LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.

Thanks again for that super link Littlehand.
Obviously, I am not going to get it all read tonight, but I will read the whole book in time.
I think I have located the salient passage on p.169 where Brown writes about his brief tour of the wrecked camp and his recognising and saluting of Pulleine's body. Very moving.
Ian Knight has sourced from this book in his own Zulu Rising. What a book that is!

tasker224. Click on the title on the upper-left corner. When the page opens in the left hand column, Click on download copy. select PDF

Heres a thourght on the matter.

Did the NNC not acompany the British to help bury the dead?

If so could Pulleines body have been buried by the NNC?

I dout anyone in the NNC would have reconized him.


Regards DB14

Could be wrong, but I don't recall any members of the NNC carrying put burial duties at Isandlwana, certainly the NMP did. And the 24th were the last to buried as, Glyn wanted his men to have the honour of doing that.

There are another two conflicting accounts of the position of Pulleines demise.
21st May Charles Tatham of the Carbineers, " we found the bodies of Colonel Pulleine and Colonel Durnford lying amongst those of the Imperial Soldiers, Natal mounted police and Volunteers who made the last stand.

Captain Norse reported that that Col Pulleine with 40 soldiers was seen 800m in the rear of the neck. Inspector mansel of the NMP found the 40 with one body that could have been Pulleine.

So two more possible positions for him.

regards

Would anyone on here consider Hamilton-Brown's account of finding Pulleine's body any more reliable than that of the Zulu warrior who claimed to have killed him whilst he sat in his tent writing a letter?
And if so, why?

The man the Zulu warrior killed was an officer

There is no evidnce that it was Pulline.

It is just assumed to be, on no evidence other then the man was an officer.

Cheers
DB14

That's another one of the many mysteries. With regards to Brown, I tend to think in didn't really happen. It's odd that he couldn't remember where he saw Pulliene's body. Mind you help to sell his book.

Hi Littlehand .
I doubt it helped him sell his book , the book was published in the 1900's I think . If I remember correctly
25 - 35 yrs after the event , may have been longer !
cheers 90th.

Possibly HB was correct.

Looking at the movements that could place Pulleine.
First Melvill.
We know through various sources ( Essex for one) that Melvill was on the firing line. As Adj his place would have been with Puleine. We also know that he was seen twice by Private Williams, once with the flag going North and afterwards going South. The flag belt was found above the 1/24 camp so its fair to assume thats where the colors were kept.
Williams was packing up Glyns tent on top of the 2/24 tent lines.
Williams was also picking of Zulus with a rifle, so the advance was well under way, therefore IF Melvill had been given pemission to leave the battlefield he would have met Pulleine some where above the 2/24 encampment.
HB records that he saw Pulleines body whilst on his way 'back' from his own Tent area. That could have been any where from the 2/24 lines to wherever HB re joined the column.
Nourse claims to have seen a group of 40 bodies 800 metres west of the saddle and a body that 'could' be Pulleines.
Interestingly the only officer fighting ( as opposed to beeing a fugitive ) that we are aware of that far down the saddle slope is Anstey and he died down by the stream.
So if we take a stab in the dark and say Nourse was correct. That means Pulleine fought on for a long time, and could still have died in a position close to the road but on the western side of the saddle. HB would have passed this point rejoining the column. The column probably wouldnt if they had marched down the road itself.
A further digression would be of course Coghill reporting Pulleine had been shot, that would put him, Coghill as leaving the battle pretty late.

I know its all conjecture, but im open to having it torn to shreds.

Springbok9

Quote :

I doubt it helped him sell his book

It sold over 2,000000 copies

John

Are you serious? 2 000 000 ( We are not talking JK Rowling here )

Regards

Some good points Springbok.
Any account could "possibly" be correct, including that of the Zulu warrior. I know a lot of people dismiss Smith-Dorrien's memoirs for the simple reason that they were written long after the event, as was H-B's, but correct me if I have got this wrong, but I would consider SD a more honourable and reliable man than HB?
You say Coghill left the battle late Springbok. I would assume most of the fugitives left late in the day, Melville and Coghill, when it was claear the day was lost.

Hi John.
:lol!: :lol!: . I think you may have three 000's to many !. .
I wouldnt be surprised if Hamilton - Browne's book has sold more copies since it was reprinted by the
NAM .
cheers 90th.

2,000000 not that many taking into account how many years ago the book was published. What John didn't tell you. He has 1'999'900. Copies In his loft.

Good one littlehand .

:lol!: :lol!: .
cheers 90th.

And I got 99. So someone has the other copy.

Curling

Shortly after this I saw Lieutenant Coghill, who told me Colonel Pulliene had been killed.”

Private Brickly

“Lieut. Coghill afterwards joined us, and reported to the Adjutant that Colonel Pulliene had been shot.”

Given that Coghill would have been consentrating on saving his own life, i can't see a reason why he would make
up such a statment if it weren't true.

Hi all

Yeah that's true and it proves that he died before the fall camp ...



Pascal

Pascal
Actually no it doesnt.
Again its the conundrum of the time line. Once you fit Coghills departure from the Battlefield into the time line, there are a few cross references that enable that, it would mean a very early death for Pulleine. Again look at the timelines on the battle field itself then try anf fit the two together. Doesnt work.
Its highly possible that Pulleine was wounded, witnessed by Coghill and miss interpreted. A good marker is the meating with Curling/essex then the Smith Dorean meetings, stitch those together with Williams statement. All those elements give a really good time line.
There are pointers that Pulleine died on the Western slope of the saddle, if that were to be true ( all conjecture on my part Im afraid) then Coghill couldnt have seen it, he would have departed long before.

The whole battle is an amalgam of conundrums, riddles and contradictions so it would take a brave man to make any definative statement.

Have Fun

Then he died around what time and how ?



Pascal

Hi Springbok.
Agreed , very difficult to align anything timewise . That's the allure I would suggest of the battle itself . We will never know exactly what transpired on that day . Speculation = more speculation = confusion ! .
cheers 90th.

Bottom line is we dont know.
My personal theory and I stress its personal, is that he died in a stand on the Western slope, either as part of Ansteys retreat ( that would put his body to far from the line for Hamilton Brown to have seen it) or more likely the stand close to the kraal alongside the road. To locate that stand look around 400 metres from the saddle due west, there are a number of cairns arrange in an L shape. Indicates quite a number of bodies collected in the immediate vicinity.
Again my own theory: I believe there was a large stand in a cattle kraal on that western slope. Firstly proof there was a kraal is found on the James map and also the Anstey map.
Secondly there is proof of a large stand there from the sightings of Reynolds, Smith and Witt from Shiyane ( also puts a time stamp on it).
The presence of Pullein ? All conjecture on my part Im afraid, plus the fact there were 2 sightings (possibly three) of Pulleines body all suggesting it was close to the road.

Just a theory really :sleep:

Probably would hold as much water as being killed by Reverend Black in the drawing room with a candle stick :lol:

90th
Kiwis crushed yesterday

Thank you and good night.



Pascal

springbok9 wrote:

21st May Charles Tatham of the Carbineers, " we found the bodies of Colonel Pulleine and Colonel Durnford lying amongst those of the Imperial Soldiers, Natal mounted police and Volunteers who made the last stand.

I find this hard to believe. Symonds, Forbes and Norris-Newman were present when Durnfords stand was
discovered, and not one of them mention Pulleine. Newman certinly would. If there was a red coat officer
i would say it would most likly be Pullen.


Cheers

Mansle himslef says the body that could be Pulleine at Ansteys last stand was unrecognizable

"nobody could recognise it for certain."



Cheers

Pulliene's rank would have meant his coat / Jacket would have been blue. Wouldn't it.

I think officers had a choice of red or blue, like Coghill and Melvill.



Cheers

In the film 'Zulu Dawn', it showed Pulleine wearing dark blue, but then again, you can't rely on what films depict can you?

Martin.

Durnford was also shown with an American accent.

Cheers

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice one springy.

Oi tought it was an Oirish American accent.

Martin.

Always thought he would have been better portraying General Custer. In his last Stand.

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice one springy.

Oi tought it was an Oirish American accent.

Martin.

Well, considering that Burt Lancaster was an American....

(Although an actual Irishman played Chelmsford, the great Peter O'Toole)

A short article about the death of Pulleine's son

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Wednesday 14 August 1940

Natal Witness 17. 10. 1878
Colonel Pulleine has taken private residence and offices in West Street, East End, Durban.

Hi Kate
Pity there's no actual street numbered address , I'm sure we'd have gone for a look ! .
90th

West street east is now named Dr Pixley KaSeme Street and its a commercial area these days.

The 1939 Register simply gives Sandford House, Easby. You should be able to find it on Google maps.

Seems he didn't stay long.
Natal Witness 7th November 1878
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

90th
Sandford House, Easby is still there! On the B6271 on a road called Maison Dieu in the village of Easby, Yorkshire off a road junction.

Hi Julian
Now I'm confused was looking for the street number where Pulleine lived in West Street Durban , no mention of Yorkshire by me , doubt very much I'll ever travel to the UK again , airfares are just ridiculous from here in Australia .
90th

90th
Sorry. I was referring to Pulleine's address in Yorkshire in the article posted by Kate not the RSA one.

All good Julian , thought I'd missed something ! .
90th .