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 Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 10:32 am

Kate
OK. I don't have an original but I have a printed-off copy of the one on-line - it must be an expurgated copy. The page nos. are continuous which made me think twice.
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gardner1879

gardner1879


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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 12:01 pm

There is an original at the National Archives if you want to pop down and have a look at it.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 1:26 pm

Kate
I don't doubt your word in the slightest. I was just trying to do the 2+2=4 thing. Next time I'm at TNA I'll get a complete copy.
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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 9:51 pm

Vaughan,

With regard to the spelling of the battle, there are numerous variations inscribed on the monuments and memorials I've come across (not to mention newspaper articles) so I probably wouldn't read too much into the particular spelling on the Davies plaque.

Your transcription in your original post on this thread reads ISANDWRLANA, however the photos I took of the plaque do clearly show ISANDWHLANA (which is a spelling I've come across before).

In relation to positively identifying JWJD, I suppose it would be too much to ask that one of your relatives has a South Africa Campaign medal tucked away in a drawer somewhere complete with name & regiment inscribed on the edge....

Regards,

Tim
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 10:39 pm

Agree. I wouldn't try to read too much into the choice of epitaph either. The Da Vinci code-type message would be a bit too much of a stretch!
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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 24, 2022 3:28 pm

Thanks Tim on your take in the spelling of Isandlwana on Arthur's memorial to JWJD. Do you think there is any significance in the lines from psalm 44.6 particularly the last line?
Vaughan
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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 24, 2022 10:17 pm

Evening Vaughan,

It does seem something of a Victorian trait to include a biblical line on a gravestone or memorial, so as Julian says it's unlikely to hold any potential clues.

Regards,

Tim



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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 am

A question to ponder -As there is no evidence of JWJD being enlisted in the regular army or amongst the casualties how did Arthur know JWJD was killed at Isandlwana?
Visiting St Maelog Church next week - any specific points you wish me to look at - trying to arrange an appointment to see church records..................
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 12:02 pm

Vaughan
My feeling is that the collaborative forum research done to date, especially Kate's contributions, indicate that JWJD was indeed locally-recruited Asst. Commissary Davies of the ACTD, especially as there is no still mention of him post 22.1.1879 (I have been continuing the search and have certainly been unable to find anything on him). I think it entirely possible and reasonable to assume that he was in communication with his brother (if not others of his family) and that that communication ceased in 1879. Either, then, in response to Arthur's postal queries as to his whereabouts, or as the result of being informed by the ACTD HQ in South Africa, or as the result of a letter from a confidant among JWJD's comrades, Arthur was informed of John's death in battle.
This could of course be entirely wrong and JWJD could have been serving under an alias but it is a 'working' scenario to explain the tablet in Llanfaelog.
As to questions for the church, all you can ask is to view any communications it may still hold regarding the placement of the tablet in the church. Glean what you can from that. I've always found church wardens very helpful and obliging indeed. Good luck with it!
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm

Vaughen see my post on page 1 18th June at 9.53am. I think we have all been pondering your last ponder.
You could look to see if there is a makers name on the memorial. Its a long shot but if they are still in existance they may have records.
Our local stone mason J.Day and Sons appear on many memorials in my local area, were established in 1820 and are still family run.
They cleaned Alan Gardner's headstone for me and had books of Victorian catalogues etc

Does the coat of arms on the memorial appear on any other memorials there? This could give you another avenue of investigation. If there is a grave yard have a wander round and see if there are any clues on any of the stones that could link in with the Davies's

As I said earlier look for parish magazines when you are at the church, try and speak to a church warden if you can and find out who the church history 'buff; is (most churches have them) Some larger ones even have dedictaed archivists.
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 12:07 pm

Sorry Julian our posts seemed to have crossed
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 27, 2022 4:07 pm

Nothing to apologize for!
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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 12:07 pm

I have now seen the marrige certificate for the parents of JWJD which clearly gives the date of their marriage as 13th December 1848 and not 1846 as stated in William Davies obituary.
Was JWJD born out of wedlock? - Still can't find a record of JWJD's birth
Another bit of verbal info which I have not yet been able to check out is that " A brother inherited the Upland estate but surprisingly did not mention his elder brother in the entry to Burke's book of Landed Gentry (Welsh). I've had a brief look at the book online but don't really understand it! Looks like a picture is emerging (as some of you have already suggested) that not all was well in the Davies household!
Vaughan
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 12:18 pm

As regards changing the date of the marraige to 'legitimise' children, this appears to be not unusual.
Lord Gardner (Alan's father) did the same.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 2:11 pm

Vaughan
As the father died in 1900 and JWJD died in 1879 the estate would have been inherited by the next eldest brother.
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Vaughan




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 4:19 pm

Julian,I think we need to read the entry in Burke. What has been suggested to me is that it is highly unusual for the entitlement of the first born lost with his life in battle not to be acknowledged in the entry. Interrestingly Arthur was not the next in line.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 9:39 pm

Vaughan
That is true. As a matter of course each child would be named with birth (and death) details.
There are about another dozen or more different directories for 'landed gentry' covering the C19 which mention Edward Davies etc. but none of them so far has yielded anything of interest. I'm working my way through them.
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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyThu Aug 10, 2023 11:55 pm

Hi All 

I was wondering if anyone had come across this:

The Western Mail. 6 January 1897:

Death of Captain Kevill-Davies 

An old 17th Lancer has just passed to his rest in Captain Kevill-Davies, of Croft Castle Herefordshire. Born in December 1847 and educated at Eton, he purchased his Cornetcy in the 17th Lancers in 1868. The regiment was then in England, and commanded by Colonel Drury-Lowe.
He accompanied it to South Africa in 1879, and distinguished himself at the action of Ulundi, where he killed six Zulus with his own hand and saved the life of a Trooper.

Admins post Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 6:53pm. Thread: Captain William Somerset Kevill Davies, seems to refer to the same man, but the birth date requires amending I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 12, 2023 5:10 pm

Hi All 

In relation to posts on page 1

The London Gazette, August 24 1880:

First entry:
17th Lancers, The promotion to the rank of Captain of Lieutenant W.T.S. Kevill-Davies, dated 5 July, 1879, is cancelled.

Second entry:
Lieutenant W.T.S Kevill-Davies retired from service, receiving the value of his commission. Dated, 25 August 1880.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 12, 2023 7:06 pm

Hi All 



A point raised was that he was not listed as a private passenger on any ship. This could indicate that he may have been military, as military, when being transported, are not listed individually, assuming they traveled as a Regiment.

Having researched Ancestry, Maria, the mother, was born Jones, on the memorial she is named Maria Thomas Davies, no mention of Jones. 
That may imply that she married a man named Thomas, and may have had a child by him and later baptized the child John Jones-Davies in 1850, when she married her second husband, this could be the reason there was no mentioned of him in the inheritance issue, as he being non bloodline.


Last edited by Eddie on Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:15 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : Correct some detail)
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 12, 2023 8:03 pm

Hi Vaughan 

May I ask who manages the Ancestry account in relation to your family? If not you Who? This may be an area to look into.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 13, 2023 11:14 pm

Hi All 

I have taken a look at original newspaper reports of the soldiers that fell at Isandlwana. 
Looking at the Lance Corporals of the 2nd battalion 24th Regt, I have noticed, between T Cornish and J Davies, a J.J. Davies.
Could it be that he went by the name "John Jones-Davies", double barrel, and missed using William in his service.
This obviously depends on what records are available for J.J. Davies as listed.
Cheers
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 25, 2023 7:36 am

Eddie
I think you are referring to the man referred to earlier in the thread: the 2/24th Private, 25B/743 John Ivor Davies.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 25, 2023 3:23 pm

Hi Julian 
Without definitive proof we will never know, but the "I" for Ivor has also been said in earlier posts, to possible be an error in documents, when it could have referred to JJ.
It is possible he went by the name John Jones-Davies and missed out the William.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 25, 2023 5:39 pm

Eddie
I don't think so. As Bill noted in his post:
"As I have shown in the previous thread Pte Davies enlisted on the 2nd February 1876 as John Ivor Davies. Each subsequent pay-list of the 2/24th says John Ivor up to March 1878. After that there is a distinct difference in how the "I " is written, indicating to me that it is not John J. but John I.
...The casualty list WO 25/3368 states John Ivor, The effects list WO 25/3488 says John I. again a distinct difference in writing. The medal list, again a difference between initials."
The mistake seems to have been a misreading of the I in JI to render it as JJ.
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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 25, 2023 5:53 pm

Hi Julian 

As you have said previously, he may have went under an Alias, shame we don't know what role he played.
Has all casualties with the name Jones been accounted for?
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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 26, 2023 7:11 am

They have.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 26, 2023 8:58 pm

Hi All 

A point of note, West Wales War memorial Project /Anglo -  Zulu war - WWI. Wales. Mentions him has probably being 743 J J Davies, author of the article unknown.
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Tim Needham

Tim Needham


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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 26, 2023 10:37 pm

Eddie,

I was in touch with the article writer/website owner a number of years ago and as is stated in the article itself the subject of the plaque is only possibly 743 JJ Davies.

Regards,

Tim
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 27, 2023 12:38 am

Hi Tim 

Yes of course, as I came across it I thought i should post it here. Thank you.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 27, 2023 12:42 am

Hi all 
Who do you think would have been a butcher for the regiment back then, do you think it would have been a soldier or a civilian attached. Long shot, but coming from farming stock it's a possibility perhaps.
Second thoughts, Rob Hall was the meat contractor, possible assistant butcher maybe. Clutching at straws now.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 27, 2023 7:32 am

There were a couple of soldiers denoted as regimental butchers.
Hall's role as meat contractor was entirely different.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies   Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 27, 2023 4:15 pm

Hi Julian 

Yes, I thought as a contractor he would haul and supply and the butchery carried out by the regimental butcher come chef maybe.
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