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old historian2

old historian2


Posts : 1095
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PostSubject: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyMon Jan 18, 2010 9:26 pm

Just out of curiosity, On the British side. Does anyone know exactly how many survived the Battle of Isandlwana? And how many of them were officers, and how many had horses.

If possible the location where the officers should have been, had they not escaped.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: list of names and ranks   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 6:22 am

hi olh2.
I dont think anyone knows the exact answer as there were Civilians. ie wagon masters , drivers and Natives of which
the records werent 100 % . I can tell you 5 imperial officers survived , Cochrane , Curling , Smith - Dorrien , Essex
and Gardener . They were mounted and they were all wearing the Blue Patrol Jacket as far as I am aware.
The Noble 24th by Norman Holme , gives the survivor number at 65 named and says 9 men from N Battery ( no names)
17 men from number 1 sqdn mtd inf ( no names ) and a question mark after the number 17. I am waiting on J. Whybra"s
book dealing with the survivors of Isandlwana and will post any more details I find . Dont know how many escaped
on foot if indeed any were lucky enough to do so .
cheers 90th.
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garywilson1

garywilson1


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 7:58 am

I think Mike Snook' book HCMDB has a list in the appendix but i am not sure and i dont have it with me here to check ?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 9:43 am

From memory, Adrian Greaves mentioned a figure of 55 europeans including 5 officers.
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keith4698




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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 2:09 pm

Mike Snook lists the names of 18 officers including 13 volunteer, 26 Regular and 32 volunteer other ranks and 5
civilians

Regards

Keith.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 2:39 pm

OH2
The only genuin assigned front line officer was Curling. In terms of his position or location on the battlefield, he had retired with the guns. Essex and Cochran were being used as runners consequently were all over the battlefield. Smith Dorean was helping with ammo distribution towards the end and would have been between the front line and the saddle, as was Essex. Gardner had arrived with instructions from Chelmsford and would I assume been close to the HQ area.Coghill left long before SD and Melvill, always harboured suspicions about him.
In this wonderful day and age of 3d graphics it would be interesting for someone more gifted than I to do a 3D model of the battlefield placing the various characters.
Hope that helps.
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old historian2

old historian2


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 6:53 pm

Thanks for the replies. I can start to compile a list with those names posted. Doe's anyone know the name of the last presumed person to have left Isandlwana, from the British side.
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1879graves

1879graves


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 7:39 pm

Hi OldH2

I though you might find the following of interest to you

LETTER OF DRIVER ELIAS TUCKER
Dear Father and Mother.
It gives me great pleasure to think that I am alive to write to you. We have a severe cutting up on the
22nd of January .Lord Chelmsford went out with the column about three o'clock in the morning; he went about fifteen miles from the camp to attack the Zulus-to Isinlonana or the Lion's Mane. They left 2 guns and 65 artillery , five companies of the 24th Regiment, in all about five hundred men. The Zulus watched the column out of the camp: they came into camp by thousands, about seventeen thousand Zulus. They came on the came like wild beasts, which they are.
We played well on them with the two guns, and the infantry fought well cutting roads through them. We held the field from half past eleven in the morning until three o'clock in the day. We killed
twelve thousand Zulus, but they were too strong for us. They came right around us, and massacred every one; there are only twelve left to tell the tale. Out of sixty-five artillery only four remain, and I. am one of the four-Sergeant Costellow, Lieutenant Curling (that's my master) and myself and Gunner Green. We four had a horse each, and we charged right through the Zulus and cut our way out. I was in my shirt sleeves carrying ammunition to the guns.
We lost everything in camp; they burnt everything that would burn. All our waggons and carts we had for ammunition they filled up with dead white men. They cut everyone up, and took his heart and laid it on his breast, and put his right hand in where they took his heart from, and put all the skulls up in a heap. I expect you will see the massacre in the papers before you receive this. I could not write before. We rode a hard gallop from the time we cut our way out of camp until four next morning, and we found ourselves in sight of Helpmakaar, and that gave us fresh strength, hoping to find some help there; but when we got there, there were only six men on guard belonging to the 13th Regiment. We frightened them out of their lives. There is only one store in Helpmakaar, and that was filled up with stacks of corn. We got that out and barricaded all the doors, and cut some loopholes through the sides and ends to fire through. We were afraid they would attack us here, but they have not been.
Dear Mother, still there is hope for us, for our relief came this morning. A lot of Engineers and the 4th (King's Own) Regiment marched in here; we gave them three hearty cheers. Dear Mother, I must now conclude, as they are sending out a mounted orderly tonight, and I want these few lines to go with him. I have not received any letters from England since October. The Zulus have taken possession of all the houses on the road and burnt them down. Please to drop a few lines to London to Tim and my sister to let them know that I am living and well, for I cannot get paper to write on. I gave a shilling for this envelope and paper, and it is cheap at that. We cannot get paper or envelopes for love or money here in the midst of a wilderness and savages. Please to give my kind love to all inquiring friends and tell them all that I am alive and well, only a slight wound on the back of the hand. So good-bye, and God bless you all. They have sent to England for more troops, and we shall pay the Zulus out for this yet.
Letter by 1387 Driver Elias Tucker, N Battery, 5th Brigade, Royal Artillery to his parents in Plymouth dated the 28th January 1879 and published in "The Western Morning News" on 28th March 1879.
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littlehand

littlehand


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 8:49 pm

I would like to know how many were on foot. There is one story i read where one of the survivors run all the way keeping up with those on horse back.

Forgot to ask! Do you think the officer's that fled, only done so when all the men under their command had perish.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: list of names and ranks   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 12:02 am

hi olh2 .
Well my copy arrived yesterday , This is what you need as it is inexpensive .
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


I can tell you he lists 87 names and a short bibliography on all of these .
Also 3 other names who are possible Isandlwana survivors , with accounts and cross - references.
Also lists 14 african survivor accounts , I have only had a quick glance through the book , he also
mentions which way the survivors fled , out of the 101 names and accounts only 3 seemed to have
escaped by the road to R.D. All the rest have fled by way of fugitives drift . Olh2 save your pennies
as this is what you require . I'm sure you wont be disappointed . But it is basically a book of names
and numbers and where the accounts of these people can be found . With brief descriptions of their
escapes and who they encountered in their flight . If I had known how much detail was in this book,
I would have bought it when it came out !.
cheers 90th.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2594
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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 8:10 am

90th I purchased this publication sometime ago. I was disappointed with the presentation. Text on A4 paper, photocopied and bound with a platic ring binder.. If someone can present that, then he is not taking the subject seriously. Just trying to make a Quick buck.
Of course it may well have changed by now.
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garywilson1

garywilson1


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Location : Timisoara , Romania

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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 8:13 am

But surely the content is more important than the presentation ?
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: list of names and ranks   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 8:33 am

hi ctsg.
Mine came in the same condition , I was a little disappointed until I flicked through the book and I am
more than happy with the contents, as Gary said its what"s inside that counts . Same as
people really :lol!:

cheers 90th.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 8:43 am

Presentation is what sells the book.
The problem is you don't know what you get until it arrives. Like me 90th admits he was disappointed, Ian Knight and Mike Snook are serious about this subject you can tell by their books.
The book in question is what it is, a photo-copy and a poor one at that.

There is nothing in there, that is not in the Noble 24 and they fell like stone.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: list of names and ranks   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 11:35 am

hi ctsg.
I disagree strongly , I have " The Noble 24th " and " THEY FELL LIKE STONES " .
on page 379 of noble 24th are the European survivors of Isandlwana . From the book word for word.
under 3rd Regt NNC . Lt"s Adendorff , higginson , vaines , Sgt- Maj . Williams , 2 NCO"s .
In Whybra"s book as an example lets take Sgt- Maj williams .

Sgt - Maj . J. WILLIAMS 1st Batt 3rd NNC
No Account , Mentioned in the report of LT. Higginson NNC #
Escaped via Fugitives Drift to Helpmekaar .

# W.O 32/ 7713 / 079 / 1588. ( formerly 33 / 34 p.276 )
Now to me that is a lot more information , J. Whybra"s book is like this WITH ALL THE SURVIVORS .


" They fell like stones " is also only a list of names , both books are still important , what I am trying to say
is Whybra"s book has much more info on the survivors .
It depends on what you want , names only , or the names and references from where information was gathered.
To me , as I said before I am delighted with the contents and for 12 quid it is great value .

cheers 90th.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 1:40 pm

90th. Ok point taken there are some names not listed in the other’s publications mentioned.

I have quite a large collection of Zulu war books. Which if I must say myself looks quite impressive. Unfortunately the photocopy in question makes it look all so unsightly. Lets just say, I was not expecting a photocopy, I was expecting a book, and I’m not saying I would not have purchased the photocopy but I would have expected to pay £5.99 or they’re about. I’m not disrespecting the writer, but he needs to make it clear, it is not a book it’s a pamphlet.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 1:46 pm

Have to agree with both camps. I dont consider it as a book, rather an important reference source. Much like the huge pile of print outs and photostats collected, and loose leaf filed, over the years.
Cant fault the research Julian has put in.
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24th

24th


Posts : 1862
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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 3:08 pm

As it states "This work is aimed at the connoisseur studying the Anglo-Zulu war, in particular those interested the battle of Isandhlwana (22 January 1879) and the defence of Rorke’s Drift (22/23 January 1879).

An invaluable reference work that will be only published in limited numbers. softback. Now in its 6th Edition.

It doesn't say Hardback or paperback it says Softback. Read before you buy !!!
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old historian2

old historian2


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 3:19 pm

Blue Peter Time.

Take an A4 piece of paper, place on some cardboard, cut the cardboard to the to fit the A4 paper, Then take Julian’s cover sheet stick on cardboard. Do the same with the back cover reassemble the book on to the ring binder; there. You now have a hardback.
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24th

24th


Posts : 1862
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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 3:21 pm

CTSG. Only do this under adult supervision. :lol!:
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyWed Jan 20, 2010 4:06 pm

Of course the problem with this sort of publication in this format is that it can be photocopied put on to a ring binder and sold on places like e-bay. I don’t think there is anyway of telling it’s not the original.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyThu Jan 21, 2010 10:37 am

Oh2 / 24th
Considering the constraints CTSG has put on him after some harsh exchanges a few weeks ago, the comments now being directed at him would be akin to "putting the boot into the defenceless", not so?
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyThu Jan 21, 2010 3:05 pm

Well said springbok9. Idea Is this not a form of bullying.

G
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Saul David 1879




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PostSubject: Re: List of names and ranks.   List of names and ranks. EmptyThu Jan 21, 2010 3:46 pm

CTSG why don't you contact Julian, and ask him about 'England's Sons'
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