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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies

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Bill8183
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Julian Whybra




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Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 10:32 am

Kate
OK. I don't have an original but I have a printed-off copy of the one on-line - it must be an expurgated copy. The page nos. are continuous which made me think twice.
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 12:01 pm

There is an original at the National Archives if you want to pop down and have a look at it.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 1:26 pm

Kate
I don't doubt your word in the slightest. I was just trying to do the 2+2=4 thing. Next time I'm at TNA I'll get a complete copy.
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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 9:51 pm

Vaughan,

With regard to the spelling of the battle, there are numerous variations inscribed on the monuments and memorials I've come across (not to mention newspaper articles) so I probably wouldn't read too much into the particular spelling on the Davies plaque.

Your transcription in your original post on this thread reads ISANDWRLANA, however the photos I took of the plaque do clearly show ISANDWHLANA (which is a spelling I've come across before).

In relation to positively identifying JWJD, I suppose it would be too much to ask that one of your relatives has a South Africa Campaign medal tucked away in a drawer somewhere complete with name & regiment inscribed on the edge....

Regards,

Tim
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 10:39 pm

Agree. I wouldn't try to read too much into the choice of epitaph either. The Da Vinci code-type message would be a bit too much of a stretch!
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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 24, 2022 3:28 pm

Thanks Tim on your take in the spelling of Isandlwana on Arthur's memorial to JWJD. Do you think there is any significance in the lines from psalm 44.6 particularly the last line?
Vaughan
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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 24, 2022 10:17 pm

Evening Vaughan,

It does seem something of a Victorian trait to include a biblical line on a gravestone or memorial, so as Julian says it's unlikely to hold any potential clues.

Regards,

Tim



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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 am

A question to ponder -As there is no evidence of JWJD being enlisted in the regular army or amongst the casualties how did Arthur know JWJD was killed at Isandlwana?
Visiting St Maelog Church next week - any specific points you wish me to look at - trying to arrange an appointment to see church records..................
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 12:02 pm

Vaughan
My feeling is that the collaborative forum research done to date, especially Kate's contributions, indicate that JWJD was indeed locally-recruited Asst. Commissary Davies of the ACTD, especially as there is no still mention of him post 22.1.1879 (I have been continuing the search and have certainly been unable to find anything on him). I think it entirely possible and reasonable to assume that he was in communication with his brother (if not others of his family) and that that communication ceased in 1879. Either, then, in response to Arthur's postal queries as to his whereabouts, or as the result of being informed by the ACTD HQ in South Africa, or as the result of a letter from a confidant among JWJD's comrades, Arthur was informed of John's death in battle.
This could of course be entirely wrong and JWJD could have been serving under an alias but it is a 'working' scenario to explain the tablet in Llanfaelog.
As to questions for the church, all you can ask is to view any communications it may still hold regarding the placement of the tablet in the church. Glean what you can from that. I've always found church wardens very helpful and obliging indeed. Good luck with it!
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm

Vaughen see my post on page 1 18th June at 9.53am. I think we have all been pondering your last ponder.
You could look to see if there is a makers name on the memorial. Its a long shot but if they are still in existance they may have records.
Our local stone mason J.Day and Sons appear on many memorials in my local area, were established in 1820 and are still family run.
They cleaned Alan Gardner's headstone for me and had books of Victorian catalogues etc

Does the coat of arms on the memorial appear on any other memorials there? This could give you another avenue of investigation. If there is a grave yard have a wander round and see if there are any clues on any of the stones that could link in with the Davies's

As I said earlier look for parish magazines when you are at the church, try and speak to a church warden if you can and find out who the church history 'buff; is (most churches have them) Some larger ones even have dedictaed archivists.
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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 12:07 pm

Sorry Julian our posts seemed to have crossed
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 4:07 pm

Nothing to apologize for!
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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 12:07 pm

I have now seen the marrige certificate for the parents of JWJD which clearly gives the date of their marriage as 13th December 1848 and not 1846 as stated in William Davies obituary.
Was JWJD born out of wedlock? - Still can't find a record of JWJD's birth
Another bit of verbal info which I have not yet been able to check out is that " A brother inherited the Upland estate but surprisingly did not mention his elder brother in the entry to Burke's book of Landed Gentry (Welsh). I've had a brief look at the book online but don't really understand it! Looks like a picture is emerging (as some of you have already suggested) that not all was well in the Davies household!
Vaughan
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 12:18 pm

As regards changing the date of the marraige to 'legitimise' children, this appears to be not unusual.
Lord Gardner (Alan's father) did the same.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 2:11 pm

Vaughan
As the father died in 1900 and JWJD died in 1879 the estate would have been inherited by the next eldest brother.
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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 4:19 pm

Julian,I think we need to read the entry in Burke. What has been suggested to me is that it is highly unusual for the entitlement of the first born lost with his life in battle not to be acknowledged in the entry. Interrestingly Arthur was not the next in line.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 9:39 pm

Vaughan
That is true. As a matter of course each child would be named with birth (and death) details.
There are about another dozen or more different directories for 'landed gentry' covering the C19 which mention Edward Davies etc. but none of them so far has yielded anything of interest. I'm working my way through them.
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