WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Dawn:“Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Laagering of Wagons at iSandlwana and Laager Commandants
Seniority after the battle EmptyYesterday at 4:03 pm by Julian Whybra

» What if Dartnell had returned?
Seniority after the battle EmptyYesterday at 2:19 pm by Drummer Boy 14

» Private Frederick Butler Mounted Infantry
Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 19, 2021 7:24 pm by 1879graves

» 2110 Pte T, McCULLOCH 91st Foot
Seniority after the battle EmptySun Oct 17, 2021 4:16 pm by gardner1879

» Hidden Ground at Isandlwana
Seniority after the battle EmptySun Oct 17, 2021 1:33 pm by Frank Allewell

» FIND-A-GRAVE WEBSITE
Seniority after the battle EmptySun Oct 17, 2021 12:29 pm by Muhlenbeck

» Lee Stevenson Books?
Seniority after the battle EmptyFri Oct 15, 2021 4:00 pm by Henry Martini

» New Member - Old Questions?
Seniority after the battle EmptyFri Oct 15, 2021 8:53 am by peter@zuluwars

» Pipe Major Walter Duncan
Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Oct 14, 2021 2:48 pm by majorduncan

» Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift
Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Oct 14, 2021 5:15 am by Frank Allewell

» Seniority after the battle
Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Oct 14, 2021 1:45 am by 90th

» Removed offer declined
Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 6:39 pm by Flintlock

» Task Organization for Sihayo Homestead Strike Force
Seniority after the battle EmptySat Oct 09, 2021 3:06 pm by WeekendWarrior

» WTB Original early type long Cocking Indicator for MkII Martini-Henry
Seniority after the battle EmptyFri Oct 08, 2021 6:52 pm by Stand to

» I am a happy boy!
Seniority after the battle EmptySun Oct 03, 2021 2:40 pm by Bromhead1879

» Looking for anyone that makes an correct Overseas Service Helmet
Seniority after the battle EmptySun Oct 03, 2021 2:54 am by BigPaulie

» Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene
Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 12:52 pm by gardner1879

» Could it have been an even bigger disaster?
Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 7:09 am by Frank Allewell

» Display fixings
Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 3:35 am by 90th

» New Members Welcome.
Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 3:33 am by 90th

» The Horsley Familey
Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 8:42 am by Phillipp

» Best Zulu wars documentary full.
Seniority after the battle EmptyMon Sep 20, 2021 8:06 am by gardner1879

» Bt. Major. Harvey, C.L. 71st L.I.
Seniority after the battle EmptyFri Sep 17, 2021 7:28 pm by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant Thomas Leigh Hare, 24th
Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Sep 16, 2021 6:16 am by 90th

» 2nd Lieutenant Thomas Leigh Hare, 24th - Sword
Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Sep 14, 2021 4:59 pm by Brin

» Henry William Longcast, Interpreter.
Seniority after the battle EmptyMon Sep 13, 2021 8:35 pm by Trev

» Zulu Dinner Event 30th October
Seniority after the battle EmptyMon Sep 13, 2021 11:48 am by Julian Whybra

» Matabele Wars
Seniority after the battle EmptyMon Sep 13, 2021 7:57 am by Frank Allewell

» Alexandra Mounted Rifles, full biographical details
Seniority after the battle EmptySat Sep 11, 2021 8:38 am by bazley@mweb.co.za

» Rorke's Drift defenders.
Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Sep 09, 2021 11:10 pm by Spudee

» Murray Charles Wyndham C.B
Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Sep 08, 2021 6:49 am by Frank Allewell

» Brevet Major. Henry Spalding of Rorke's Drift and Information for Columns
Seniority after the battle EmptyMon Sep 06, 2021 7:17 pm by 1879graves

» Lt. of Orderlies A. Hall AHC KIA Isandlwana
Seniority after the battle EmptySun Sep 05, 2021 11:22 pm by ADMIN

» Who had a rifle?
Seniority after the battle EmptySun Sep 05, 2021 3:49 pm by gardner1879

» Essential Research
Seniority after the battle EmptyFri Sep 03, 2021 3:52 pm by Danny1960

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Anglo-Zulu war: Walking the battlefield of Ulundi
Top posters
90th
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
littlehand
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
ADMIN
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
1879graves
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
rusteze
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
John
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Frank Allewell
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
gardner1879
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
90th
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
John Young
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
BigPaulie
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Stand to
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
aussie inkosi
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
barry
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
peter@zuluwars
Seniority after the battle Bar_leftSeniority after the battle BarSeniority after the battle Bar_right 
Most active topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.1
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
henry williams Isandlwana spalding Woolfryes George zulu Franklin Mounted james Police Natal payne horse martini taylor Durnford harford carbineers 24th smith drift Prince melvill Russell john
 

 Seniority after the battle

Go down 
5 posters
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Oct 07, 2021 12:08 pm

Interesting issue. After the stategic withdrawl over the Fugitives Drift Captain Gardner, whilst the junior to Captain Essex, seems to have taken control by sending warnings of to RD etc. Surely that was Essex duty? Or did Essex order Gardner to do so. Maybe Gardner was the only one with dry paper? Later Gardner seems to have drifted away from Helpmakaar without consultation with Essex? If indeed Essex did assume control, and that seems to be the case from the statements of other survivors, why is it not mentioned that Essex gave Gardner the nod to ride of?
Is there a case to be made that Gardner did not seak permission from his senior officer?
Sorry Kate, just thoughts.
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879

Posts : 216
Join date : 2021-01-04

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyFri Oct 08, 2021 5:50 pm

Now, now Mr Allewell, less of your spleen.
K Wink
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2305
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyFri Oct 08, 2021 6:12 pm

Wasn’t Alan Frank’s Troop commander when he was in the “Cherrypickers”?

Joker Joker Joker
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptySat Oct 09, 2021 4:54 am

Ah yes remember him well, had a habit of jumping on his horse in the middle of the night and riding of into the woods. scratch Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879

Posts : 216
Join date : 2021-01-04

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptySat Oct 09, 2021 6:49 am

Don't you mean riding off to find Wood's?
K Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptySat Oct 09, 2021 7:31 am

It was a gentle pun Kate. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Simonsole



Posts : 16
Join date : 2020-06-14

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 8:01 am

As ever I defer and to write about Gardner with Kate on the thread is terrifying!! I think the clue is that Gardner was a staff officer to the commander whereas Essex was a transport officer with technical responsibilities. Thus Gardner would not have cared about seniority in this moment but by taking the lead would have been carrying on his core duty to lubricate the command chain by passing information. I cannot speak with authority about then but now it would be quite normal for a junior staff officer of a senior headquarters to be firing off instructions to his seniors in rank, in theory in 'the name of his commander' naturally. Also, there is now, and probably was then, a sort of snobbery about logistic/technical officers being technicians and thus carrying less authority to direct fighting matters.
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2305
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 9:45 am

Simon,

Both Alan Gardner & Edward Essex had passed through the Staff College, Camberley.  Gardner in December, 1872, and Essex in December, 1877.

Both were selected to serve as “Special Service Officers” in Southern Africa.

Essex had some knowledge of the Natal/Zulu border having served in Natal with the 75th Regiment, although he was on home leave at the time of the Langalibalele Uprising in 1873.  I suspect this local knowledge might have had some influence on the role to which he was appointed.

Essex had no useful experience as to the duties of being the Transport Officer of No. 3 Column, the role was equally unfamiliar to his young subordinate, Lieutenant Horace Smith-Dorrien of the 95th.

As to Gardner, he was also initially appointed to the role of the Sub-Director of Transport in Pietermaritzburg.  It would not be until 3rd January, 1879, that he was appointed to Glyn’s No. 3 Column to perform General Staff Duties.

Who better than a former artillery officer, now dashing hussar, to be Glyn’s general dogsbody, especially in the absence of regular cavalry?

JY
Back to top Go down
Simonsole



Posts : 16
Join date : 2020-06-14

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 11:53 am

John. Great points. So the snobbery aspect might apply less if both went to Staff College etc but still Gardner would have secured the more prestigious post and would have felt more justified taking the lead. In the modern Army there is a very strong cultural hierarchy between fighters and supporters, (including those from combat arms) who happen to be in supporter ie logistic roles.

Also, I am not familiar with the detail of what he sent but I think it makes a difference if he was passing information, than if he was giving instructions.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 1:43 pm

Simon I would refer you to Bromhead and Chard.
Back to top Go down
Simonsole



Posts : 16
Join date : 2020-06-14

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 2:08 pm

Hi Frank and good point. Yes I did think of Bromhead and Chard as I was writing but I think their situation was different. First Major (Spalding??) had made a specific effort to pre designate the commander in light of his rather odd decision to go back to Helpmekaar at that moment. This might have been his sheepishness about going back or it might have been because he did not trust Bromhead. But more relevant was neither was in a staff position. Given both were in command roles and had troops under command it would be more normal to resolve that conflict formally and once the Seniority List came out there was only one outcome. Also, Royal Engineers, did occasionally rise to command positions over combat troops.

I am postulating that it was the nature of their staff roles ( and not their seniority) which determined their relative influence and made it natural that Gardner would lead despite being actually junior. He had the smart staff position and the ear of General, Essex being transport officer; a role that got him on the campaign but perhaps not one the ambitious young staff officer would have sought out.

Kate raises a good point but I think is a plausible explanation. Interested to hear others.
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879

Posts : 216
Join date : 2021-01-04

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyTue Oct 12, 2021 5:54 pm

Folks
In relation to who let Alan go.
I've not mentioned who in my book as my prime concern was clearing Alan's name by looking at his relationship with Essex. A man whom I believe was one of the main instigators in attempting to destroy his reputation.
But I have written when he went. and the reason for the exclusion was that the decision as to whether Alan  could have gone or not was not down to  Essex in the first place.

If you read Alan's letters he did not leave Helpmakaar till after the 2 companies (D and G 1/24th)under Brevet Major Russell Upcher (Captain 31st October 1871, Brev. Major 11th November 1878) and Captain Thomas Rainforth (Captain 1st April 1875) had returned.

Reading Major Spalding's official report he arrived back at Helpmaakar at about 9pm which ties in with Alan's 9.30pm timings in his 26th January letter.
(Lt. Heaton says it was about 11pm though compared with Spalding's timings he is about 45 minutes out which would in the pitch dark bring it nearer to Spaldings 9pm arrival)
Spalding also claims on the way back they met up with Colonel Hassard  R.E.
So there were plenty of officers about senior to Essex.
When Alan asked permission it would have been from one of these senior officers.
I can imagine him being told to find someone to take the message and the fact he says "No one would go" shows he did indeed ask.
With refusal the only option was for him to take the message.
An act of incredible bravery that Clery and his mob tried to denounce. Mad  Mad  Mad

Kate Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Oct 13, 2021 8:19 am

Damn Kate, you should write a book about it. Suoer cool. Very Happy Joker
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879

Posts : 216
Join date : 2021-01-04

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Oct 13, 2021 10:26 am

How's the battlefield looking this morning, Frank?  Did the Hadedas wake you up?


Kate
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Oct 13, 2021 12:59 pm

Hi Kate
Ive been out taking lots of photos, unfortunatly I will onlt down load when Im back in town. I can however confirm, and you will see it on the photos, There is a massive amount of space that could indeed hide an army 20 000 plus, and hidden from the piquets and videttes. Its reall quite amazing how accurate the so called 'Woods' maps are.
Look forward to sharing with you.
In terms of the area, the develoment taking place below the battlefield is starting to become threatening . The new homes are starting to push up to the fence lines. The area opened by the King as a tribute area, remember the 140th, is just a patch of long grass and weed, the only thing that hasnt been stolen is the fence itself.
But the hotel, Shane and Roz are still as chilled as ever. Roz is still taking great delight in feeding you as much as she can get into you, ditto that with Shane for the beer. Ah hum, just have to grin and bare it Im afraid. Pity I have to head back tomorrow to meetings in Pinetown. Sad
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2305
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Oct 13, 2021 4:49 pm

Frank,

Have you taken any photographs of the memorial garden? There were assurances made at the time to maintain that area.

How about the blue plastic sheeting?

JY
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Oct 13, 2021 5:12 pm

John it virtually doesnt exist, its a fence and thats it. I have taken photos, I will e mail them on Friday for you.
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879

Posts : 216
Join date : 2021-01-04

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Oct 13, 2021 5:36 pm

Looking forward to seeing the pictures Frank.
Such a shame about the memorial garden. It was opened with such a thought provoking ceremony in 2019 that had me in tears Sad
When I was there last year a lot of the construction material from the Kings new palace/eduction centre on the firing line had 'disappeared' and it just looked like a spoil heap. Rolling Eyes
Kate Sad
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: Seniority after the battle   Seniority after the battle EmptyWed Oct 13, 2021 8:04 pm

Hi Kate
I remember it well it was a very dignified event. Virtually all the 'construction' paraphenalia has gone, the power of Affirmative shopping. Now its exactly what you say half a dozen piles of fill that are also slowly being reduced in size. But thats a good thing.
As soon as I can on Friday I will post some photos and descriptions.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10356
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 65
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Seniority after the battle Empty
PostSubject: Seniority after the battle    Seniority after the battle EmptyThu Oct 14, 2021 1:45 am

Hi Frank
Cant say I'm surprised with what's happened to that area , I did notice at the Memorial Garden Ceremony in 2019 that it's longevity didn't seem to be much of a priority , from what I saw it was hastily put together , and never for a moment was it going to be around for any period of time . When I revisited 4 months later it was certainly deteriorating quite quickly , I remember I sent some pics to JY to show it's quickening demise ! . Please pass on my best to Roz and Shane .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
 
Seniority after the battle
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR BATTLES-
Jump to: