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 iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle

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wilmar148
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gardner1879

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iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle Empty
PostSubject: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Jan 31, 2023 6:51 pm

Natal Witness 2nd September 1880
Unfortunatly the top part of the paper hasn't been scanned properly and this impacts on the ability to read some of the text with the clarity of the words being very patchy.
I've included the whole article for those who want to attempt to decipher the whole thing as some words can be made out.
The important bit, a Zulu account of the battle is however readable in the fourth column below.

It is another account that states the Zulu's had not deployed on the morning of the 22nd but were sitting tight until discovered by Roberts and Raw.
There are other interesting bits such as the battle being described as taking part in two parts and the company of red coats that marched out to meet them and died.
There is also a Zulu time reference about the discovery though replicating it could be tricky as we don't know how big his hands were.

He states he belonged to the Ngakamatye which I am assuming is the Unqakamatye a regiment of the Umcityu.

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iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyFri Feb 03, 2023 3:55 pm

Kate
An interesting read and a good find. Can I ask whether you have the title of the article - it appears cut off at the very top?
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyFri Feb 03, 2023 4:03 pm

Hi Julian.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Next time I'm at iSandlwana I'm going to get up early and head up to the Ngwebini and try the three fingers time estimation against the rising sun. Won't be very scientific because I don't know were he was standing or what size hands he had but will be interesting none the less.

There is no title as it is the first story at the beginning of the news articles in that edition.
All it says above this is the title of the newspaper in gothic script. Before that are adverts.
Kate
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyFri Feb 03, 2023 5:43 pm

Pity. OK, thanks. Two fingers of whisky and three fingers time estimate...sounds good!
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iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyMon Feb 06, 2023 2:13 pm

gardner1879 wrote:
Natal Witness 2nd September 1880
Unfortunatly the top part of the paper hasn't been scanned properly and this impacts on the ability to read some of the text with the clarity of the words being very patchy.
I've included the whole article for those who want to attempt to decipher the whole thing as some words can be made out.
The important bit, a Zulu account of the battle is however readable in the fourth column below.

It is another account that states the Zulu's had not deployed on the morning of the 22nd but were sitting tight until discovered by Roberts and Raw.
There are other interesting bits such as the battle being described as taking part in two parts and the company of red coats that marched out to meet them and died.
There is also a Zulu time reference about the discovery though replicating it could be tricky as we don't know how big his hands were.

He states he belonged to the Ngakamatye which I am assuming is the Unqakamatye a regiment of the Umcityu.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thanks for posting this Kate, an interesting read.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyMon Feb 06, 2023 2:21 pm

Good afternoon Steve and a Happy New Year. Hope you are keeping well.
Glad you liked the article.
Kate
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steve cheney




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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyMon Feb 06, 2023 3:27 pm

gardner1879 wrote:
Good afternoon Steve and a Happy New Year. Hope you are keeping well.
Glad you liked the article.
Kate

All good thanks Kate, and all best wishes to you. Will you be attending the exhibition in London during July, or is that a silly question?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyMon Feb 06, 2023 3:28 pm

Yes I'll be there. Should be really good.
Kate Salute Off Topic
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Feb 07, 2023 5:20 am

Hi Folks. I have transcribed this article from the pdf. This account reached England and was summarised by ten or so newspapers. Isandula From a New Point of View. Hampshire Chronicle and Naval Record, 13 October 1880, is typical. The editor of the Natal Witness did not like Lord Chelmsford. Martin

Natal Witness
Pietermarizburg, Thursday, September 2, 1880

We do not think that we have ever been astounded by a bit of worse taste, nor more indefensible recklessness, than when the Cable told us that Lord CHELMSFORD, and again from a exalted place, heaped odium on the dead.

We have asked ourselves with pain whether it was possibly again necessary for us to recount the thrice-told tale of Isandhlwana; to reopen sores that long since might have been—with advantage to a certain patient—cicatrized. We had almost come to the conclusion that an end ought to ever be made of discussion about the Zulu business, the incompetent Generals it had brought into notoriety, the fears and flights of our Army, the folly and foolhardiness of the Staff, and the unutterable meanness, born of failure, that must vilify the dead in hope of justifying the living. The conclusion, however, arrived at is this, that if it be necessary to repeat a page of history, that page had better be re-written, even to the tedium of the public, rather that characters should be inscribed upon a false sheet by others who, desirous to obtain undeserved praises, seek to shift the obloquy of their own failures upon men whom they should regard in death, as well as in life, as comrades.

Our contemporary, the Diamond News, found it necessary, in the exercise of a commendable chivalry, to palliate, to lessen the abomination of the act attributed by Robinson to Lord Chelmsford. Its palliation, plausible though it may be, fails to convince us that the noble Lord in question was perforce a coward—morally only, of course—amongst the peers of England, than he was when he left his neglected dead to the carrion crow, the wolf, and the bald-headed vulture nigh the neck of Isandhlwana.

“It would perhaps be hardly fair to place too much stress upon the brief telegram in which Robinson summarised the debate in the House of Lords upon the unfortunate and ill-conducted campaign in Zululand, but the general estimation of Lord CHELMSFORD will certainly by no means be raised by the announcement that he had endeavoured to defend himself by shifting the blame of the disaster of Isandhlwana on to the shoulders of one whose death has rendered him incapable of defending himself.

After all that has been said and written upon the Zulu campaign it would be a mere waste of time to prove that our defeat was due principally, if not entirely, to the hopeless carelessness and incapacity of the General in command, or to report for the hundredth time that the camp might have been saved even at the last moment, if the dictates of common sense had not been frustrated by arrogance and imbecility in high quarters.

When we receive English papers containing full reports of the debate we may find it necessary to go thoroughly into the whole question with the view of exonerating the memory of the brave dead, at the expense of the reputation of the living. In the meantime we can confidently toast that the slander upon Colonel Durnsford will not remain unrefuted, either in England, or in Natal.

At home the whole corps of Engineers, which contains men who are equally distinguished as students of military science and as able penman, will rise as one body to defend a comrade of whom they are justly proud: while in the country where his last years were spent, and where, notwithstanding the hostility with which he was at one time regarded, all classes agree, in admiration for the heroism of his death, his defence may safely be left in the hands of a tried and trusted friend, whose abilities have gained him gained him a reputation far beyond the shores of Africa—the Right Reverend J. W. Colenso, Bishop of Natal.”

The Royal Engineers, as has been elsewhere stated, are a corps having a better general knowledge, a more extended experience, than perhaps any other in the services, and if it becomes a question whether another man shall be sacrificed for the salvation of the staff college “soldiery” from the contempt it deserves, the public will be bound by the edict that men of all ability against men of pretension must commence and continue to the bitter end.

Has the story of Isandhlwana ever been critically examined by the impartial expert? Has even one survivor of the last surprise and fight ever told them the story of the described surprise, as we might call it, of almost a whole Division of the British Army? This is war objective to him as he saw: and with certainty it was not in any way redundant to the orders of that General, or to the discredit of the man, unfortunate dead man, that has a soldier's key officer aspersions in his absence—in his grave—in the place from which no reply can come—

” I was of the Engakamatye regiment under NOMA Iwetu’s brother, chief Induna, one who headed men before. The white people crossed the river at Jim’s—Rorke’s Drift as word came to us from Isagas people that the Amasojah had taken their cattle and burnt the kraals, at the time that they themselves were living still, wondering if the King and the people of the queen would really be so foolish as to fight for nothing. These, not fighting people of SHAYO—gentle people, quiet ones so many of then, at least as survived, women and children, with some men, hid into the thorn country about the White Imvolosi. There they rested: but for their flight they would have been eaten up by those whom they had never injured. The word of this spread through the nation, messengers came through TYSINOWAYO, the head Captain of the district I lived in saying, from the King: “Come to ULUNDI.”

So there were assembled many regiments (the names of these would be wearisome to readers; we purposely excluded them): in three days after we had been picketed together, we were told to check the advancing whites. On the first night we slept at the White Imvolosi. Cattle were driven along with us the young men—little lads—carried corn (mealies and Kafir corn), they were the feed depot of the moving army.

We slept on the second night at Eznogeni. After having left that, we again rested at Engutu (hill), near Isandhlwana; killed cattle, cooked, eat, and slept. Of course we had scouts out, people to see. Of these, some came in after sunrise, and while they were reporting that there was a white army some mounted men were seen on the rise above us—they were black men; this was when the sun would be three-finger’s breadth from whence it had come from. Then scouts sent word from right to left along the army, which covered a large extent of ground, that soldiers were in sight, we must prepare. We covered a lot of ground down the course of the stream, Entambeka.

The day has been truly described as a dark day. The moon was dead. We had not thought we should fight for two days more, but if you are barked at or bitten, you must get up and bark or bite; my regiment the Ngakamatye, bit first. We crossed the stream, the mounted men still firing hardly on us, as they fell back towards the white camp of the white people.

We had not seen these white houses (tents) until, following those who fought us, we spread over the ridges to the place that the men that were shooting at us had come out from the ground swelled like a woman’s breast, had hidden us from the soldiers, who had never looked for us till they found us through the black men who first fired upon us.

Then, my regiment having to stop through the firing, lay down in the grass; but it was known that the army, —many regiments—were to the left and the right, turning round and round, but looking to the one place, so as to enclose it; they were making what you have asked me as our—“the horns”. They were enclosing everything, but they were not fighting. The circle we made was so large that it was like a hunt, and wild bucks ran from one side to the other, crossing in front of us. Then we again went forward, a company (two) impis of the red people came to meet us in the open—obala. They fired, but they died.

The mounted men got back to the white tents, but most, in fact all, of those on foot were killed. The regiments that had passed to the right were closing in, and we had but to walk on, or sit still, as we were told. It was slow; it was like as if there were two battles, with a long space between them. Those who went away from the first must have been they who crossed the Tugela. Of those who fought in the second battle, the taking of the white camp, there were few, if any, that escaped. When these two companies—the horse who went away and the white who fell—fought, cannon fired five times. None escaped on foot except those who went when the sun had not long risen.

All of the whites were not armed when we broke in on them, that is when we stood up and went in amongst the tents and the cattle and the wagons, when the great killing took place. Some of the white people, soldiers, were in their shirts; others came out of the white tents eating; they were not made (arrayed) together as soldiers prepared to fight; it seemed as if they thought we were done. We caught them sleeping.

My regiment did not go to Rorke’s Drift, neither was the army ordered to do so. The word of the Induna sent us back to Engutu, the same place where we had slept the night before. Early next day we started on our return to where the children and the cattle were. Some went to Ulundi. Some who had been at the fighting at JIM’S (Rorke’s Drift) said more soldiers had been passing into Natal, but they had taken nothing with them, were in a hurry, and would not fight.”

We have decided it necessary to make this statement public, not for any good it can possible do to poor lost Col. DUNSFORD, of his gallant comrade, PULLIENE, but that the public may at length understand the extraordinary character of the disaster of Isandhlwana. A few questions will, perhaps, illustrate some of our points more speedily than lengthened description.

Were not the foreloopers slain in front of their oxen? Was not the train actually about to move forward in column of route according to orders received at 12 o’clock from Lord CHELMSFORD? Had not the soldiers, believing that the enemy was beaten, been fallen out to dinner, as recorded in Pope’s Diary, found when the burial parties, months afterwards, reached the fatal field? Were not the horses found killed at their picket ropes?

Proving conclusively that the Engineer Colonel’s skirmish had come to what was believed to be, for the moment, a successful conclusion, and that the cavalry of the Camp had, as a rule, off-saddled their horses at some period between the morning fight and the midday disaster.

Is there not a living officer that can tell the last words that passed between SHEPTSONE and PULLIENE, when the latter protested his inability to obey Lord CHELMDFORD’S orders in the face of an advancing foe?

Again, how is it possible to blame Colonel DURNSFORD for failure in the defence of a Camp that he was not in for five minutes ere he rode out of it to his death? And which had through its mounted scouts, for all practical purposes, become engaged with the enemy at seven minutes past 8, two hours and two minutes before his division entered the place where they and he fought and fell so honourably.


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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Feb 07, 2023 5:43 am

Outstanding Wilmar148.
Thank you for doing this. Salute Salute
Kate
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Feb 07, 2023 9:03 am

Wilmat
I echo that. I've been trying to work out the gaps myself and it's been slow progress.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Feb 07, 2023 3:04 pm

Kate
Since this is a newly-found Zulu account I would like to include it in the next England's Sons. May I credit you with its discovery?
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Feb 07, 2023 3:14 pm

Course you can Julian, that would be smashing thank you and yes you may.
Kate Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Feb 07, 2023 8:30 pm

Great find Kate

I foresee another great debate approaching.
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wilmar148




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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 1:50 am

Thank you Kate and Julian your kind thoughts. It happens that I am a volunteer corrector for Trove Newspapers, the Australian online database, and suddenly saw a way of contributing here.

It is possible to approximate the time that the battle started for the Zulu warrior. Three fingers after sunrise is about 30 degrees of arc. Sunrise to sunset is 13 hours and 45 minutes on the 22nd January at the location. 30 degrees of arc takes about 2 hours and 15 minutes to traverse. Thus it was 5:15 am plus 2:15 or about 7:30 am.

The rest of the account has a ring of genuineness and credibility about it. It is odd that the complete account seems not to have been taken up in England, but only a summary. It might have been the source. The editor of the Natal Witness was Alfred Aylward, “ex-Irish Fenian revolutionary, diamond field agitator and Boer commando leader”. Maybe he was a bit too radical for polite English readers.

Could you tell me the database that carries the Natal Witness?

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 4:00 am

Pretty sure the discovery was made long after the '3 finger' estimate of 7.30. Raw had pnly just left the RD camp at that point, so rather impossible to have whisked his way to the Ngwebini/Mabaso area. If the author was in the Ngwebini valley the early morning sun would have very probably have been concealed by the hills to the West. The possibility does therefore exist that his "3 finger method" was taken measuring above the crest of the hill, that would put his timing as much later and starts to make a lot more sense in comparing with known times.
Never the less Kate good discovery. Salute


Last edited by Frank Allewell on Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 4:22 am

"It was slow; it was like as if there were two battles, with a long space between them."

Quite possibly a description of the "first" battle on the spur followed by the retreat of the two companies then the reformed defence line, north of the camp, and the "second" battle commencing.
A portion of the statement has been around for some time and the reference to the men being caught sleeping and eating. Its with out doubt accurate in the eyes of the narrator but not necessarily a valid comment. Ive long held the thought that this could relate to the cook's who were preparing food and would have been dressed either in white aprons or shirt sleeves, link that with the smell and sight of tables of food being prepared and it could equate with the narative and still agree with the known fact of the troops fighting in the front line and not eating breakfast/lunch or having a lay in.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Frank
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 9:35 am

Frank
My thoughts exactly on the timing - it depends on the whereabouts of the skyline - and on the eating/sleeping - which doesn't tie in with other accounts.
The two battles could indeed apply to events on the plateau/spur since it would be within the unQakamatye's compass. It could equally apply to Durnford's retreat across the plain, the Rocket battery's destruction, etc., depending on where the narrator was. I wondered for a minute if he were even referring to Isandhlwana/Rorke's Drift which are often described as the one being an extension of the other.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 11:23 am

There looks like a leading qustion in there where the interviewer is asking about the Zulu formation.
Looking at the answer you can almost hear the interviewer saying
"And were they like horns?"
Also I'm wondering if the company that "came out to meet us" was Pope extending out towards Durnford and being wiped out as they retreated. That area is strewn with small groups of low boulders but is relatively open.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 1:19 pm

Kate
Remember that the warrior was unQakamatye - he wouldn't have been facing Pope but more likely Wardell.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 1:47 pm

Virtually every thing he says can be justified and rationalised. Its a really interesting exercise.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 1:50 pm

Fair point Julian but I don't think there would have been clear demarcated lines between the different Zulu Regments after the battle started.
I think as they tried to avoid the hail of bullets and flank the firing line they would have merged together and in the confusion of the battle found themselves fighting amongst other Regiments.
And Wardell was near Pope in that part of the firing line.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 1:53 pm

As a tease. When Ntshingwayo signed the partition agreement and at the time, considering the position he held on the 22nd, would have been hard put not to have been interviewed. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 2:51 pm

Kate
Fair point.
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PostSubject: Isandlwana a zulu account describing the zulu discovery and battle    iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 08, 2023 11:22 pm

Agreed Frank , 7.30 far to early for Raw , he wasn't sent up the Nqutu range until after Durnford arrived ....which is anywhere between 8-10.30 depending on who you read ! . I'm happy to go with 10am ! . Nice piece of Doctoring by the Indian Groundsman in Nagpur , just so happens our opening Test begins there today ! .
90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyThu Feb 09, 2023 3:14 am

Hi All

Sorry I have been very busy had no hoiladays this year work all the way through.. Hoping to get back into the forum more regularly.

Kate you found something concerning the discovery.I would love to know more.

INKY
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyThu Feb 09, 2023 7:16 am

Morning Inks
Have a look at the article above. About half way down is an account by a Zulu from the unQakamatye.
Makes interesting reading as he talks about the early hours and being discovered by the mounted men.
Kate
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyTue Feb 14, 2023 5:16 am

Hi all

We slept on the second night at Eznogeni. After having left that, we again rested at Engutu (hill), near Isandhlwana; killed cattle, cooked, eat, and slept. Of course we had scouts out, people to see. Of these, some came in after sunrise, and while they were reporting that there was a white army some mounted men were seen on the rise above us—they were black men; this was when the sun would be three-finger’s breadth from whence it had come from. Then scouts sent word from right to left along the army, which covered a large extent of ground, that soldiers were in sight, we must prepare. We covered a lot of ground down the course of the stream, Entambeka.

He mentions the Ngutu Hills and mounted men on the rise above us, three fingers breadth. Well if this is true he is describing the approach of Raw and Roberts and he clearly states they where positioned on the Nqutu hills not the Ngbweni valley this confirms Barkers Discovery of this impi about 1 hour before the Discovery of Raw and Roberts.

Frank were is the Entambeka Stream, could this be the donga at the base of the Nqutu Hills remember it was raining for 7 days straight before hand that Donga would have had a good deal of water in it on the 22nd.

INKY
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyWed Feb 15, 2023 12:23 pm

I'm afraid that doesn't work Inky.
If I understand from previous discussions about your theory, you believe the Zulus were already deploying to attack with the right horn already in position in the early hours and parts of the chest hidden in dead ground before being discovered.

This account completely contradicts all of that. The Zulus are relaxing as a single entity. They are cooking, eating and sleeping.
Note when he talks about how the news went through the entire army. If they were broken up into seperate groups (and you can't hide the entire Zulu force on the Nqutu plateau) this would not be possible.

Also he specifically states they were black men who found them. (Robert's and Raw's men) Not a single white vedette.
He states that 'Soldiers are in sight we must prepare' This indicates the first discovery of the army was by Robert's and Raw's men.

Surley, as you say in your own theory, if part of the army had already deployed this would mean they had already started to prepare before the discovery.

Read in total the early part of this account suggests that the entire army was sitting in one place awaiting orders, and was then discovered.
The only area large enough for this is the Ngwebeni valley.
Kate Salute
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptySat Feb 18, 2023 7:57 pm

Hi Kate

I quoted from the 3rd paragraph on my 8:16am post its in that post he mentions eating and only 4 words before that he mentions being at the Nqutu which is not the Ngbweni. Anstey's map shows us were the Nqutu hills are.  We have 100 NNC and around 5 officers witnessed 5,00 Zulu going behind Isandlwana.

I have always said the discovery was made by Raw and Roberts at around 11:45 that is when the first shots where fired Baker heard them to his extreme left being near Itusi after climbing the notch at this same time

Bakers discovery was around 1 hour earlier before the first shots where fired these are two different instances, infact Barkers discovery proves that they are there under the Ngutu hills.

Raw and Roberts discovery prompted the first shots being around 11:45am
Bakers discovery of a large army happend around 10:45am.

Also one other issue  he mentions he belong to the Engakamatye regiment under NOMA Iwetu’s brother, I need to look this up but this may be another name for the umCiywa regiment which I have always claimed was in the valley at the time of the first shots.

One other point all this is not in sequential order he is going back and forth discribing the events on that day.

Uguku and an unnamed warrior of the Nokenke regiment mentions leaving the valley early morning with the understanding the inGabamakosi regiment being under attack only to find those gunshots came from Maqngeni they both testify in both their testimonys they moved to the Nqutu. this is confirmed by Barker at 10:45 proving the testimony of Uguku is true and correct.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptySun Feb 19, 2023 6:39 am

Hi Kate did more research the regiment the Zulu warrior who gave the above testimony is from the uKandampemvu Regiment this regiment arrived 30 to 45 minutes after the first action around Mkwene, ask yourself why ?

The uKandampemvu   was part of the chest this regiment at the time of the discovery was in the valley like my theory claims the discovery took place under the Nqutu hills.

One other thing no where does the testimony mentions being in the Ngbweni valley a very poor omission, Uguku goes in much more detail mentioning where they moved from and to and like I said a warrior of the Nokenke regiment confirms this.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyThu Aug 03, 2023 12:07 pm

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South London Observer - Wednesday 16 July 1879
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptyFri Aug 04, 2023 2:01 pm

It would be worth doing some comparison work with the account of uMhoti of the unQakamatye (uMcijo) and other uMcijo accounts to note the overlap.
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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle   iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle EmptySat Aug 05, 2023 3:53 am

The movie Zulu started with a reading of Lord Chelmsford letter to the Secretary of the State of War it is very interesting if you read the full letter Chelmsford states the discovery took place one and a quarter miles out and even mentions those in the camp were enticed out,  which confirms my findings that the discovery took place under the Nqutu hills the only difference I use stronger words "Durnford was lured out"

above is the full letter Highlighted is the section that confirms Chelmsford new the location of the discovery and what really happened

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