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 Militaria Sale

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3 posters
AuthorMessage
milner




Posts : 10
Join date : 2014-06-27
Age : 74
Location : Thirsk,North Yorkshire

Militaria Sale Empty
PostSubject: Militaria Sale   Militaria Sale EmptyThu Aug 13, 2020 5:11 pm

This may be of interest to members

Description:
19th C Zulu hardwood staff set with unmarked silver presentation plaque engraved 'Zulu Ceremonial Dance Staff Taken From The Kraal Of Prince Dabulmanzi by Col. R. W. P. Curzon Howe Ulundi 1879' (overall length 158cm)
Estimate:
£1000 - £1500

Ryedale Auctioneers this Sunday 16th at 11.00am Lot No 70.

Auction online at saleroom.com

Regards Tony
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milner




Posts : 10
Join date : 2014-06-27
Age : 74
Location : Thirsk,North Yorkshire

Militaria Sale Empty
PostSubject: Re: Militaria Sale   Militaria Sale EmptyMon Aug 17, 2020 5:17 pm

Above item unsold,will probably in a later auction.

Regards Tony
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90th

90th


Posts : 10882
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Militaria Sale    Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 12:52 am

I doubt it I believe it's a FAKE ! , certainly wouldn't get me ! , no-one by that name was in the AZW , and Dabulamanzi's Kraal(s) weren't near Ulundi !!.
90th Shocked Shocked
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Militaria Sale   Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 9:22 am

In 1838, Curzon-Howe joined the British Army and rose through the ranks as a Major General in 1869, a Lieutenant General in 1877 and a General in 1880. He fought in the Kaffir War and was present at the Siege of Delhi, for which he was appointed a CB in 1858. In 1876, Curzon inherited his elder brother's titles. He was appointed Honorary Colonel of the Prince Albert's Own Leicestershire Yeomanry Cavalry in 1876 on the death of his brother (Lt.Col. Commandant PAOLYC [1870–79] George, 2nd Earl Howe), Colonel of the 94th and 17th Regiment of Foot in 1879 and Colonel of the 2nd Life Guards in 1890. In 1897, he was appointed a GCVO for his services as Lord Lieutenant of Leicestershire, a post he held between 1888 and 1900.The regiment embarked for South Africa in spring 1879 and saw action at the Battle of Ulundi in July 1879 during the Anglo-Zulu War.[9] The regiment marched into the Transvaal and took part in the successful attack on Sekukuni's stronghold on 28 November 1879 during the Basuto Gun War.[9] Two Victoria Crosses were awarded to members of the regiment for their conduct during this action.[23]

The regiment remained in South Africa with its eight companies widely distributed throughout the Transvaal, garrisons being established in Pretoria (E and G companies), Lydenburg (A and F companies), Wakkerstroom (C company), Marabastad (B company), Standerton (H company) and Newcastle in northern Natal (D company). It was during the re-concentration of the companies, in response to outbreaks of civil disorder by the Boers, that A and F companies were attacked at Battle of Bronkhorstspruit in December 1880 in the opening clash of the First Boer War: the two companies saw 156 of their soldiers killed or wounded, with the rest taken prisoner.[24] The other six companies of the regiment spent the war being besieged by the Boers: C, D and H in Standerton, E and G in Pretoria, B in Marabastad, and a small detachment of 50 men in Lydenburg.[25]

So Colonel Curzon Howes regiment, the 94th ,were in action at Ulundi even though the were commanded by lt. Col Malthus.

Whilst I agree with 90th that Dabulamanzi's kraal was down towards the coast he did spend a lot of time at Ondini, even after the war in the fighting with Zibhebhu ka Maphitha. So the 'possibility would exist that the staff was taken from Ulundi and presented to the regiments Colonel in Chief.

There is a further possibility that when the 94th retired to the coast to link up with the coastal division Gingindhlvu was 'visited' and items were taken.

Just a couple of possibilities to ponder

Cheers
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90th

90th


Posts : 10882
Join date : 2009-04-07
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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Militaria Sale    Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 3:45 pm

Hi Frank
Your post is quite confusing , Col Drury Curzon- Lowe ( not Howe ) was in command of the 17th Lancers in 1879 in Sth Africa , as I mentioned there was no-one named Curzon - Howe on service in Sth Africa during the the AZW of 79 , at least according to Mac & Shad . To me it smacks of someone trying to fake a battlefield pick up and they've got the names confused , as I think you may have done ? .
90th Very Happy Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Militaria Sale   Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:25 pm

Evening Gary. Curzon Howe probably wasnt in SA at the time but he was honory colonel of the various regiments. Its an honary title much as most of the royal family have honory titles. In fact Captain Tom is now honory Colonel of his old regiment now. Pretty sure Princess Ann is also honary Colonel , of an Australian regiment I believe. My point, you seemed to have missed was that its plausible that he was presented with the memento. Its merely an observation that the possibility does exist, unless of course there is Made in China sticker on the bottom. Very Happy
Names arent mixed up at all the Curzon Howe family is rather famous in the UK, He was Lord Lieutenant of Leicester. He did incidently serve in SA during the Eastern Cape wars.
Google him.
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90th

90th


Posts : 10882
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PostSubject: Militaria Sale    Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:39 pm

Hi Frank
Alarm bells , red flags , or whatever you want to call it to me , if , as you say ,  it was presented to him , why would he put his OWN name on it ( please don't reply so he'd know it was his , and others would know who it belonged to Joker )  , wouldn't it make more sense to add the name of the person who gave it to him ? , as surely this person would be a high ranking Officer as well one would think ? , certainly doubt it'd presented to him by anyone less than an officer ? , as I mentioned he isn't mentioned in Mac & Shad , there have been many fakes over the years , you don't need a ' made in china sticker'  attached to realise this , JY has seen his fair share of fake Militaria over the years , there are some fakes you wouldn't believe on ebay , these from blood river !! , I'm laughing so much I'm hitting the wrong keys , if you feel like parting with some hard earned Rands , good luck , but I'd suggest you don't ! hahahahaha. Let's not forget what the listing actually states .
Description:
19th C Zulu hardwood staff set with unmarked silver presentation plaque engraved 'Zulu Ceremonial Dance Staff Taken From The Kraal Of Prince Dabulmanzi by Col. R. W. P. Curzon Howe Ulundi 1879' (overall length 158cm) Dabulamanzi didn't have a kraal at Ulundi ! , spending time there as you said is not the same as him having a kraal there , and the fact that it reads taken from the Kraal by Curzon - Howe ! , who wasn't even in the Campaign , can't really see how you think it's genuine , if it was ' given ' to him as you suggest it wouldn't say '' Taken '' by Curzon - Howe . Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Cheers Mate
90th Very Happy Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Militaria Sale   Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:56 pm

I fully agree, wouldnt touch it, however its interesting to make the connections. Theres no real reason why he should be in Mac and shad, I doubt he was in SA at the time, most probably had his feet up in his club in London. Hand carving artifacts for a hobby Very Happy
At the current exchange rates theres not a cat in hells chance i would buy anything outside of the Cape. Speaking of which, prohibition is now over and my bar is restocked as is my wifes fag cupboard. Stay safe mate I see the infection rate is dropping in Victoria.
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90th

90th


Posts : 10882
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PostSubject: Militaria Sale    Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:07 pm

Hi Frank
Sorry mate , no connections whatsoever , out and out fake , every officer who was in Zululand is in Mac & Shad , it lists their individual service in the campaign , ( not only those who died there ) if he was in Zululand you'd expect him to be mentioned , and I can tell you I've read a lot on that Campaign ....and I've never heard of him , don't know anyone who has in AZW circles , this was offered up previously and didn't sell , I wonder why ? , to me they've tried a cheap shot with Google ...and came up with with the wrong ' Curzon ' they needed Lowe not Howe ! , seems obvious to me , there's the connection ...none . He would've been a pretty switched on chap sitting in London carving out artifacts for a 6 mth campaign HAHAHAHAHAHAHA . Yes our lowest case number in a month , glad you got the drink and fags back in order . You to stay safe , I hear it's out of control over there , but they aren't keen on really saying so ? .
90th Salute Salute
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90th

90th


Posts : 10882
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Militaria Sale    Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:35 pm

Hi Frank
Have sent you an email with some other fakes from ebay , you should get a laugh out of them .
90th Joker Joker
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Militaria Sale   Militaria Sale EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 pm

Good laugh indeed
Cheers mate. Stay safe, that goes for all the forum members
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