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» Lieutenant Nicholas H H Sadlier / Sadleir Jackson 1st Dragoon Guards
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» Prince Imperial model for a statue
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» iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle
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» Captain E Parsons
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» Rorke's Drift by Those Who Were There
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» Private Richard James Kelly 99th Regiment
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» The fate of deserters in South Africa
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» Sergeant 1574 Fred G Style / Styles 17th Lancers
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» Sergeant Armstrong 2nd / 3rd 60th Regiment The best shot in the British Army
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» Deserters Eastney Edwards Condon 1st Dragoon Guards Knowland Purnell Simmons Dousben 58th Regiment
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» Private 425 John Coates 3/60 Regiment
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» Sergeant Bates / James 1st Dragoon Guards
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» Major Arthur Grey Hazlerigg 2/21st Regiment
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» Sergeant Major 2322 J Wilkins Private 964 E St Clair Major A F Terry 3/60th Regiment
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» Private 25B/947 James Noot / Noote 2/24th Regiment Mounted Infantry
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» Sergeant 2941 William Johnson 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards
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» Colour Sergeant 886 Joseph Wardle 2/4th Regiment
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» Royal Marine Light Infantry, Chatham
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» Trooper Borain Natal Carbineers - Isandlwana Casualty
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» Burial of the dead at iSandlwana
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» Departed Heroes W H Drummond, Petras Lafras Uys, Captain Gubbins memorials
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» Private 1561 Henry Fuge 2/24th Regiment
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Jan 26, 2023 11:34 am by rai

» Private 1726 T Powell 1st Dragoon Guards
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» Colour Sergeant 45/719 Henry Dowsley Stacpole 2/3rd Regiment
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» Lieutenant James Stewart Douglas O Battery 6th Brigade Royal Artillery
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» Driver 14678 Joseph Woodham 30th Company Royal Engineers
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» Isandlwana Essay Help
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 10:14 pm by Julian Whybra

» Natal Mounted Police officer and his strange gait
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 8:34 pm by SRB1965

» Natal Witness iSandlwana account in a book review of History of the Zulu War by A Wilmot
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 6:54 pm by Julian Whybra

» Casualty lists for all forces during the AZW
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 6:37 pm by Julian Whybra

» Mounted Volunteers Ixopo Mounted Rifles, Weenen Yeomanry, Newcastle Mounted Rifles
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 6:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 6:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Quartermaster W P Hellet Natal Hussars
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 5:11 pm by Eddie

» Private Henry Carter 3/60th Regiment Gingindhlovu account
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» Captain Charles Adrian Gough-Becher 1st Kings Dragoon Guards
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 Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.

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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 11:39 am

Hi Julian

May be I did mean contemporary headlines but you know exactly what I mean. To some it may seem that you are attempting to make me look a fool, but don't worry I'm not offended.
You know exactly where I am coming from. That Over the years, headlines would have mentioned Adendorff in SA at some time, concidering he was seen to be a double hero as he has been portrayed.
Our troops were referred to in government headlines of the day.
The headlines I listed was not just about VC recipients, I mentioned other ranks return, Lyons and others, non VC participants.
I could have mentioned more OR's that were in the papers over the years, Jubbins, Evan Jones/Cosgrove etc, for instance. And also, why just OR's, Adendorff was a Lieutenant.
You know what I'm getting at and there is nothing there in the SA newspapers that I have seen that mentions anything about him. Not even that he received a medal or that he was one of the savours of the Colony.
Where is the memorial to this double hero of Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift , surely that would be inscribed on his headstone, memorial, or in records somewhere. But strangely nothing, just  disappeared from all records for some reason.
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 12:28 pm

Not at all Eddie. Apologies for any offence. It was unintended. My point was that responses can only be offered to what was actually written. Not to what was not. It is very easy to intend to write something one way but for it to come out another. I am as guilty of that as the next man.
On a separate matter but related to your last point I might equally ask where are the statues to Pulleine in Brecon or Durnford in Chatham. The answer is that no-one wishes to memorialize a disaster. And that answer will apply to Adendorff too.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8396
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 12:49 pm

Not a single memorial to Durnford at iSandlwana, no even mentioned.
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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 12:56 pm

Hi Julian

Point taken.

It would be great if we could find something in SA newspaper records of his actions during the two battles and after.
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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 1:01 pm

Hi Frank

There were far to many that fell to have monuments to them all at Isandlwana, but are included in many memorials elsewhere.

I was referring to the survivors being mentioned after their duty and in later life.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8396
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Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 1:31 pm

Eddie I had the oportunity to talk to one of his descendants a few years ago. it was a very enlightening couple of hours as he descibed his grandfather as a very quiet introvert. According to him after the battles he wanted away from the British and tranquility on the farm. Thats where he was found by Walter Stafford. So as with Bromhead and to a degree Chard they wanted to disapear into the background.

Frank
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8396
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Location : Cape Town South Africa

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 1:33 pm

Eddie
Exactly my point: " There were far to many that fell to have monuments to them all at Isandlwana"

Frank
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8396
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Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 1:57 pm

Eddie an interesting point here was a letter published at the time where the writer was called a 'Poltroon' because of his actions in the retreat. It was identified as Adendorff by Ian Knight in his epic Zulu Rising, later disputed in an essay by Julian Whybra. My point being that there were articles written, some very obscure ones at that

Cheers

Frank
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
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Location : Billericay, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 2:24 pm

Eddie
Just to be precise - it was misidentified as Adendorff by Ian Knight in his epic Zulu Rising, later shown to be Robert Hall in my essay of 2012.
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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 9:54 pm

Hi Frank

When speaking to the descendant of Lieutenant Adendorff did you ask the obviously questions we would ask, like:
where was he buried...
Is there any memorial...
Is there any letters or memorabilia within the family...
Does anyone in the family have his medals..

I was just wondering if you were able to obtain any other information about him.
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gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2842
Join date : 2021-01-04

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 10:17 pm

And then proved post Volume 1 2012 not to be Bob Hall by a subsquent piece of correspondance that has come to light.
For confidentiality reasons I am not at liberty to divulge the source but I think you are aware of this Julian.
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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 10:22 pm

Julian
Your post 12:28pm "The answers that no-one wishes to memorialize a disaster. And that answer will apply to Adendorff too."

You referred to two things:

1. The memorials to the dead. Some may have not wished to memorialize a disaster but others did. There are many memorials to the killed in action in at Isandlwana, RD, in churches or chapels, on memorial windows, and at battle sites, etc,

2. Memorials to those that survived, gravestones, where almost all inscriptions include reference to their defence at those battles.

The point I am aiming at is, where is Adendorff's grave and inscription or even a memorial if there was one.
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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyThu Dec 22, 2022 10:37 pm

Hi gardner1879

So, the mystery continues.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8396
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 1:15 am

Eddie
The answer to most of your questions is yes. Plus many many more but Im afraid you will have to wait untill the book comes out. Very Happy

Frank
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8396
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 7:37 am

Eddie
I have seen the notes that Kate refers to and we do agree to differ. Very Happy Very Happy But that again will have to wait for a while.
sorry

Frank
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 9:14 am

Kate
I was not aware of the content of your post  and obviously cannot comment on its veracity as I have not seen it.  I would of course be interested to do so but one central point I'll stick by: the Brave Fugitive was NOT Adendorff.  The facts simply do not fit.  And I note Kate that you do not write that it was proven that this was not so.  The facts do however fit what is known of Robert Hall's movements so seeing will be believing ultimately!
I shall look forward to seeing any future evidence and will be happy to amend any identification re Robert Hall.  
Presenting a case on which the evidence cannot be viewed is of course not really on; do you have any idea when this evidence might be available for the general readership?


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 9:17 am

Eddie
Yes, there are many memorials to the individual kia.
But no there are no national memorials to Isandhlwana per se.
Adendorff is I imagine buried somewhere near the family farm.
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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 9:44 am

Hi Frank

The topic of the Anon letter has been hotly debated earlier in the thread, and it was suggested that it may have been Hall and not Adendorff as the author due to timings, backed up by Julian's essay.

Without divulging to much information, can I take it that the book will be written in defence of Adendorff being at both battles.

Eddie
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8396
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 10:13 am

Hi Eddie
The note Kate has refered to isnt the Anon letter debated earlier in the thread.
No the book is a collection of articles, much the same as my last book but wider ranging. In regards to Adendorff I have original letters etc but the material will speak for itself.
In terms of the material out there already I am firmly convinced that he was at both battles.

Regards

Frank
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 10:25 am

Kate / Eddie
When I replied to Kate at 9.14 today I was under the impression that Kate had seen some new piece of evidence which I had NOT seen.  I now find that I HAVE seen it some time ago, transcribed it fully (including the 'difficult' bit), and found that it fully endorses my findings in the 2012 essay re The Brave Fugitive's identity being Hall and not being Adendorff.
Kate, I cannot think why on earth you could find anything in it to oppose that view.  This cannot be aired in public for obvious reasons but if you'd like to e-mail me privately I'd be happy to discuss it with you under Chatham House Rules.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2842
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Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 11:32 am

You have an e-mail Julian
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 23, 2022 3:16 pm

Eddie
The docs in question are listed under 80D p. 57 in England's Sons 9th ed.
Kate
Thanks. Arrived!
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Dec 30, 2022 1:28 pm

I have been in correspondence with an Adendorff descendant (he had no children of his own so it is through his step-family) and can tell you that Gert Wilhelm Adendorff died in 1917 and is buried in the town cemetery of Schweizer-Reneke near Bloemhof.
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Eddie




Posts : 486
Join date : 2022-07-13
Age : 63
Location : Newport Wales

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyFri Jan 13, 2023 10:19 pm

Hi All

Just to add to Julian's findings on Adendorf and his Step family

OUR MARGETSON FAMILY & ANCESTORS

Gert Wilhelm Adendorff 1848 - 1917 (aged 69)
His claim for war loss related to 2 mules and one horse requisitioned by the Transvaal government troops and a Scotch cart requisitioned by the British troops after surrender. Claimed £68 for his losses, but £10 disallowed, amount paid £58.( Photo on file)
In 1894 he was at Proes street, Pretoria.
In 1899 on marrying he was of Elandsfontein Dist, Heidelberg.
In 1905 he was living at 61 Potgieter Street, Pretoria.

His occupation is listed as Diamond Digger as per death certificate.
Wife: Hester Catharia Grobler 1856, Roodepoort Dist, Waterberg, Transvaal, Republic.
Marriage: 2 October 1899 Pretoria.
He worked as a Gold Commissioner for ZAR for 23 years.

Eddie
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Julian Whybra




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Join date : 2011-09-12
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Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptySat Jan 14, 2023 11:47 am

Brian Margetson has proved to be very knowledgeable and helpful where Adendorff is concerned.
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3272
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C. - Page 10 EmptyTue Jan 24, 2023 6:25 pm

Kate, I have now sent you directly by e-mail a full reply with attachment which you should have in your inbox.
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