Latest topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 18, 2024 11:11 am by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked Camp![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 17, 2024 4:33 pm by Julian Whybra » Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diary![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:53 pm by 1879graves » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves » 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman » Baron Von Steitencron![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra » Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - Memorial![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th » Writing advice![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra » South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment ![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne » Bassage Diary![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Prior to Sihayo's Kraal ![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th » British Fort Locations![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th » Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper » Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879 » Hamilton Browne's birthday![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra » Zulu "Corps"![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes » Army Pay Department Personnel![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra » Ntshingwayo birth date![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes » Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra » Smith's Store/Hotel![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. ![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Shaka iLembe![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84 » Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment ![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman » Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra » Fairlie's Native Police![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes |
July 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | | | | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked Camp![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
| | The Old Store and Road | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: The Old Store and Road Thu May 23, 2019 10:07 am | |
| From Frank. "Ive been meaning to do this for years, establish the old store site. Finally got round to doing it last weekend. Its controversial as hell as there was an old trading post alongside the road/track many years ago. That area is now a clinic. But, that old store was different in shape and size to the attached photos. The original shop/boarding house was owned by a Mr Parr. The newer one by a Mr Lutins. Built on different areas. Whats quite key about this is that the road/track position has change over the years so people tend to think that Durnfords Donga is much further South than actual. That impinges on his retreat and subsequent defence points. My possible site is 250 metres North, more towards Popes position. The attached are the two photos in question." [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ymob
![ymob](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/237-12.png)
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Thu May 23, 2019 10:38 am | |
| Bonjour Frank and Steve,
I wonder what are the implications of your hypothesis about our knowledge on Pope's alleged perilous situation after the retreat ordered by Durnford... In "England's sons" , Julian wrote the following comment:“'Pope's...bugler sounded 'Retire'”. (The Washing of the spears, p. 375). According to Morris the source of this comment was Hammer , account now untraceable, allegedly in the KCAL (E.S. p.52 n°78 Hamer)" Cheers Fred |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Thu May 23, 2019 11:55 am | |
| I should add that the 'evidence' is not merely two photos. There are historical photos and maps that locate the road across the saddle and down towards the Nyogane Donga. The building on the right of the photo is actually an accomadation that housed at one point Rider Haggard. And yes Fred it affects a great deal about the action along the donga and the rocky ridge, not least reducing the size of the battlefield. Ive spent time at the Kcal trying to locate that quote from Hammer without success. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ymob
![ymob](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/237-12.png)
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Thu May 23, 2019 12:10 pm | |
| It seems to me that your hypothesis raises questions: -on a combined retreat of Durnford and Pope (in connection with the alleged Hamer's testimony); -on the reality of a "gap" between Durnford's mounted troops and Pope's position. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ymob
![ymob](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/237-12.png)
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm | |
| Frank, You wrote, "it affects a great deal about the action along the donga and the rocky ridge". Your comment is it also valid about Durnford's action at "Conical hill"? Cheers Fred |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Fri May 24, 2019 4:48 am | |
| As a recap. This the store history I posted a number of years ago. While reading ‘Diary of an African Journey ‘by Rider Haggard I came across this paragraph: ‘Mr Parr, however, the owner of the store where we slept gave me a number of cartridge cases and the head of one of Durnfords rockets. He has another rocket dug out of the bank of a donga near the store, which is still unexploded. The references intrigued me on a number of issues, where was the store, why would there be rockets there and who was Mr Parr, possible a relative of the more famous Henry Hallam Parr?
The last question first: Mr Charles Evelyn Parr was born in 1885 in Nottingham England, the son of G Parr of Cliff House, The Park, Nottingham. How and why he arrived in South Africa I haven’t been able to ascertain, but around 1901 at the age of 16 he became the manager of a store and hotel at iSandlwana owned by a Mrs Jean Flindt, a resident of Nqutu. Mrs Flindt held a 999 year lease over the property. At some point Charles Parr joined the Zululand Mounted Rifles, I would speculate and say the influence of Mr Flindt had something to do with this. He served in the 1906 rebellion with the Zululand Mounted Rifles and was awarded the Natal Rebellion Medal with 1906 clasp. Once the rebellion had abated Charles returned to the iSandlwana store but with a little more determination to build a future he sought to sublease from Mrs Flindt. This he managed to do after wading through the Government red tape in December 1907. This would then answer the second question as to where the store was located, this circa 1910 photograph shows both the store and the hotel.The store in question no longer exists, I believe there are still signs of the foundation walls evident on the banks of the donga but comparing a then and now photograph the site is pretty identifiable. That would then to a degree answer the last of the questions, how did the rockets end up in the donga. Three possible answers to that question, firstly they were dropped by a retreating warrior, second they were washed downstream in the occasional flash floods or thirdly they were dumped there when Durnfords men retired on the camp. Lt Harry Davis mentions that they did retrieve two boxes of rockets but had to dump them. Possibly the donga was the area they were dumped.
Mr Parr eventually moved on and died in 1953, still keeping store on a farm not to distant from Pietermaritzburg.
Mrs Flindt was overtaken by the desire of the Government of the day to create Native and Separate white areas, the forerunner to Apartheid, and lost her lease. The store itself was demolished some time before 1933 and a second structure built slightly to the South by a Mr Lundin, this structure lasted until pulled down to make way for the Day Hospital facility presently on the site. Mr Lundin himself lived on a homestead on the Western slopes of iSandlwana, around half way down the slope towards the Manzimyama Stream.
|
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | 1879graves
![1879graves](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/15-99.jpg)
Posts : 3379 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Fri May 24, 2019 10:26 am | |
| - Frank Allewell wrote:
The last question first: Mr Charles Evelyn Parr was born in 1885 in Nottingham England, the son of G Parr of Cliff House, The Park, Nottingham. How and why he arrived in South Africa I haven’t been able to ascertain, Hi Frank Could this be your Man? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Andy |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | 1879graves
![1879graves](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/15-99.jpg)
Posts : 3379 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Fri May 24, 2019 10:30 am | |
| |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Fri May 24, 2019 12:12 pm | |
| Well done Andy, just confirm for me the date of the 'Johanesburg', cant decide if its 1900 or 1903. I have a document with again an indeterminate date, that looks like 1901 for his arrival, but 1903 would fit with his further service. Nice to fill in the gaps after he left iSandlwana, but what would be of equal interest is if he returned to Natal or left behind a child. I do have the evidence that a Charles Parr ran a farm stall in PMB. I also seem to recall that Brett knew of the family as well.
Cheers |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | 1879graves
![1879graves](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/15-99.jpg)
Posts : 3379 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Fri May 24, 2019 12:35 pm | |
| Hi Frank 'Johanesburg' 17th June 1903. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Fri May 24, 2019 3:05 pm | |
| |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm | |
| Frank Two things for you to mull over. First, Parr is described as having dug the rocket out of a donga near the store. This doesn't have to be Durnford's Donga. The donga in question could have been anything up to half a mile away - one of the headwaters of the Nyogane for instance, where a mule might have ended up and off-loaded its cases. And didn't Davies send two of his men to try and retrieve a mule loaded with rockets south of the Conical Koppie? Secondly, and here I refer to sources quoted on pages 65-66 of Studies in the ZW vol. V, I agree with you about the route of the old track and where it crossed the donga but note that Davies wrote that when they retired to the donga they "found the Natal Carbineers, the Natal Police and the mounted infantry to our left, while to the left of them were the 2/24th [Pope/Dyer]" and Cochrane wrote that "Here a few mounted men, Carbineers, Natal Mounted Police &c reinforced our right". In other words the NNH was 'leapfrogged' to extend the line even further to the south in order to counter the right horn's southward encircling movement. This might, reasonably, have taken Durnford's defence line up to and beyond the traditional place where the track crossed the donga. The first quotation reinforces your argument FOR the arrival of Durnford's men much further north than previously thought while the second quotation reinforces the traditional location of Durnford's men at the point before they retreated to camp. It would also suggest that further extension of this line would have made the defence of the donga impossibly thin and without weight in a frontal assault - hence the necessity for withdrawal to the camp to make the defence perimeter more compact. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Frank Allewell
![Frank Allewell](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/32-19.jpg)
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:23 pm | |
| Hi Julian Your first point, yes it could have come from anywhere really. If the store was in the place Ive speculated on it would put it considerably closer to the koppie and arguably close to the point Davies rescued the rocket mule. Thee positioning of the 'groups' at the donga is a whole other direction from the points I will be making regarding why Durnford chose to arrive back at camp at the road crossing. There are various speculative points connected with that thought depending where the road/donga intersection actually was. Sorry for being abstract but you are aware of the reasoning. Suffice to say that I believe that the men asisting Durnfords force arrived in two distinctly seperate groups and at seperate times. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![The Old Store and Road Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: The Old Store and Road Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:34 pm | |
| Yes, I agree, as per Granger's account on p. 65 of the above - Scott's group and Gardner/Bradstreet's group. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | | The Old Store and Road | |
|
Similar topics | ![+](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |