WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn quote: “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Best Zulu War Books
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyWed Nov 25, 2020 12:00 am by 90th

» George Toplis
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Nov 24, 2020 4:46 pm by 1879graves

» Prince Imperial
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Nov 20, 2020 7:01 pm by Tim Needham

» 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, 1875
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Nov 20, 2020 2:17 am by 90th

» Lt Chard and his sighting of Zulu enemy at Isandlwana
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 10:56 am by Frank Allewell

» Rorkes drift Hotel
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyWed Nov 18, 2020 10:46 am by Frank Allewell

» Information on Harry Boik Trooper 141 NATAL MOUNTED POLICE
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySun Nov 15, 2020 5:39 am by barry

» Lieutenant Chards anxiety-inducing-notes-Battle-Rorkes-Drift
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySat Nov 14, 2020 11:58 pm by ADMIN

» John Courtenay Chasman CHADWICK - 1st Class Interpreter
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySat Nov 14, 2020 2:46 pm by RoryReynolds

» S/Sgts Appointments/Ranks
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Nov 10, 2020 10:45 am by John Young

» Punishment - FLOGGING
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyMon Nov 09, 2020 10:04 am by Frank Allewell

» Isandlwana, Last Stands
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySun Nov 08, 2020 1:21 pm by 90th

» HMS Active RMA and Kroomen duties
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyMon Nov 02, 2020 7:55 pm by Herbie

» Henry William Longcast, Interpreter.
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Oct 27, 2020 9:29 am by John Young

» Officers of the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment circa 1868
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyMon Oct 26, 2020 11:31 pm by John Young

» Famous death?
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySat Oct 24, 2020 3:38 pm by Frank Allewell

» N/5 Battery RA at Isandlwana
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySat Oct 24, 2020 10:20 am by SRB1965

» The Pickets on Mkwene
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Oct 23, 2020 11:30 am by Frank Allewell

» Durnford's medical officer
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Oct 23, 2020 9:51 am by Julian Whybra

» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyThu Oct 22, 2020 5:37 pm by Danny1960

» The 'other' fighting clerk - Corporal JH Mayor, N.N.C
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySat Oct 17, 2020 5:07 am by Frank Allewell

» Somerset soldiers killed at Isandhlwana
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Oct 16, 2020 9:08 am by Julian Whybra

» "The Wiltshire Regiment 1756-1914"
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptySat Oct 10, 2020 4:46 am by kaveman

» The Unknown Warrior Westminster Abbey
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyWed Oct 07, 2020 3:06 pm by ADMIN

» Lance Corporal Robert Eaton NMP
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Oct 06, 2020 2:12 pm by Julian Whybra

» Lieutenant Anthony Kingscote, HMS Tenedos
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Oct 02, 2020 3:31 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Sir Robert Gordon Gilmour
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyThu Oct 01, 2020 4:22 pm by 90th

» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyThu Oct 01, 2020 11:27 am by 1879graves

» Lieutenant Frederick Streatfield Pelly, RN
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Sep 29, 2020 4:09 pm by 1879graves

» KEYNSHAMLIGHTHORSE GRAVES WEBSITE
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Sep 29, 2020 8:08 am by ADMIN

» Regimental numbers
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Sep 25, 2020 12:55 pm by Frank Allewell

» Colour of Lord Chelsmford eyes
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyFri Sep 25, 2020 8:05 am by Simonsole

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am by John Young

» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 6:47 pm by Digger

» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 6:47 pm by ADMIN

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Rorke's Drift BBC Radio 4
Top posters
90th
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
littlehand
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
ADMIN
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
1879graves
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
rusteze
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
John
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Frank Allewell
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
90th
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
John Young
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
SRB1965
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Herbie
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
RoryReynolds
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Tim Needham
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Kenny
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_leftLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift BarLenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Russell henry Natal Archibald Police john George james zulu smith Mounted spalding taylor drift 24th Isandlwana Franklin harford william payne martini horse gardner Woolfryes Prince Durnford

 

 Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift

Go down 
AuthorMessage
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift Empty
PostSubject: Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift   Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift EmptyTue Feb 02, 2010 9:03 pm

This is food for thought !!

An item has been for sale online, said to be an etching made in 1910 of Lenin and Hitler playing chess together in a room in Vienna in the house of a mutual friend. Perhaps, the bit that worries me is the etching. This is skilled, expensive, and takes time and trouble. Anyone recording this event would have been more likely to make a quick sketch of one sort or another. Also, there must have been many more interesting people in Vienna playing chess or talking together at the time. Hitler was an unsuccessful artist, turned 20, and going nowhere. Lenin was just another middle aged political thinker and activist on the run from Tsarist Russia, ageing and seemingly with no real future.

The other tale about the travels of Adolf that had attention in the past is the one about his supposed visit to Liverpool between November 1912 and April 1913. Based on a suspect memoir by his sister-in-law, Bridget (born Dowling), whose husband Alois Hitler; step brother of The Fuhrer, was working as a waiter in Liverpool at the time, it became the plot of an imaginative and readable novel by Beryl Bainbridge that was turned into an interesting TV item. As ever the myth overtook the truth. Detailed research in Vienna suggests that such a visit was never made, and that Bridget was making up an Irish whimsy later in life to help sell the copies of her life story. It is a great pity, in 1913 both my parents and their hordes of families were roaming the streets in which Alois and Bridget Hitler lived and worked. I could have come up with all sorts of wild fantasies.

A much better prospect for men who might have met and talked is a pairing that many would feel very unlikely. It is Lenin and Hook, one of the 13 men who won the Victoria Cross at Rorke’s Drift in 1879 when just over 100 men held off and defeated a Zulu Impi with a force of up to 4,500. They were certainly in the same place at the same time and for a year, and with interests in common.

In April 1902 Lenin, born Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, was in London under the name of Jacob Richter, to avoid the attentions of the Paris agents of the Okhrana, the Tsarist Secret Police of Imperial Russia, and he stayed until May 1903. At the British Museum he was issued with ticket number A72453 to give him access to the Library with its vast resources of books, and he spent a great deal of time there researching and writing. One minor speculation is where he preferred to sit, perhaps seats G7, H9, R7, R8, but the favourite is L13 because of its nearness to the reference shelves. Of the many attendants around, one would have stood out.

Alfred Henry Hook, who had dropped the Alfred early in life, known as Harry, was by then around 50, and perhaps already affected by the TB that was to end his life in 1905. He had been employed there since the 1880’s. After earning his VC in 1879, and with permanent injuries he had bought out, and in 1881 was working as a groom to a General Practitioner in Monmouth named George Willis. Not long after he was employed at the British Museum as an attendant, and signed up additionally with the Royal Fusiliers, The London Regiment, 1st Volunteer Battalion as an instructor, rising to be Sergeant. The Volunteers were the predecessors of the Territorial Army, and often functioned as feeder units to the regular Army.

There are reasons for Lenin to check Hook out. One was that as a figure of authority he was more likely than most to be asked his opinion about this “Mr. Richter” if the Special Branch had been alerted by the Okhrana and were seeking information. The logic would have been to test the possibility. Intellectually, however, would anyone with such an enquiring mind and intelligence of Lenin, miss the opportunity to have an occasional conversation with a man of this experience? It would not have been difficult, because Hook was temperance, and as busy men both may well have used one of the cheap tea rooms in the vicinity before going on to meetings, as Lenin would, or the Drill Hall, as Hook would. Even fifty years later, it was surprising who you could just bump into when going into a Bloomsbury tearoom for a quick cuppa and a sandwich.

Imagine, a foreigner with little income, but with a trained legal mind, high academic qualifications, and a great breadth of knowledge, asking plain reasonable questions to an older man to help him towards an understanding of this or that in the news in Britain. The end of the war in South Africa, a new Prime Minister, the crowning of the new King, the British in Somaliland and West Africa, the troubles of agriculture in the Atlantic Isles and more. Hook was a countryman by birth, one of the many who joined the Army for employment and training. As for Empire, Hook had experienced the full reality of it at the end of his bayonet, and had been involved with many men since who had seen its further shores. He would have been able to make informed and incisive comments about the South African War of 1899-1902 and the business in Nigeria.

It is speculation, and no more, but what might Lenin have learned from Hook? Lenin at the time was interested in agrarian issues, colonisation, political structures, and the extent of financial interests. In military terms, it would have been organisation, discipline, tactics, the ability of a small well trained group with the motivation and leadership to withstand and overcome what was in theory a vastly superior force. In 1914 the Old Contemptibles, the small regular British army, stopped the might of the German Kaiser’s Imperial Army by its rifle skills, discipline, and bayonets.

To understand Hook you need to forget the film “Zulu” and totally clear it from your mind. It is “Hollywood History”, not as bad or idiotic as most, but certainly with many adjustments to the facts and in particular the portrayal of personalities. Hook of the film is a travesty, as are other characters, notably Dalton, but to a lesser extent Chard and Bromhead, both highly professional soldiers who at the end of the battle shared a bottle of beer found in a burned out wagon. Hook was a sober, capable man, probably with a West Country accent, literate and able to communicate well enough. He would have been a good man to talk to. I believe he always remained a country man, because he returned to his home village, Churcham in Gloucestershire, to die. There is no statue to him anywhere; he has only a simple grave in a country churchyard.

If they did meet and talk a time or two, it might have been this quality and a direct sense of purpose that may have impressed Lenin most of all. (You know what I would agree)
Back to top Go down
 
Lenin, Hitler, Liverpool, London & Rorke's Drift
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: