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» Joseph Williams (VC) ?
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» John Cook and his kidney problem
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» Acting Gunner J Mitchell HMS Active
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» Private 25B/968 Thomas John Moffatt 2/24th Regiment
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» Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard
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» Lieutenant E C Martin 87th Regiment
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» H M Stanley and George Henty
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» Private Lloyd 17th Lancers
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» 3rd Battn., Grenadier Guards, 1884
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» Frederick James Savery
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» General Richard Harrison Royal Engineers
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» Captain Reginald A J Talbot 1st Life Guards
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» Brothers Sears
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» Robert Standish Sievier.
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» W H Field bandsman
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» Sergeant 1257 James Perketh 80th Regiment
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» Butler, Lieutenant-General Sir William Francis Butler, KCB
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» Engineer G Aborn HMS Orontes
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» The Drunken "Draft" at Howick and the Mounted Infantry
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» All things Zulu war
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» Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January
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» Colour Sergeant 1681 William McLatter 2/3rd Regiment
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» Photograph of Archibald B. Milne, R.N.
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» Thomas Hallam drunk in court
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» Commandant Schermbrucker
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» Robert Elliott stabbed his wife
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» Lieutenant- General Sir Charles Mansfield Clarke.
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» John Kelly
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» Sergeant Major 1897 David Allan Strachan, 99th Regiment
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» Major A. H. Tylden-Pattenson, East Kent Regiment
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» W B Scott 91st Regiment?
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» John Ford Webster in court
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» Private Pyne the watchmaker
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 " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "

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littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 54
Location : Down South.

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyThu Nov 19, 2009 9:23 pm

Please tell me this is not true.

On 22 January they smashed into the British base camp at Isandhlwana; there, because of serious tactical errors by British officers on the spot and the imbecility of a supply system that required written receipts from the defenders for ammunition as it was being used, the Zulus slaughtered almost everyone.

I’m only asking this question because of what smith-dorrien stated in his Memories of Forty-Eight Years Service

"When I had been engaged at this for some time, and the 1/24th had fallen back to where we were, with the Zulus following closely, Bloomfield, the Quartermaster of the 2/24th, said to me in regard to the boxes I was then breaking open, " For heaven's sake, don't take that, man, for it belongs to our Battalion." And I replied, " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "
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ADMIN

ADMIN


Posts : 4304
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 63
Location : KENT

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyThu Nov 19, 2009 9:28 pm

Very good question Littlehand. But I doubt it happened. But I could be wrong. ??
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2594
Join date : 2009-04-24

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyThu Nov 19, 2009 9:40 pm

Littlehand. I have never heard of this, but the quartermasters refused to distribute ammunition to those not assigned to collect from their wagons.
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


Posts : 747
Join date : 2009-10-18

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyThu Nov 19, 2009 9:53 pm

I recollect reading that at the Battle of Isandhlwana how the fastidious British quartermaster decline to open up ammunition boxes, without a signed slip consequently contributing to the British defeat at the hands of the Zulus.

G.
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw


Posts : 553
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyThu Nov 19, 2009 10:46 pm

The whole issue of ammunition distribution, with particular emphasis on the quatermasters has been blown out of all proportion, and it has been churned over again and again.

The ammunition supply was not a problem, and it has been made a scapegoat for tactical error. Essex clearly reported that ammuniton was being distributed in Mule carts to the line, standard practice. The 24th had been campaigning over africa for three years, and reserve supply was always at hand.

So where does the hoary old myth about not giving ammo to colonials? or turning away native troops as it belonged to a particular battalion.

Until Durfords retirement the line was hoding quite well, OK three companies had retired from the Telehane spur, after expending 30+ rounds, the Lt's and Captains on the line would know this and would have called for ammuniton to be called forward, well before anyone ran out. Essex comments about mule wagons re-enforces the theory.

So, why did Durnford have a problem?, two causes, one a minor irritation as they could not find the wagons, which were still at the back of the saddle, and by this time that area was being pressed, or possibly even overrun, as the wagon park would have beed pretty big and scattered. THE MAIN FACTOR in all of this was not that QTRMRs were not issuing ammuntion because they were not from the 24th, THEY SIMPLY DID NOT HAVE IT.

Durnfords Men were armed with two principal (possibly three) weapons, the .577 Snider Mk3 carbine, and the .45 Westley Richards Monkey tail with its self consuming paper cartridge. (also the Calisher and Terry .50) The 24th would have no reason to carry this calibre, why carry something you will never need, when you have a nightmare of logistics as it is.

The only colonials who might have become a little tetchy would have been the NMR, The N Carbs and NMP, with thier Swinburn Henry's, firing in .450/577 calibre, The MH carbine round did exist only since 15.7.1877, the round was a smaller load 70g RFG2 and a 420 grain (as opposed to 85g rfg2 and a 480g bullet in the MK3 rifle round) . However in an emergency the two were interchangeable. With the lack of carbines actually in service (by Sept 1878 only 25,000 had been made) the Swinburn would have fired the Mk111 rifle round. In reality the demise did not occur until the right flank collapse.

The camps despositon was such that OK, the 1st battalions wagons were to the right of the road, on the far right of the camp (HQ view), but the companies retired in relatively good order, and the time they held out ammo was not a problem until they were forced into remote groups, even then the battle still raged. I discussed this with Mike Snook, hopefully this Jan when we do the fugitives trail agian we'll chew the cud on this a bit more, but I cannot see how little bits of paper would pose an issue.
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24th

24th


Posts : 1862
Join date : 2009-03-25

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyThu Nov 19, 2009 11:00 pm

Quote :
I discussed this with Mike Snook, hopefully this Jan when we do the fugitives trail agian we'll chew the cud on this a bit more, but I cannot see how little bits of paper would pose an issue.

Neil please post the findings of your discussion with Mike Snook. When you get back. I know its not untill Jan, But thats not far away.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8362
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 6:26 am

Neil

Ive just got back from Fugitives Drift Lodge. Right now the trail is hellish. Very overgrown and really hot. Take plenty of water. And enjoy the swim.

Regards
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw


Posts : 553
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 2:03 pm

Springbok: I hope they have saved me some gin, I'll play merry hell with Caskie if not.

This will be my 6th time on fugitives trail, did you go upstream to coffin rock midwater?,
Neil
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8362
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 2:37 pm

We crossed at the "Smith Dorean" pool, just off the sand bank. The water was pretty low and sluggish and nice and cold after the hike.
And yes plenty of G &T around the Boma. I also, at last bought Davids book and managed to get Nikky to sign it for me, thats one part of the collection I will treasure.
First time I visited the area was 40 years ago, actually camped on Blacks Copie. It was a whole different site then, the trees were non existant so it made wandering up on the Spur very easy. It was on that visit that George Chadwick told me the story of the missing company. He was convinced of it and showed me two rock cairnes, he claimed represented the dead. Sadly they are no longer visible. Have a look around with Mike Snooks see if you can find them.
Regards
See if Rob is still telling the story of the Uthulwana singing to the Rorkes Drift lads
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw


Posts : 553
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 3:04 pm

I read about Chadwicks cairns, and the subject has been discussed in depth on the RDVC forum, There is no doubt Mostyn, Dyson and Cavaye went up, but they did come down to slot into the line, so who was it? it cetainly was not a full company.

We did a full length of the Telehane Ridge last year, an there certainly is no evidence now of cairns. It is a perfect killing ground there isn't it, a gentle slop uphill, no cover for 4-500 yards. But they were firing at the right horn which was at extreme range for accurate shooting, but it was passing left to right down along the Manzimyama stream bed.


On another note, The Martini On the Wall at fugitives, I have had off and in bits in Davids workshop, It was completely gunked up with dirt, it now works perfectly, I gave him the P76 bayonet that's on it. I regretted that, whilst being goaded by Caskie to show the guests bayonet drill I got it stuck in the roof of the dining room!.


Back to FDL for the 7th time in Jan.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8362
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 3:41 pm

Neil
A Zulu by the name of Kasihayo made reference to the missing company in his statement. He did in fact say it was two companies.
Also Im pretty sure, really must get down to checking, Chelmsford said that a company went up but didnt come back down. Im afraid with all the trees and growth on the ridge I couldnt pin point the position George showed me. In may I spent a couple of days trundling around up there, all to no avail.
I met a Colonel ex Royal Hussars at FD, Im ex 11th Hussars, got him absolutly legless around the fire drinking "Katima", red wine and coke.
Lots of fun.
Sorry ADMIN I know im way of topic.
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


Posts : 747
Join date : 2009-10-18

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 6:35 pm

Neil
Quote :
The Martini On the Wall at fugitives
Is there any history to this particular M.H.
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John

John


Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 60
Location : UK

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 6:52 pm

Hi. Can anyone enlighten me as to the story with regards to the missing troop at Isandlwana? What was supposed to have happen?
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Ken Gillings




Posts : 205
Join date : 2009-10-20
Age : 75
Location : Pinetown, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 8:55 pm

Sorry to put a damper on the 'coffin shaped rock' story, but the rock that Higginson, Melvill and Coghill are supposed to have clung to is not the one shown in the photographs.
This rock was marked with a blob of white paint by George Buntting, the original owner of Fugitives' Drift.
As I've mentioned in a posting on the Rorke's Drift VC Forum, the bed of the Mzinyathi River has been altered considerably ove the past 130 years, and even more so after Cyclones Demoiona and Imboa, which hit KZN in the 1980s.
If one flew over the major rivers of KwaZulu-Natal, it was amazing to see the havoc that these two cyclones caused. It was as though a huge hose-pipe had flushed everything away. I'll e-mail the Admin Department photos I took of the rock in the 1960s and another that was taken a few years ago. There was no such thing as a 'coffin-shaped rock'; the real rock is clearly marked close to the Zululand bank, with the white paint still clearly visible.
George Buntting obtained this information from Chief Sothondosa's descendants, who still lived on the farm during his ownership. For many years, one of the Sothondosa people operated a boat to ferry people across the river to buy groceries at 'Pottie' Potgieter's store on the farm Petruskar (next to George's farm). It is generally accepted that Potgieter blew up the grave of Lts Melvill and Coghill, while some people maintained that local Zulus had done se because the stones on the grave were from an isivivane (Zulu lucky cairn - there are dozens that mark the various routes out of the river valleys; has anyone seen one? If not, let me know and I'll post a photograph).
Photo coming up!
Ken
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1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3315
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 9:01 pm

Ken

Could you post the photographs that you took back in the 1960's ?

1879Graves
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2594
Join date : 2009-04-24

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 10:07 pm

Ken. please post all the photo's as many of us will not get to see the area for real,
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ADMIN

ADMIN


Posts : 4304
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Location : KENT

" Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " Empty
PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 10:26 pm

Fugitives' Drift-Higginson's rock
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Fugitives' Trail-Higginson's Rock
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Photo's supplied by Ken Gillings.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 10:35 pm

Great Photo's Ken. So thats the rock where Higginson and Melvill clunk to. How far from the Rock did Melvill meet his death with Coghill.
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1879graves

1879graves


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 10:42 pm

Ken Gillings wrote:

This rock was marked with a blob of white paint by George Buntting, the original owner of Fugitives' Drift.
Ken

Great photographs Ken

What year did George paint the rock? So the rock now is no longer near water? How did George know that was the rock?

Sorry for all the questions as I do not know much about this rock apart from that what I see in pictures.

1879Graves
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptyFri Nov 20, 2009 11:14 pm

Hi 1879Graves. in Ken's post he says
Quote :
George Bunting obtained this information from Chief Sothondosa's descendants, who still lived on the farm during his ownership.

G

Great Photo's
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Dave

Dave


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 12:25 am

So on the 22nd Jan 1879 this Rock would have been nearly submerge below the water, with Higginson and Melvill holding on for dear life. So has the water course changed that much in a 130 years that the rock is now left high and dry. Or is it submerged at certain times of the year.

why was it nicked named coffin rock. And was this name given to it back in 1879.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 5:56 am

As far as I can remember the first mention of a "Coffin shaped rock was by Morris in TWOTS.
The distance between the rock and the graves of M & C is quite a few hundred yards. From Kens rock, very close to the Zulu bank there is a flood plan of around three hundred yards. Then a really steep climb for another couple of hundred yards. This really is a steep climb, after a gentle walk down the fugitives trail and an easy crossing of the river it took a massive effort for my son and myself to get up the hill to the graves. This up a dirt road. Compare this with the fugitives mad panic flight from the battle field, that horrendous crossing and then a climb through virgin territory, the grass would have been close to two metres in height. All this in uniform and heavy boots. To sit on the hill and look down the climb makes you realise what true desperation is all about.
As soon as I can figure out how to post photos........any advice??... I will scan in some photos taken in the 60's.

Speculation has it that the troops sent up the saddle had more of a battle than hither to thought and that a lot of troops did perish up there. General history says they came down with minimum casualties. The older historians like George Chadwick were firmly of the opinion that this was wrong and that the battle did actual start on the ridge.
Another topic that will, like most issues of the time, never reach conclusion. Chelmsford did however refer to the missing troop as did various Zulu survivors but there it stops. As we know Chelmsford wasnt there so who told him? Curling? Essex? Cochrane? Or Smith Dorien? If one of them then why isnt it mentioned in there reports or memoirs?
Any Input????? scratch
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old historian2

old historian2


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 11:47 am

Ken.
Quote :
It is generally accepted that Potgieter blew up the grave of Lts Melvill and Coghill,
As in explosives scratch
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: mssing company.   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 8:14 am

hi all,
I hope I"m not getting Dementia :lol!: .But in all the books etc etc I have read on Isandlwana and it is MANY , I cannot
ever recall anything on " missing company or companies ". Can someone please enlighten me . :) .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 9:58 am

90th

Chelmsfords report makes mention as does the statement by Kasihayo.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: hang it all , you dont want a requisition now.   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 10:36 am

hi spingbok9.
Thanks for your reply , but as you said , how would C"ford know ! , he wasnt there . As for the 5 surviving officers I have read
their reports and dont remember any of them mentioning anything of the kind scratch . Kasihayo is this the correct spelling ?
I"m afraid I dont remember him either 😕 . Where can I find his statement ?. Hope someone can shed more light on this
subject.
cheers 90th.
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ADMIN

ADMIN


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 10:48 am

Three photos that illustrate the Fugitives Drift and the route that M&C took. The first is the point they would have entered the water, now known as Smith Durians pool. The second is the flood plain and the third is from just below M&C's gravesite looking down to the drift and the area the flag was found.

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The photo below is showing Isandlwana in the background with the last stages of the Fugitives trail over the marsh area on top of Mpethe.

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Photo's supplied by spingbok9
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Dave

Dave


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 11:11 am

Springbok. Great photos. In the first photo we can see a rocky bed in the middle of the river its that were they crossed, and where Melvill was swept down stream.

Dave.
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littlehand

littlehand


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 11:26 am

So would the terrain leading down to the river have been dense with trees and bushes as shown in the photo. I can’t imagine men on horseback riding in a state of panic getting down too easy if at all. I don’t suppose any photos exist of this area taken back in the 1800s.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: hang it all , you dont want a requisition now.   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 12:08 pm

.
hi littlehand.
The vegetation and bush at or near Fugitive"s Drift is far worse now , than in 1879 . In fact all through zululand the
growth of trees , shrubs , undergrowth etc , has spiralled out of control in the last 50 yrs or so. One only needs to look
through IAN KNIGHT"S , THE ZULU WAR THEN AND NOW. Or quick reference old photo"s of RORKES DRIFT taken not
long after the war , there is hardly any vegetation compared to now. There is a photo showing the flight of the troops taken
from the Natal side of the river from Isandlwana and it is very barren , a photo from the same spot in 1990 shows the area
overgrown in thornbush , I am sure KEN GLLINGS can attest to this also. At least I hope he can :)
cheers 90th.
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ADMIN

ADMIN


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 3:14 pm

Photograph of Fugitives’ Drift in 1962.
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Photo Supplied By Ken Gillings

Personally I have always preferred Black and White Photographs. Seems to be so much more detail.
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ADMIN

ADMIN


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 3:30 pm

Neil. Can you do me a favour? While on you visit to Fugitives Drift in Jan 2010 can you try to obtain a photograph roughly from the same position as Kens Black and White photo?
If possible again in Black and White photo.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 4:29 pm

90th
There is a summary of the statement i refered to on this site go to usergroups/eye witness accounts.

Littlehand
Kens photo shows the dearth of growth, the gentleman in the forground is i believe the emminent Mr Bunting himself.
Ive picked up another photo from a similar angle, dont remember the photographer so I do apologise for not giving credits. I'll send it through admin.

Ive also found a photo of the 'Ultimation tree', it was taken two days before Hurricane Demoina hit and killed it. The new bridge over the Tugela has virtually wiped the site out completly.

Regards
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ADMIN

ADMIN


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PostSubject: Re: " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? "   " Hang it all, you don't want a requisition now, do you ? " EmptySun Nov 22, 2009 5:15 pm

Sitondos Drift
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A very old black and white photo, from I think George Chadwick plus a map of the area, for the members to orientate themselves the area shown as Coghills crossing is the sand bank in my earlier photos.
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Photo's and text Supplied by Springbok9
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