hospital facility presently on the site.
Mr Lundin himself lived on a homestead on the Western slopes of iSandlwana, around half way down the slope towards the Manzimyama Stream.
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 10:26 am

Frank Allewell wrote:

The last question first:  Mr Charles Evelyn Parr was born in 1885 in Nottingham England, the son of G Parr of Cliff House, The Park, Nottingham. How and why he arrived in South Africa I haven’t been able to ascertain,

Hi Frank

Could this be your Man?

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Andy
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1879graves

1879graves

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The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 10:30 am

Hi Frank

Another for your records

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Andy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 12:12 pm

Well done Andy, just confirm for me the date of the 'Johanesburg', cant decide if its 1900 or 1903. I have a document with again an indeterminate date, that looks like 1901 for his arrival, but 1903 would fit with his further service. Nice to fill in the gaps after he left iSandlwana, but what would be of equal interest is if he returned to Natal or left behind a child. I do have the evidence that a Charles Parr ran a farm stall in PMB. I also seem to recall that Brett knew of the family as well.


Cheers
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 12:35 pm

Hi Frank

'Johanesburg' 17th June 1903.

Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 3:05 pm

Thanks Andy.
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyMon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm

Frank
Two things for you to mull over.
First, Parr is described as having dug the rocket out of a donga near the store. This doesn't have to be Durnford's Donga. The donga in question could have been anything up to half a mile away - one of the headwaters of the Nyogane for instance, where a mule might have ended up and off-loaded its cases. And didn't Davies send two of his men to try and retrieve a mule loaded with rockets south of the Conical Koppie?
Secondly, and here I refer to sources quoted on pages 65-66 of Studies in the ZW vol. V, I agree with you about the route of the old track and where it crossed the donga but note that Davies wrote that when they retired to the donga they "found the Natal Carbineers, the Natal Police and the mounted infantry to our left, while to the left of them were the 2/24th [Pope/Dyer]" and Cochrane wrote that "Here a few mounted men, Carbineers, Natal Mounted Police &c reinforced our right". In other words the NNH was 'leapfrogged' to extend the line even further to the south in order to counter the right horn's southward encircling movement. This might, reasonably, have taken Durnford's defence line up to and beyond the traditional place where the track crossed the donga.
The first quotation reinforces your argument FOR the arrival of Durnford's men much further north than previously thought while the second quotation reinforces the traditional location of Durnford's men at the point before they retreated to camp. It would also suggest that further extension of this line would have made the defence of the donga impossibly thin and without weight in a frontal assault - hence the necessity for withdrawal to the camp to make the defence perimeter more compact.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyMon Jun 03, 2019 4:23 pm

Hi Julian
Your first point, yes it could have come from anywhere really. If the store was in the place Ive speculated on it would put it considerably closer to the koppie and arguably close to the point Davies rescued the rocket mule.
Thee positioning of the 'groups' at the donga is a whole other direction from the points I will be making regarding why Durnford chose to arrive back at camp at the road crossing. There are various speculative points connected with that thought depending where the road/donga intersection actually was.
Sorry for being abstract but you are aware of the reasoning. Suffice to say that I believe that the men asisting Durnfords force arrived in two distinctly seperate groups and at seperate times.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyMon Jun 03, 2019 4:34 pm

Yes, I agree, as per Granger's account on p. 65 of the above - Scott's group and Gardner/Bradstreet's group.
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