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 Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift

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Eddie
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 08, 2022 1:45 pm

Hi all

I have been searching these forums for any information on Pte Thomas Clayton 25B/775, B Company 2-24th.

In particular where he was born, died, and where he may be buried, if we have the details.

I have come across a burial plot for a Pte Thomas Clayton in St Woolas Cemetery where three other Rorke's Drift defenders are buried. His regimental details are not given, but in the notes he is listed as Pte Thomas Clayton died 1894.
On this grave stone his wife is buried with him in 1925. I cannot make out her first name but the second is Ann. And daughter Martha Jane buried 1946.

Just a long shot, if up and until now we have no buried details for him.
Thanks Eddie
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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 08, 2022 4:06 pm

Could you post a photo of the headstone?
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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 08, 2022 8:16 pm

Yes I will get a photo next time I go by the cemetery.
Did you find any details on Thomas Clayton as I have searched on these forums and found nothing.

Eddie
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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 08, 2022 8:58 pm

Eddie,

Thomas Clayton died at Helpmekaar 5 April 1879, and was buried in the military cemetery there. From the information I have, there are a number of graves close to the rear wall marked with anonymous slabs and it's believed that Thomas may be interred under one of these.

Regards,

Tim
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 08, 2022 9:41 pm

Thank you so much Tim.
I could not find any details on here and thought he may be our Thomas Clayton.
Eddi
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 09, 2022 6:05 pm

These are my note about burials at Helpmekaar:

No. Rank Name Initials Date of Death Unit HR24th Medal Roll WO25 3368 Comments
25B/1536 Pte Brookes George 27/3/1879 2/24th √ √ √ Died Helpmekaar. Served in G Company Recorded in WO16/1579.
25B/735 Pte Clayton Thomas 5/4/1879 2/24th √ √ √ Died Helpmekaar – thought to be buried there. No. on medal roll 755. DOD 5/5/1879. Served in B Company at Rorke’s Drift. Recorded in WO16/1579.
2Lt Franklin Reginald 20/2/1879 2/24th √ √ √ Died of fever at Helpmekaar. Headstone at Helpmekaar.
1-24/839 Pte McCarthy Jeremiah 1/3/1879 1/24th √ - √ Died of fever Helpmekaar. WO25/3368 gives 839 on 20/1/1879 QUERY
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 12:08 pm

Eddie
Apologies for lateness. Been away.
CLAYTON:
Born Leominster, Herefordshire 16.5.1855. Baptized 13.8.1855
Parents Thomas Clayton and Emily Davenport.
Died 5.4.1879
cause of death: fever
Buried in Helpmekaar Cemetery next to the rear wall.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 1:41 pm

Thank you Julian
Thought I was on to a winner there.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 3:48 pm

Eddie
I'm curious. Can I ask why you are making enquiries about these various individual soldiers? I'm happy to share knowledge; I just wondered what you are trying to resolve/create/piece together.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 5:38 pm

Hi Julian

I am attempting to locate and put a grave site next to as many defenders of Rorke's Drift as possible.
I have researched all named burial sites on these forums but there are still many lost or forgotten.
There are some that will never be found.
I was not aware of Clayton dying in S.A.

I am also interested in general research and helping if I can. Another post on Genealogy about Chick was attempting to find his bloodline and I found a gravestone of Family Chick in Trealaw as a possible Glamorgan line and posted it to possibly assist.

I am ex military of 23 years service and find an interest of popping into churchyards occasionally in passing to see what interesting military graves there are.
I posted the photograph of Crimean VC recipient CSgt Byrne on the site, who's medal was found in the Thames, its just something I am interested in.
I find the Zulu war interesting as it was tactical warfare unlike any other, which I don't think the army had encountered in the past and were caught unawares.
I read posts and attempt to add to the research if I can.

Eddie
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 6:19 pm

Julian

I forgot to mention that I have two ex army friends names of Pitt And Ruck who are interested in finding out if they are descendents of their name sakes. I know where Samuel Pitt is buried but can not find anything for Ruck.

Eddie
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 6:56 pm

25B/345 Pte John Ruck 1/24th - died in the Eastern Cape 26.6.1878 - not sure where as original burials were moved in 1972. He is now commemorated at the Garden of Remembrance at Edward Street KWT. WO16/1573 records place of date as KWT.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 7:42 pm

Kenny

Thank you. That is interesting, another Pte Ruck.
Do you know how he came to his fate?
Eddie
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 10:10 pm

He not mentioned specially by name as a battle casualty in the Historical Records of the 24th in the Eastern Cape - most likely disease. His date of death is near the end of the campaign in the Eastern Cape. The 24th (1st and 2nd Battalions) lost 1 officer and 66 men prior Isandlwana during the period 1875-1879.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 10:16 pm

Thanks Eddie. I'll check out Ruck and Chick for you amongst my notes and get back to you in a couple of days.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 10:17 pm

Thank you Kenny

It seems a lot suffered with fever, a few being in the hospital at Rorke's Drift, and Clayton dying of it as well.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptySun Aug 14, 2022 10:21 pm

Thank you Julian
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 15, 2022 12:51 am

Kenny

Does it give any indication of the age of Pte Ruck at the time of his death?

Cheers Eddie
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 15, 2022 7:54 am

RUCK John – Private – 25B/345 – 1st/24th
Born Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England.
Enlisted Gloucester 8/7/1874 trade – Collier.
South Africa Medal 1877-8-9 with clasp 1877-8.
Died King William’s Town, Eastern Cape, South Africa 26/6/1878 due to disease.
Buried Edward Street Garden of Remembrance, King William’s Town. The remains of soldiers from Perie Bush Post, Fort Jackson, Fort White, Kabousie, Izeli, Baillie’s Post, Fort Murray, Debe Nek, Isidence & Mncoesha were re-interred there in 1972.
WO25/3368 incorrectly named Buck.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 15, 2022 11:13 am

Kenny thank you very much.

There seems to be a lot of mistakes on many soldiers records back then, and also with people of the same name in the same vicinity. It make you wonder if Clayton is really the same Clayton with the number being different.
But I suspect it is.

Eddie
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 15, 2022 12:13 pm

In the 24th in South Africa there were:
3 soldiers named RUCK - 25B/1531 James Ruck, 25B/1065 John (James?) Ruck (RD), and 25B/345 John Ruck (buried KWT)
2 soldiers named CLAYTON - 25B/1807 James Clayton (draft 1.3.1879), 25B/755 Thomas Clayton (RD) died Helpmakaar 5.4.1879. The latter (before days of computers!!!) also shown as 25B/753 and 25B/735.

I think you will find that someone has already track down most of the burial sites RD defenders - impress me by saying you have visited the New Cantonment Cemetery at Allahabad.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 15, 2022 1:54 pm

...but not the bottom of the Atlantic somewhere off Madeira!
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 15, 2022 3:24 pm

Julian
Or off the coast of Angola ? Not quite.

Thank you Kenny & Julian
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyMon Aug 15, 2022 3:47 pm

Kenny

I appreciate your assistance in my research and thank you for all the information above.
I also appreciate that some have tracked down burial sites of RD defenders. I have searched through all forums on this site to assertain where defenders are buried and still find at least 42 without a burial location.
Other than these forums I am not aware of any other listed information. I appreciate that some may never be found.
Eddie
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2022 12:40 pm

Hi Kenny
Do you know where and when the following two Ruck's enlisted:
James Ruck 25B/1531
John ( James ) Ruck 25B/1065(RD)

This would be much appreciated.
Eddie
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2022 2:42 pm

25B/1531 (or 25B/1534) from number enlisted March 1878.  Came out with 1.3.1879 draft.  Clasp 1879

25B/1065 enlisted 18.1877.  Suggestion is that he was discharged in India.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2022 2:50 pm

Kenny many thanks

You indicate: Enlisted 18. 1877 against 25B/1065. Is there a month to be inverted there?

Is there any indication of where they enlisted.

I know 25B/345 John Ruck - Gloucester.
Eddie
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2022 4:42 pm

RUCK John (James) – Private – 25B/1065 – 2nd/24th B Company
Enlisted c. January 1877.
Attested 18/1/1877.
Posted to the 2nd/24th Foot 31/1/1877.
Promoted to Corporal 12/1/1878.
Reduced to Private 17/7/1878.
Served in South Africa 1/2/1878 – 12/1/1880.
Present during the defence of Rorke’s Drift Mission Station, Natal, South Africa 22-23/1/1879.
Appointed Lance/Corporal 23/1/1879.
Transferred to F Company no date.
Transferred from F Company to G Company 31/1/1879 at Rorke’s Drift, Natal, list dated 14/3/1879.
Promoted to Corporal 30/4/1879.
Reduced to Private 13/10/1879.
Served at Casemate Barracks Gibraltar in the Mediterranean 13/1/1880 – 11/8/1880.
Awarded good conduct pay at 1d rate 17/7/1880 named as John.
Served in India & Burma from 12/8/1880.
Promoted to Corporal 15/5/1881.
Reduced to Private 14/3/1882.
Placed on the unattached list while in Madras, India 28/11/1886.
Discharge not traced, possibly stayed in India.
South Africa Medal 1877-8-9 with clasp 1877-8-9.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2022 5:53 pm

Kenny thank you once again. Amazing.

Such a naughty boy.
I'm just going to be a pain once more and ask if you have any more on 25B/2531 (1534).
Thank you so very much
Eddie
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Bill8183




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2022 7:49 pm

25B/345 John Ruck 06/07/1874 Monmouth

25B/1065 James Ruck 12/01/1877 Cardiff 24th Bde Depot Transferred to 25th Bde Depot 18/01/1877

25B/1531 James Ruck 11/02/1878 Monmouth
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2022 9:24 pm

Thank you Kenny/Bill

It seems the Christian names keep changing. Kenny gave 25B/1531 as John not James.

I knew 25B/1065 RD was James / John.
Eddie
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Kenny




Posts : 526
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyWed Aug 17, 2022 7:46 am

Bill has spent many hours deciphering the pay and muster rolls of the 24th covering many years before and during the AZW.  He is realiable.  However, in the days of handwritten documents mistakes often occur - in the past (on the battlefield) and present.  As you know documents were lost during the campaign itself. Then came typewriters, now we have computers, cut & paste, and digitial cameras which improve accuracy.  And, of course, the average person in the street pays income tax and thereford ensures that HMRC has the correct name details.  This accruracy did not happen in Victorian times.  My own grandfather enlisted into the army in 1893 and the recruiting sergeant mis-spelt his surname - and he served for 27 years under the mis-spelt name.  So today officially I have the incorrect family name.


Last edited by Kenny on Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3182
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyWed Aug 17, 2022 9:59 am

Martin
Same thing with my grandfather - Whybra to Whybrow - which he never bothered to get corrected - probably too much officialdom, red tape, and extra paperwork - all for what?
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Eddie




Posts : 297
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

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PostSubject: Re: Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift    Thomas Clayton Rorke's Drift  EmptyWed Aug 17, 2022 2:28 pm

It is all understandable and no offence to anyone called Shirley, but it can be male or female.
Some with a name they did not prefer would adopt their middle name. My sister official name Shirley prefers to be called by her middle name "Patricia" because he surname is Curly, which would make her Shirley Curly.

Cheers gents for all your kind help.
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