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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana

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Simonsole



Posts : 9
Join date : 2020-06-14

Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 2:28 pm

Thanks for letting me join. We, Bandoola Productions, are making a feature documentary about Zulu Wars No Hillside without a Grave. We have spent a some months researching, I have visited Isandlwana and Rorke Drift etc but there are some things I am bit confused about. I wonder if anyone can help.

First the Ground. Where exactly do we think Pullheine had his tent from say 10 am. I read that he might have remained in his battalion area or he might have moved to the main headquarters. In either case, I am trying to exactly pin point the location on google earth pro. I feel this matters since it determines what he could see and not see, especially while he talked with Durnford.

The reason is to resolve the second matter which is what you can see from where. So it seems clear that as you look north from the area of the camp, you can see to a near horizon say about 1000 yards. There is then a section of dead ground of say 2000 into which you could not see, then the ground rises to the Nyoni ridge which of course you could see from the camp.

Various companies at various times between 8am and 11 am were sent up there to counter eg the right horn going past and I assume they were sent to first crest ie not all the way up on to the Nyoni Ridge. My confusion is that if they only went in effect to the edge of the camp they would not have seen much. The right horn was surely moving behind the Nyoni Ridge and not below it. This from Viewshed on Google Earth pro  illustrates the issue. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

We can have a whole other dicusssion about view shed and its value. It rounds off terrain, Africa elevation data is likely not the best but this is still a useful tool. Also have used the profile of lines tool.

But all this depends on where you put Puhlheine.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 4:29 pm

Simonsole,

I take it you mean Pulleine, rather than the two variations given above?

JY
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 4:38 pm

Pulleine appears to have remained in his tent behind the 1st battalion tents rather than engage in a temporary move to the HQ tent. As to determining what he would have seen from there precisely you will have to remember that he would have had a sea of tents interrupting his view to the north, north-east, and east. If he wanted a clear view he would have had to walk to the edge of the parade ground in front of the camp.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 4:58 pm

As the General had left, along with most of his staff officers his cooking staff/chef went with ( we know Chelmsford had breakfast buried away near Silutshane. That being said PULLEINE had breakfast along with Durnford so I would put Pulleine at that time in his own mess area. However at a later point there is testimony that Durnford went looking for PULLEINE so raising the point that he could have been at the Generals tent area.
In terms of view from PULLEINES mess area the view would be incredibly obscured by the camp itself even though his mess hall would have been fairly high up the slope, those bell tents were pretty damned high.
The same would apply from the Generals mess area. SO to a degree its not about the ground condition but more the actual conditions.
I really do believe you should spend more time chatting to Paul, Im assuming he has been advising you. Its an assumption that the right horn was seen, and only that.
The companys sent to the ridge were only sent ONCE, around 11 as you point out. The only other troops on the plateau were the piquets, and NNC ETC.
The rather large impi, commonly assumed to be the right horn, was seen from the camp area by Chard round ten oclock and lso by Charlie Pope, as noted in his diary. To be see from the camp they could not have been to far back on the ridge but more on the ridge line itself. That in it self rises a problem because it put that impi between the piquets and the camp. That has gone unmentioned.
Regards

Frank
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 5:08 pm

Dubious though as none of the picquets mention being cut off (I think they would, wouldn't they?) and none mention withdrawing for such a reason (and they also would, wouldn't they?)
Surely a case why didn't the dog bark, Watson?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 7:37 pm

Barking up the wrong tree is always a possibility. But three at least sightings of a large impi from the camp area moving from East to West so they were either on the ridge line or South of the ridge. Either way between the camp and the NNC. They could have possibly come from the Ngwebini south towards the camp and come into view to the East of Mbekwini then around the south of it, and visible from the camp before turning North again.
All part of the enigma
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Simonsole



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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 8:23 pm

John Young wrote:
Simonsole,

I take it you mean Pulleine, rather than the two variations given above?

JY

Yes. Sorry I thought I had corrected them all.
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Simonsole



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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 8:51 pm

Thanks everyone. All really helpful. Some things I am wrong about and some good to know I am not alone in my confusion.

I have certainly arrived at the assumption/deduction/conclusion it was the right horn which everyone saw am 22nd but as you say it is problematic. You have probably worked all this out but my analysis route was: how else could the right horn get there in time unless it set off before the others. Therefore, I am sympathetic to the Mike Snooks theory that it was part of battle pre moves. But if it was so well pre positioned why did it then more or less miss the battle and head to Rorke's Drift to remedy the omission. Also, why did they take such a poor and exposed route ie in full viz of the camp. Zulus were good at hidden movement and there was plenty of dead ground behind the ridge they could have used so why didn't they. (see viewshed from google earth) Finally, if this was a pre move for an attack on the 23rd why move so early on the 22nd. It would have been early enough to have moved later in the day.

So it could be that there was simply not room for them at the Ngwebini Valley so they were moved to make space. Could be there was confusion and indeed did not one regiment get separated from the other two. So it could be we are trying to rationalise muddle. And if it was not the right horn who was it and why did two credible people separately over report something.

I am less troubled by the fact the Veddettes did not see them. Seems to me that they were swirling around, some withdrew to report. Maybe they were reported but the fact of it being a larger group has been lost or overlooked.

Pure speculation on my part........could it be that Zulu commanders wanted the right horn to in effect cut or at least threaten the rear of the camp in advance of their parly with the British directed by Cetshwayo. My understanding is Zulu commanders met the night of the 21st but could not agree exactly how and who to do the parly. Might a Zulu Commanders have acted on their own initiative. Much better to parly with the Brits while they are cut off, than not.

One other things troubles me. I have not dug around the primary sources of Charlie Raw and his finding of the Army, at I think about 11 am maybe a bit later. Durnford arrived at the camp at about 10 presumably there was some delay while Charlie Raw was briefed etc> but he seems to have gone very fast to the right place. OK saw some cattle and followed them but that only really covers the last few hundred yards. And sure he was sent up to resolve the confusion but there was lots of confusion closer to camp than where The Zulu Army was. I am curious that Charlie Raw seems to have got from the camp more or less straight to discovering The Zulu Army. I am not sure what to say about these doubts. I am too new to this to question if Charlie really did find the Army or if they found him. Might he have found part of a screening force which was roused and chased him as a screening force component would, and the main Army then followed. Not sure. Not wanting to hang my hat on that but still curious at how fast Charlie Raw manages to discover The Zulu Army.

Re Paul ( assume you mean Garner). Yes Paul has been a big help in all this and our discussion is on going...but this is a great forum. Paul inspired me to this project in the first place.
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyMon Jun 15, 2020 11:47 pm

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https://www.1879zuluwar.com
90th

90th

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PostSubject: Questions Of Time and place at Isandlwana    Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyTue Jun 16, 2020 4:44 am

Hi Simonsole
I've sent you a Pvt Msge , but you may not be able to access it for a few more days ? .
90th Very Happy
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyTue Jun 16, 2020 7:44 am

Simonsole,

Please drop me an e-mail.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyTue Jun 16, 2020 11:37 am

Simon
With all due respect and humility If you about to spend a significant amount of money and put your reputation on the line you need to broaden your research beyond the Tour Guide approach from Paul and the much maligned and biassed missive from the Colonel, both wonderfully gentlemen that they are.
This is probably the advice that Cy Enfield and Stanley Baker should have been given.
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Simonsole



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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 17, 2020 12:19 am

Frank.

Have no fear!!

I have been looking into this for years I have read most of the published works, Ian Knight, Saul David, Washing of the Spear (when I was younger) Mike Snooks and much much much else. Our last book count was 24. The Museum at Brecon as been most helpful. I attach a snap shot. I am sure people will have views on each of them. Personally, I learned from all of them but of course they are nearly all secondary sources. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Do tell us what we are missed. I


We have steered clear of the Durnford controversy although I blogged on it. Not one word of the script is ours, it all comes from original sources so the story will be told by those who were there, or almost there. We are even getting the Zulu parts retranslated to ensure it is faithful. Re Mike Snooks. I met Mike at some length and have read his book. Certainly he is an advocate for his regiment but openly so. I do think he has done a thorough job of considering the time, space and possibilities. Some historians may not but I like how he has taken his analysis beyond what it is possible to know and prove. As has Ron Lock. There are however, a range of conclusions one could reasonably come to.

I agree that a battlefield Guides narrative has to carry the audience but I was taken around by Paul with the senior American Military academic and we both agreed Pauls narrative is thorough well evidenced and convincing.

I have spent more time since I last wrote on the thorny time and space problem of Isandlwana. In the end I do not have to resolve in a few days what this group has clearly grappled with for years. We will cover the battle quite briefly in our film and just want to have some accurate maps. The Google Earth Exercise is most helpful and allows the reading of all the narratives whilst fully geolocated which is not really possible in a text book.

More and more I think what people saw on the am 22nd were pre moves for an attack on the 23rd and that quite possibly, once it was known Lord Chelmsford had left, it was decided to attack the camp not the 22nd. I wonder what time that was. It might it have been 6 am, 7 am. but not as late at 11am.

I am a bit obsessed with geolocating readers of military history. For my Battle of Imphal Project I have over 2000 Google KML places. For Zulu wars I have about 20. I will investigate how these can be shared in case there are other geolocation obsessives out there. Tips gratefully received.

I will put a couple of essays I have written on the essay site. right now they are on Medium.

best to all and thanks for help.

Simon
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 17, 2020 9:31 am

With all due respect, your bookshelf contains very little on Isandhlwana itself. Morris is highly inaccurate and useless for your purposes and Saul David is too general in nature to be of use to you. Personally I like Snook's book but criticism has been levelled at its too-passionate 'defence of the regiment' approach. The one work any serious historian would expect to see, which is THE work on the AZW, is Jackson's Hill of the Sphinx or the JSAHR 'Isandhlwana - The Sources Re-examined' essays on which it is based. The former is difficult to obtain and costly but the essays are easy to obtain.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 17, 2020 2:06 pm

Interesting thing about the EA Ritter is his grandson runs a military memorabilia shop in Howick and I met his grand daughter in Cape Town, its a small world.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 17, 2020 2:44 pm

Simon,

I have to concur with Julian, and I think that Jackson’s maps showing the development of the battle would be most beneficial to your project.

Regards,

JY
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Simonsole



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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 17, 2020 2:49 pm

thanks John and Julain. As you say Jackson is in short supply. only 1000 printed? in case anyone wants to lend or sell their copy......love to hear from you.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 17, 2020 3:09 pm

Simon,

I have a spare set of the original essays, but the maps in Hill of the Sphinx are far superior. So I would recommend try to secure a copy of that, I’d volunteer mine but at the present time I am using it for an ongoing project.

JY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 17, 2020 4:01 pm

I have a spare i would be happy to sell.
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BigRIJoe



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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 10:49 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
I have a spare i would be happy to sell.


I'd be interested in at least hearing a price
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana   Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 12:38 pm

It was sold for 110 GBP
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