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Eddie




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PostSubject: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 2:37 pm

Can anyone please help. I have found three Capt Shepstone's in what I have read.
T,.George and Offy, is Offy one of T, or George.
George being killed at Isandula, Offy being accused of taking letters, T being part of Lord Chelmsford's column.
Is Offy T Shepstone?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 3:13 pm

Eddie,

“Offy” was the nickname of Captain Theophilus Shepstone Jnr., Natal Carbineers, and later commander of Shepstone’s Native Horse.

The Shepstone family got everywhere, another brother, Henrique Charles Shepstone accompanied King Cetshwayo kaMpande to the U.K. during his visit in 1882.

Their fingers were in many pies…

JY
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 3:37 pm

Thank you John
I have read that when Lord Chelmsford's column left Isandula on the 21st January they left behind 25 men of the Natal Cabineers , and were mostly employed on Outpost duties.
Capt Shepstone being one of these men is mentioned many times in my reading of the battle, and in the issue of the letters. 
I know of Trp Barker offered Captain Shepstone his horse when he came across the exhausted officer during their escape, but where did the Captain escape to?


Last edited by Eddie on Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling error)
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 3:52 pm

Eddie,

I think you are confusing Theophilus Junior “Offy” with his brother George Palmer Shepstone who perished at iSandlwana.  George was serving as a Staff Officer on Durnford’s No. 2 Column.

JY
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 4:10 pm

Thank you John.

Captain George Shepstone died at Isandula as we know. So who is the captain shepstone tpr Barker give his horse to, who makes his ascape on the horse?
Ossy was the Captain of the 25 Cabineers left behind by Lord Chelmsford and posted on Outpost duty at Isandlwana, was he not? I do believe I have the correct officer as the commander of the said Cabineers. I don't think his brother was the Captain in charge of them.
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90th

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PostSubject: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 4:32 pm

Eddie , Barker's horse was taken by Lt Higginson ! , Higginson rode off leaving Barker near the river bank ! , Barker was found when friends went looking for him !!.
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 4:39 pm

Eddie,

Captain Theophilus “Offy” Shepstone, Natal Carbineers was on the Dartnell/Lonsdale reconnaissance.  

Left in command of the remaining Natal Carbineers at iSandlwana was Lieutenant F. J. D. Scott.

Trooper W. W. Barker gave up his mount to Lieutenant & Adjutant W. C. R. Highinson, Natal Native Contingent. As mentioned by 90th above.

It may be possible that you are confusing the events and persons involved?

JY
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Amended date of departure    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 5:21 pm

John/90th, thank you.

With respect I'm sure there is an answer, but could someone explain this:

General Wood addressing the troops of the Newcastle Rifles and the Natal Cabineers, at their medal presentation 17th December 1881:

We learnt much in the Zululand war, but in my opinion nothing so remarkable , and so well worth remembering as the devotion to duty shown by detachments of the Newcastle Rifles and Natal Cabineers.
When the corps left Isandlwana on the 21st January 1879, for Matyana district, there remained with the camp , 25 men, who were mostly employed on Outpost duty. Seven of those being separated next day from their troop escaped, and with one exception reached Helpakaar together and unshaken.
Only now I heard of a gallant act performed by a straggler, Trooper Barker, who's late arrival (at Helpakaar) is well explained by having, during his retreat , given up his horse to an officer who was exhausted. Into this matter it will be my pleasing duty to enquire further.
These Cabineers , hearing at Helpakaar that their commander, Offy Shepstone, whom I am glad to see at your head today, had got to Rorke's Drift, immediately rejoined him.

The address goes on to more subject matter.

The North Wales Express, Friday, January 20, 1882.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 5:38 pm

I amended the date of departure from Isandlwana, as I stated 31st incorrectly.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 5:47 pm

If this statement is to be taken as read, this would indicate quite possibly that Captain Shepstone had made it to Rorke's Drift. Quite possibly Trp Barker having noticed the officers condition, had given him his horse and advised him to ride straight to Rorke's Drift hospital for medical assistance. 
This would imply that Captain Shepstone got to Rorke's Drift prior to the attack later on at 4:30pm, but I appreciate no mention has been made of him being present.
With that said, he would have only been there as a patient and may have been overlooked, as have others.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 5:48 pm

Eddie,

The simple answer that Major-General Sir Henry Evelyn Wood V.C., had assumed command of British & Colonial forces in Natal, following the death on Majuba of George Pomeroy Colley.

One of the tasks that Wood had to do was to issue the campaign medal for those troops who had served in the Zulu War, including as stated in the newspaper report the Natal Carbineers and the Newcastle Mounted Rifles. There is an engraving in The Graphic of Wood presenting medals to the 2nd Northamptonshire Regiment, formerly the 58th (Rutlandshire) Regiment.

However, the date in your report erroneously states the 31st, rather than the 21st January 1879. Wood was subsequently made aware of Trooper, by then Sergeant, W. W. Barker’s act of surrendering his horse that Higginson could escape the carnage. Wood made a submission for a retrospective award of the Victoria Cross for his actions on 22nd January 1879. However, the submission although considered Barker’s actions were commendable by Horse Guards, it was felt they did not warrant the Victoria Cross.

Captain Theophilus Shepstone Jnr., referred to by Wood as “Offy” had been part of the force which relieved Rorke’s Drift on the morning of 23rd January 1879. Those who survived iSandlwana who had initially made their way to Helpmekaar rejoined the rest of their unit at Rorke’s Drift.

I hope that clarifies an ambiguity you may have?

JY
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 6:32 pm

John.

I have indicated above, I had ammended the date to read 21st.
I know what the Generals roll was, and had said he was presenting medals to the troops.

With respect, Gen Wood VC, had only prior to his address to the troops, that day, been informed of the said act, Captain Shepstone and all the troops involved being present. 
This act of bravery, one would have thought, would have been discussed prior to the General including the details in his address. If it were another officer of a different name, this surely would have been highlighted to him.

Why, also, would he have mentioned the 25 men he left behind that day, and Captain Shepstone's, Trp Barker's involvement in it, in front of all his troops who were under his command, prior to 1881 and during the war.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 7:40 pm

Eddie,

At the start of the Zulu War of 1879 the then Colonel Henry Evelyn Wood commanded No. 4 Column, as the war progressed his command was re-designated as “The Flying Column”.  At no time in the Zulu War were the Natal Carbineers under his command.

The Natal Carbineers killed at iSandlwana are as follows:
Lieutenant F. J. D. Scott
Quartermaster W. London
Sergeant J. C. Bullock
Trooper J. A. Blaikie
Trooper G. Borain
Trooper C. S. G. Christian
Trooper H. W. Davis
Trooper J. Deane
Trooper H. Dickinson
Trooper C. Haldane
Trooper W. Hawkins
Trooper C. Hayhow
Trooper F. Jackson
Trooper R. W. Jackson
Trooper J. Lumley
Trooper G. T. MacLeroy
Trooper W. Mendenhall
Trooper M. Moodie
Trooper J. Ross
Trooper W. Swift
Trooper E. Tarboton.

The following Natal Carbineers fought at, and survived, the Battle of iSandlwana:
Trooper W. W. Barker
Trooper W. Edwards
Trooper C. Fletcher
Trooper W. H. Granger
Trooper A. Muirhead
Trooper W. Sibthorpe
Trooper W. Tarboton
Trooper J. Whitelaw.

The crux of your quest can be found in the following statement from Barker:
“…as I fancied I saw a man who I thought was Hawkins some way down the hill, I rode back, but it turned out to be Lieut. Higginson, so he informed me, of the native contingent, and had got hurt in the river where his horse was washed away.  As my horse was too tired to carry two, I assisted him to mount, and he rode away leaving me to follow on foot….”

As you can see the list does not include Captain T. Shepstone, who with the Natal Carbineers’ Adjutant, Lieutenant W. Royston and a small detachment of Carbineers formed part of the reconnaissance of 21st of January 1879, under the command of Major J. G. Dartnell, Natal Mounted Police.

If you are interested in the role played by the Natal Carbineers can I recommend you obtain a copy of the Reverend John Stalker’s work on the regiment between 1855 - 1911.  Especially as it includes the material relating to Trooper Barker.  The answers that you seek can be found on pages 119 - 121, as it includes Wood’s recorded speech of 17th December 1881, and the response to Wood from Horse Guards, dated 10th March 1882.

JY
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90th

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PostSubject: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 1:57 am

Hi Eddie / JY
According to Denis Barker , from memory W.W.Barker didn't give his horse to Higginson to then ride away ! , Higginson said he was going to look for another horse for Barker ! , instead , he rode off toward Helpmekaar ( quickly !) leaving Barker to do his best on foot , Barker was found by Tarboton , and one or two others , as they knew he'd crossed the River , which was why they went to find him , they may well have seen Higginson on Barker's mount ? .
90th
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 5:55 am

90th wow!
It is mentioned somewhere, some of these mounted troops returned to Isandlwana, just before or during the battle. I will look for the tread again.

The published History of The Henderson family written in Pietermaritzburg 1973 is where this evidence evolved, and was written just to promote the man in question. It miss interprets the accounts of what occured that day. 
Are we to believe these false statements by people who miss read the situation, or are we to believe a highly decorated General?
Mr Barker's account was made shortly after the battle, as was Henderson's ( we now know not to be true), Mr Higginsons account is that he went to find a horse for Mr Barker.

When General Wood VC made his address in 1881 ( John, this being the speech you refer to in your post above) he had all the up to date facts given to him. It was during this address 
( into this matter it will be my pleasing duty to enquire further) and after this address that the general sent the citation to the war office, naming the people involved, Mr Barker and Capt Shepstone.

John, in your post you give the impression that the citation was issued at the time of the statements, according to this address by General Wood VC it was issued after he completing his pleasing duty of enquiring further.

Probably not possible, but would anyone know what was on the Citation that was turned down?

That's my view until we learn otherwise.


Last edited by Eddie on Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : To add further text)
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 6:23 am

According to this address by the General, the Citation would have been sent to the war office after 1881.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 7:16 am

Eddie,

Which “Capt Shepstone” are you referring to in your remark “Mr Barker and Capt Shepstone”?

The document that Wood sent was not a citation, but a recommendation, Wood sent it when he returned to the United Kingdom to the War Office on 6th March 1882, as will disclosed in the following.

As recorded in Stalker’s Natal Carbineers, 1855-1911:
True to his promise made at the distribution of the Zulu war medals, Sir Evelyn Wood brought the conduct of Trooper W. W. Barker to the notice of the Horse Guards, unfortunately, however, without the result desired, as will be seen from the despatch in reply to his application.

Horse Guards, War Office,
10th March, 1882.

Major-General Sir Evelyn Wood, V.C., etc.,etc.
Sir - I am directed by the Field Marshal Commanding in Chief to acknowledge your letter of the 6th instant, and to acquaint you in reply, that statements re Trooper Barker, Natal Carbineers, at the battle of Isandhlwana, on 22nd January, 1879, having carefully been considered, His Royal Highness desires me to state that, while Trooper Barker’s conduct on the occasion referred to is deserving of every commendation, there does not appear to be sufficient ground, according to the terms of the statute, for recommending him for the distinction of the Victoria Cross.


Gary,

I appreciate what Barker states in full about Higginson as I have in front of me.  I was merely trying to establish for Eddie’s sake, who Barker had given his horse up for.  As it appeared to me there was some doubt regarding the identity of the officer concerned.

JY
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 8:16 am

John.

The Captain I refer to would be "Offy" as mentioned by General Wood VC in his address. Within the recommendation you mention, would be included the Citation surely.

None of the above information gives any indication of the officer involved, it just includes the result of proceedings.

Why state that Mr Barker gave up his horse for Higginson in your post above and now state that there was doubt over the identity? There was no doubt, as stated by the general, as far as we know.
Mr Barker was horseless having gave it away, Higginson said he would go and find a horse for him, the General states that the person who received the horse from Mr Barker was Captain Offy Shepstone in his address.
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 8:40 am

Eddie,

My comment to 90th states that I am concurring with him that the officer was Walter Higginson.  In my opinion you are the only one it appears doubts this as being fact.  It at you that the remark regarding doubt is aimed.

I just cannot understand what is causing you to doubt Barker’s own words?

For the sake of obsolete clarifaction.  Just tell where you are reading that Wood is stating that Captain Theophilus Shepstone was given Barker’s horse?  Especially at the time in question they were in fact several miles apart.

JY
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 8:58 am

John.

With respect, you have read 90th's post incorrectly. He does not state that Mr Barker gave his horse to Mr Higginson. He says Mr Barker did not give his horse to Mr Higginson.

You ask where am I reading this: I have indicated in my post above at 5:21pm yesterday, the newspaper article it came from and the address General Wood VC gave to the troops at the medal presentation.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 9:36 am

John I take that back, It is I who misunderstood what 90th said in his post above, I do apologise.
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Eddie




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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 10:04 am

I have found an old tread titled: George Shepstones death.
If you put this in search you should find it.
When you do find it, scroll down to Dave's first post. In the article mentioned by Dave (sauce I do not know at this point) the two officers, Shepstone are mentioned.

It explains what happens at Isandlwana and ten lines up from the bottom it states where Captain T (Offy) Shepstone is posted on the battlefield, it having been over run by the enemy. 
It states that Captain T Shepstone is sent to the west face of the mountain, to face the Udududu and the Unokenke but was over run.
It goes on to say, some of the survivors of those Companies rallied just on the western side of the neck..

I posted this tread to raise debate about the article above and its content, in doing so, we learn rights and wrongs along the way. In doing so, it was not my intention to disagree and argue the point. It was to debate any facts that we may find, right or wrong. In doing so, if I have offended anyone or their beliefs I apologise.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 10:32 am

Eddie,

No need to apologise in my own clumsy way I am trying point you in the right direction.

This is an extract from a very lengthy statement made by Trooper W. W. Barker, of the Natal Carbineers, hopefully it will help you to understand what I am endeavouring to convey to you, but I am obviously failing miserably.

I have retained the original spelling and punctuation throughout.

“As soon as we got out of fire Tarboton and I waited to see if we could find any of our fellows, and as I fancied I saw a man who I thought was Hawkins some way down the hill, I rode back, but it turned out to be Lieut. Higginson, so he informed me, of the native contingent, and had got hurt in the river where his horse was washed away.  As my horse was too tired to carry two, I assisted him to mount, and he rode away leaving me to follow on foot.  Tarboton, Henderson, and Raw, recognising him on my horse, took the horse from him and came to meet me with it, of which I was right glad, as I had run for about three miles.  Higginson told them he could not have walked any further, and he knew I was fresh, and that he was sending the horse back for me.  We gave our horses a rest here for about an hour, and I can tell you they needed it, as we (the Carbineers) had been in the saddle since 4 a.m., and had had a lot of galloping about.  My poor horse had come down twice with me along the Fugitives’ Track.  I should say it was now about 4 p.m.  Higginson was the last man to have seen Melville and Coghill, whom he had left at the drift, and it will be remembered that it was from information received from him that their bodies were discovered and the colours of the 24th found.

As to the newspaper report this is an extract from Stalker’s work, pages 119-120.  I fully appreciate it is almost verbatim what you have previously written above.  Again I have retained the original spellings and punctuation throughout.

More than three years after the Carbineers had left Maritzburg for the front, on the 17th December, 1881, at the distribution of medals on the market square to those who had been in the Zulu campaign, Sir Evelyn Wood, who presided, said:-
“We have learnt much from the war, but in my opinion nothing so remarkable as the devotion to duty shown by the Natal Carbineers and Newcastle Mounted Rifles.  When these corps left Isandhlwana on 21st January, 1879, for Matyana’s district, there remained in the camp 25 men (?Carbineers 28), who were mostly employed on outpost duty.  Seven of these, separated from their troops next day, managed to escape, and, with one exception, reached Helpmekaar together and unshaken.  I have only now heard of a gallant act performed by the straggler whose late arrival is well explained by his having, during the retreat, given up his horse to an officer who was exhausted.  Into this matter it will be my pleasing duty to enquire further.  These Carbineers, hearing at Helpmekaar, that their commanding officer, Mr. Offy Shepstone (whom I am glad to see here to-day), had got to Rorke’s Drift, immediately rejoined him.


Again, I reiterate that Captain Theophilus “Offy” Shepstone was not present at the debacle of iSandlwana, he was part of the force under the command of Lieutenant-General (local rank) Lord Chelmsford.  Therefore he could not have been with Trooper W. W. Barker when Barker gave up his horse.

I can only conclude that Wood’s very mention of Shepstone’s presence at Rorke’s Drift has drawn you to your erroneous conclusion.

The text that Dave inputted on the thread George Shepstone’s Death can be found in full at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The original author has made an error in that he has confused Theophilus Shepstone with his brother George Palmer Shepstone.  This is the unfortunate thing about cut & paste research, if one person makes an error it is perpetuated by the next.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 12:23 pm

John you are not failing miserably as you say. I am reading what you are posting and raising points to debate. I am not disagreeing with you.

Please tell me, what is your perception of General Wood's Address to the troops at the medal parade. What are you seeing that contradicts my perception of it.

You said the old article i referred you to is a mistake. That could be taken as an assumption, and there could be mistakes in statements also. What are we to believe?
We could asked, are the statements a collaboration to impress the South African Media? What are we to believe?

General Wood gives his address which confirms what is said in the old article, that Offy was present. ?????
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 1:11 pm

John the erroneous conclusion is not the mention of Captain Shepstones presence at Rorke's Drift.
The conclusion is reached by the fact General Wood stating that it was Offy that rode the horse and proceeded to the Drift. Addressing Captain Shepstone at the parade and acknowledging his participation in the brave act.
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 1:52 pm

Eddie,

Where does Wood state anything about about a horse in his speech, and that Shepstone rode it?

Where is it that you contend Theophilus Shepstone Jnr. was present?

Yes, he was present the medal ceremony in Pietermaritzburg on 17th December 1881.

Had he been present in the camp at iSandlwana?  Yes he had but he had left as part of the reconnaissance of Major John George Dartnell, and therefore he was not present at the Battle of iSandlwana.

Was he present at Rorke’s Drift?  Yes he was but after the post had been relieved on 23rd January 1879.

It is not an assumption on my part that the Chadwick article contains an error, as the author is attributing to one brother, the actions that we know are performed by another brother.  How do we know that it comes from the statements of surviving witnesses who state that those were the actions of George Palmer Shepstone.

A case in point is a very recent publication that places an officer - Captain Reginald Clare Hart, Royal Engineers - at the Battle of Nyezane, also fought on 22nd January 1879, whereas that officer was actually on the Indian Sub-Continent having performed an act which would result in the award of the Victoria Cross against the Afghans.  The officer at Nyezane was his brother, Captain Arthur FitzRoy Hart, of the 31st (Huntingdonshire) Regiment.  Where did this confusion set in, you might ask, the source that it appears in the very same publication of the South African Military History Society that confuses the Shepstone brothers.  

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yet a modern South African historian willingly accepts it as Gospel and reproduces it.

Research has come on in leaps and bounds since the magazine was initially published for the 1979 Centenary, we know more, we understand more.  If we conduct our own research we can learn more and some of us will impart it.

I am all for challenging what is accepted as the norm, especially if there is evidence to contradict it.  However, I cannot see your point as regard to Theophilus Shepstone escaping from iSandlwana on a horse given to him by Trooper Barker, when Barker states that person was Walter Higginson.

If I am missing something point me in the right direction, please!

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 5:44 pm

I will respond to the post with some details shortly, in the meantime can I ask respectfully that you read the Generals Address a few times more. You will see that he is talking about Shepstone. 
You have not replied to my request asking what your perception of what he is saying is.

Eddie  Very Happy


Last edited by Eddie on Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling error)
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PostSubject: Add text   Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 6:16 pm

John, in the old article mentioned above, throughout the advance to Isandula Shepstones names is not mention at all. When the reconnaissance leaves camp only the Cabineers are mentioned, (yes, he is the Commander). 
When Dartnell withdraws from the Northern slopes of Hlazakazi, where he found the Cabineers, and the NNC had found a herd of cattle that were sent back to Isandlwana escorted by two Company's (Coy not mentioned) I put the suggestion to you, that this is when Offy proceeds to the camp.
The NNC after some dissension among the officers moved to Dartnells position and bivouced.

Nowhere during the reconnaissance before that or after that is the name Shepstone mentioned. The only time that I can see is when he is named at the battle. If you read it from the highlighted heading the battle in camp, you will hopefully see where I am coming from, and the cattle are mention as being in the way also, not that, that means much.


Last edited by Eddie on Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:16 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Add text)
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 6:32 pm

It also states when all escapees are making their way to Fugitives Drift:
Just above the crest the Natal Native House were holding some spare mounts. Had Melville reached them he would have been safe.
I suggest to you that this is where Higginson got his mount, not from Mr Barkers, he giving his mount to Shepstone, as I see his statement as to contrived.
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 8:15 pm

Eddie,

You asked me for my perception of Major-General Henry Evelyn Wood’s address, here it is to my best knowledge and ability.

So I will deal with that request before I progress this thread further.  To do so I will dissect the address and add my comments in bold text beneath.

“We have learnt much from the war, but in my opinion nothing so remarkable as the devotion to duty shown by the Natal Carbineers and Newcastle Mounted Rifles.”

In my opinion Wood is flattering the two Natal Volunteer corps paraded before him. Do not forget that less than a decade previous the Natal Carbineers had considered their reputation besmirched by a British officer.

“When these corps left Isandhlwana on 21st January, 1879, for Matyana’s district, there remained in the camp 25 men (?Carbineers 28), who were mostly employed on outpost duty.”

The figure in parentheses is that of the Reverend John Stalker, added subsequently.  Neither match the actual numbers concerned.

1,  Lieutenant F. J. D. Scott
2,  Quartermaster W. London
3,  Sergeant J. C. Bullock
4,  Trooper J. A. Blaikie
5,  Trooper G. Borain
6,  Trooper C. S. G. Christian
7,  Trooper H. W. Davis
8,  Trooper J. Deane
9,  Trooper H. Dickinson
10, Trooper C. Haldane
11, Trooper W. Hawkins
12, Trooper C. Hayhow
13, Trooper F. Jackson
14, Trooper R. W. Jackson
15, Trooper J. Lumley
16, Trooper G. T. MacLeroy
17,  Trooper W. Mendenhall
18,  Trooper M. Moodie
19,  Trooper J. Ross
20,  Trooper W. Swift
21,  Trooper E. Tarboton.

The following Natal Carbineers fought at, and survived, the Battle of iSandlwana:
22,  Trooper W. W. Barker
23,  Trooper W. Edwards
24,  Trooper C. Fletcher
25,  Trooper W. H. Granger
26,  Trooper A. Muirhead
27,   Trooper W. Sibthorpe
28,  Trooper W. Tarboton
29,  Trooper J. Whitelaw.


“Seven of these, separated from their troops next day, managed to escape, and, with one exception, reached Helpmekaar together and unshaken.”

Rather than seven, there appear to be actually eight survivors. Trooper Fletcher was wounded accounting for the one exception.

“I have only now heard of a gallant act performed by the straggler whose late arrival is well explained by his having, during the retreat, given up his horse to an officer who was exhausted.  Into this matter it will be my pleasing duty to enquire further.”

Wood had obviously only recently been made aware of Barker’s selfless act.  At no time is the officer identified in that statement, but Wood is going to investigate the matter further.

“These Carbineers, hearing at Helpmekaar, that their commanding officer, Mr. Offy Shepstone (whom I am glad to see here to-day), had got to Rorke’s Drift, immediately rejoined him.”

Those surviving Natal Carbineers who had reached the safety of the depot at Helpmekaar have heard that their commanding officer, Captain Theophilus “Offy” Shepstone and the remaining members of the Natal Carbineers who had taken part in the reconnaissance of 21st January 1879 and were at Rorke’s Drift.  They then made their way to Rorke’s Drift and rejoined the remaining Natal Carbineers.

Nowhere can I see anything within Wood’s statement which supports your contention.

My conclusion is based dare I say on several decades of reading, studying, discussing and writing on the subject of the Zulu War.  The conclusion I have come to is that your premise that Barker gave up his horse to his own commanding officer is without doubt - in my considered opinion - mistaken.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyWed Sep 14, 2022 9:46 pm

John, I sincerely respect the hard work and dedication a lot of people on here have put in over the years, and the knowledge they have gained, that includes you. That includes the knowledge they also pass on.
On that subject you only have to look at the posts and treads to realise some will automatically go on the defensive, and in some cases offensive, if you question anything relating to their work. Most don't, as you haven't , you have been kind enough to produce convincing evidence. I hope our debate has made things a little more interesting for some to read. Only yesterday I was thanked for the points on debate I was raising.

Thank for the post above, we both read the Generals address differently and all people will. What you stated in the paragraph relating to surviving Cabineers, I just don't see it reads that way, but that's the way you see it, and at that, we agree to disagree I think.
Cheers John,
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PostSubject: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 4:08 am

Hi Eddie
I have a copy of the Diary(s) written by J.P.Symons ( Jack ) and F. Symons ( Fred ) N.C , who describe the events of their time in the Zulu War , I can tell you that Capt Theophilus ( Offy ) Shepstone is out with Chelmsford , no doubt about it , Symons says so ! . It's George Shepstone who's Killed on the Western Slope of Isandlwana . Fred Symons states that once they arrive back at Isandlwana after Dark on Jan 22nd , his Captain... T.Shepstone ( Offy ) went around shaking hands with other officers saying... '' Goodbye , for we shall never see the sun rise again ! . Fred Symons states from that moment how he had lost confidence in his Capt , it can't be any plainer that that , Offy was certainly out with LC . With the Higginson matter in the book written by Denis Barker Great Grandson of W.W.Barker , Denis states the '' Official Line '' .....but what really transpired was the following which came from Denis's father as relayed to him directly from W.W. Barker ... Barker was worried about his good friend Hawkins and seeing a chap at the river who Barker thought might indeed be Hawkins he went to see , it was Higginson who told Barker who he was and what happened in the river , Higginson suggested that the young trooper help him up on to his horse and that they both get going as quickly as possible as there were zulus all around , Significantly there was no mention at all of Melvill and Coghill . My Grandfather responded by telling him that his horse was deadbeat and had already fallen twice on the way down to the river , and would never be able to get them both back up the hill , he suggested that perhaps Higginson should move off on his own but to wait for him at the top . An impatient Higginson then gratefully agreed . Dismounting , Barker helped the NNC Officer up onto his horse . Lt Higginson without a moments hesitation , then spurred the exhausted mount and took off at a gallop up the steep incline , Barker new he had limited time so he took off after them as quick as he could , once Barker arrived at the top of the hill he saw in the distance between the shrubs and Hillocks Higginson and his horse off in the distance ! , Higginson didn't wait at the top of the hill as they arranged ! . Denis Barker states '' My Father well recalled his Father's comments . They were certainly not complimentary '' . If you have Zulu Victory by Lock & Quantrill read it regarding Barker and Higginson .
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 10:46 am

90th

Thank you very much, my intention was not to disagree, it was to raise debate of an issue having read the newspaper article.
With General Wood's address, I just wanted to really confirm what he meant by is words. I was putting across an alternative view to raise debate and confirm the details, which I think we have.
I stated that the troops were under the Woods command. That is the ex military in me, as in my career it was instilled that any senior officer in the field at any given time, with changing circumstances could become your superior. I did not mean that literally, I know he was in number four column.

It was interesting getting to know the full facts of the ongoing situation at that sad time. We are so lucky that critical information survived for us to complete a picture. It a shame we don't have more, but who knows what may turn up.

Thank you once again, I appreciate what you say.

Cheers Eddie
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 11:08 am

Eddie
The answer you are seeking is quite simple. You are misreading Wood's address and combining two separate sentences.
You quote from it as follows:
"Only now I heard of a gallant act performed by a straggler, Trooper Barker, who's late arrival (at Helpmakaar) is well explained by having, during his retreat , given up his horse to an officer who was exhausted. Into this matter it will be my pleasing duty to enquire further.
These Carbineers , hearing at Helpmakaar that their commander, Offy Shepstone, whom I am glad to see at your head today, had got to Rorke's Drift, immediately rejoined him."
"These Carbineers" refers to the seven surviving Carbineers at Helpmekaar. Wood said that they had heard while at Helpmekaar that Capt. T. Shepstone was alive (they had no idea that Lord Chelmsford's force had been able to get back to Rorke's Drift without a fight). As soon as they had heard of Capt. T. Shepstone and the other Carbineers' safe return, they rejoined their unit. Wood was pleased to see them all re-united at his address.




ADDRESS.
yOU QUOTE FROM IT:
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 11:39 am

Thank you Julian

I appreciate and understand what the Generals address referred to now.
My point was to imply that it could be read different in the manner it was printed. Raising a point of debate, not to disagree, to unearth any irregularities that might have existed.

Eddie
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 12:20 pm

Eddie
Without blowing our own trumpet, there is a wealth of knowledge on this website (I began researching the ZW seriously in 1968) and it is easy to overlook the fact that some will not be as au fait with the personalities and events of the ZW. Sometimes we don't see the Wood (pun intended) for the trees.
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PostSubject: Edit an initial    Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 1:25 pm

Julian

Agreed fully.

But knowledge of the topic was not the point of my tread, it was to highlight how the article could be interpreted differently, combined with the inclusion of a document that stated Offy as present at the camp during the battle.

There are probably people reading the article and thinking it implies something else. I was hoping that some others would have joined in, particularly guests who wish to know more, rather than just read threads.
John has been great and very patient, throwing information and data at me, which in turn taught me a lot about a certain area of the operation. 
As well as me implying it happened differently, if read from a different perspective, I was raising debate to see if there were unknown facts to be raised. Hence me giving a scenario that Shepstone may have returned to camp with the cattle, as a member of the two Companies that were escorting it, obviously implying you would need horsemen to herd.

The other point I raised, was members of the NNH who survived on the crest with spare mounts. Raising another area of debate, implying that there were opportunity there to suggest a different course of events.

I have raise other areas of debate on other threads not knowing the complete picture, to instigate debate, as I find getting involved, right or wrong, is another way to learn.
It also makes it much more interesting, rather than just reading.

Cheers Eddie


Last edited by Eddie on Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 2:10 pm

Eddie
I realize that knowledge of the topic was not the point of your thread. The problem for forum members lay in your reasoning for the different interpretation which we all knew was incorrect. To us, it was impossible for Capt. T. Shepstone to have been at Isandhlwana because we already knew that he was out with Chelmsford. It was our failure to realize that you might think otherwise based on a misreading of Wood's address that caused the confusion.
I don't think there are too many on this site who might have thought as you did, hence the reason no-one else joined in.
John is a great asset to the site as you will find. He is also generous with his time and knowledge.
Re your comment about T. Shepstone's possible return with the cattle, it would have been beneath the Carbineers' dignity to be escorting cattle. Their job was scouting and follow-up operations. And there was just one NNC company (Capt. Murray i/c with Lieut. Pritchard as his 2nd in command) which escorted the cattle back to camp (you might read differently in some older books but those books are wrong). The NNC came from tribes which herded their cattle on a daily basis on foot - it was second nature to them. No 'Wild-West' horsemen needed.
Re your last point, it was surviving Natal Native Horse on the crest with spare mounts, not NNC. No-one, European or native got away.
Higginson definitely got his horse from Barker, was relieved of it when he reached safer ground and was re-mounted by other Europeans who eventually re-united Barker with his horse enabling him to escape.
Lastly, researching is more interesting than reading.
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PostSubject: Add text   Shepstone  EmptyThu Sep 15, 2022 7:13 pm

With respect Julian I don't think you have received my post in the manner it was conveyed.

When airing our views on this subject, most entry's were after midnight and there were only four registered members logged in at the time, two of which I had engaged with. To suggest the reason for no one agreeing with me "was that not many on the site would read it as I did", is not true. 
Not all visiting the site will have the knowledge you have and interpret the meaning of Wood's address as you, or I do.

But it is open to a different interpretation if you take the original article combined with another article suggesting Offy to be there. Factual or not.
I assume you meant John, 90th and yourself did not agree to my reasoning, not mostly everyone on this site, mostly I assume your meaning, The well read?

Originally I did state that the Natal Native Horse were on the crest, in an earlier post, but mistakenly entered the wrong initials on my last.

With that said, my tread was for the reasons already given.
I also have the utmost respect for John, yourself and the hard work you have both put in over the years.

With the greatest of respect Eddie
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyFri Sep 16, 2022 8:35 am

Eddie
I did not mean the well-read. By "I don't think there are too many on this site who might have thought as you did" I meant that the majority of forum members have been on this site for several years and would automatically know that T. Shepstone was out with Chelmsford. That's all. Apologies for any offence. Not my intention at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyFri Sep 16, 2022 12:20 pm

Thank you Julian.

Without labouring on.

But Julian, I also knew T Shepstone was out with Chelmsford,  I stated he was out with the reconnaissance. Whilst confirming that fact I raised a "what if" scenario, that's all.

Eddie
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyFri Sep 16, 2022 2:54 pm

OK Eddie, as I said, apologies for any offence.
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyFri Sep 16, 2022 4:10 pm

No need for apologies Julian. He could have went with the herd though Joker
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyFri Sep 16, 2022 5:04 pm

Not cattle. You must be thinking of that rare breed of 'Sheep-stone'.
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PostSubject: Re: Shepstone    Shepstone  EmptyFri Sep 16, 2022 6:22 pm

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