Awarding the VC

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Do other members of this forum feel that some of the VCs Issued during the AZW was given to the wrong recipients?
For example did Lieutenant Colonel Redver Buller deserve the VCs for doing his duty and helping a fellow officer?

Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 46

Some of the defender at Rorke's Drift said after the defense that they did not deserve the VC because they had no choice and their heroism was merely defending their lives and not above and beyond duty actions.

sas1

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

I can’t think of any that did not deserve the VC. But I can think of a few that should have been awarded the VC

S.D.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

OK Based on S.D's reply who do think should have been awarded the VC.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

R.D Defenders

Asst. Commissary Walter Alphonsus Dunne. Army Commissariat and Transport Dept.

2/24/2459 B Coy. Col.- Sergeant Frank Bourne. B Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.

25B/964 Private James Marshall. B.Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.

Lieutenant James Adendorff. 1st Battn. 3rd Regiment. (Natal Native Contingent).

12046 Driver Charles John Robson, 5th Coy. Corps of Royal Engineers.

S.D

Posts : 3379 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

This is only my opinion: I do not think that any of them should have got a VC at Rorke's Drift. If you look at the battle in great detail, they were only doing what they were paid for. They were doing what any soldier would have done at the time. I do believe that the press has made then heroes. I know the above comment will set the cat amongst the pigeons and upset a lot of people.

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:17 pm

1879Graves
This forum allows freedom of speech. :)

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

I have been in the firing line many times for saying what I thought.
You will always get the hardliners, who can’t think for themselves and scared to think outside the history books.

S.D

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

We must remember although It was their duty, sometimes a person goes above and beyond the call of duty.
It what’s in the person (Courage) that makes them stand out from other individuals.
Lets not forget at the early stages of the Battle of Rorkes Drift, certain officers who were awarded the VC, wanted to leave. It was Dalton, who was eventually awarded a VC after intensive lobbying in the press that had the insight to stay and fortify the mission station.
What the out come would have been if they had left, is anyone’s guess. One things for sure we wouldn’t be discussing The Battle Of Rorkes Drift.
In my opinion many defenders were missed out in selection for the VC. Some of whom I have name in my previous post. However I do have my own personal thoughts on who was awarded the VC and did they deserve it.

S.D

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Joesph Willimas deserved one!!!!!!!!

As did all in the Hospital that got one

They didn't think about themselves for one moment, they risked their lifes to stop the warriors getting to the sick, look at Robert Jones, he took 3 stabb wounds but kept on fighting.

Joesph died defending a door way when he could easily have escaped.

Cheers
DB14

Guest

Hi

Wolseley has said that they had posed as hero types who saw their situation had no choice and that's it, the real heroes are the Zulus in this war, but it seems that no one have yet noticed so far ...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 63 Join date : 2010-12-06

The VC's were only awarded to smooth over the debacle that was 'Isandlwana.' If the troops had evacuated Rorke's Drift before the Zulus had arrived, the place would've been ransacked, then the Zulus would've gone home.

Guest

Hi Runner 2

Bravo , I agree 800% with you, but see what Wolseley said the heroes of Rorke's Drift and Isandhlwana, it is not kind to them, and he was a general in the army of victoria, he was better able to judge that we ...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The men in the hospital deserved their VCs

Nuff Said Idea

Cheers

Guest

Hi

This is not what Wolseley thought, I can not help it and knew more than we ...

Cheers

Pascal

Guest

Hi

This is not what Wolseley thought, I can not help it and knew more than we ...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Soooooooooooooooooooo

Standing in door way and defending it with a bayonet till you where satisfied that all behind them had escaped isn't an act of bravery Suspect

oh ye i do that all the time Rolling Eyes

Chard and Bromhead where easy awards.

The 7 24th VCs where sent for consideration by Bromhead and Degacher, i fail to see why they would be bothered about the public.

Dalton was the real hero so he deserved his

Cheers
DB

P.S. Don't listen to Wolsey he was jealous for missing out all the fights.

Guest

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

What you say is true, but This Is Not What Wolseley Thought, I Can not Help It and Knew More than we ...

Et puis c'est tout ...Je n'y peux rien...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Make your own opinion, don't listen to Wolsey, he wasn't their Idea

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:08 pm

runner2 wrote:: The VC's were only awarded to smooth over the debacle that was 'Isandlwana.' If the troops had evacuated Rorke's Drift before the Zulus had arrived, the place would've been ransacked, then the Zulus would've gone home.

I actually agree with runner2 about something.
As for Wolseley, men of his class did not like to see working class privates awarded the top gong, but tbf, he did call into question Melville and Coghill's "bravery".
VCs have always been awarded to smooth over public opinion since their inception during the Crimean War, when they were issued like sweets. This, the first war with pressmen and photographers. Dreadful conditions and suffering seen for the first time by the general public. To counter this, stories of bravery, British pluck and heroism were needed.
The last example? Not my opinion, but some think that Col H Jones' VC at Goose Green 1982 was a politically prudent thing to do at the time.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The men in the hospital did acts of valor that deserved VCs!!!!

Mad

Cheers

Guest

Hi

Well my opinion is that they were brave because they had no choice ...

Finally I bet at Rorke's Drift, there are who have not seen the shadow of a Zulu ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:23 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: The men in the hospital did acts of valor that deserved VCs!!!!

Cheers

I don't disagree withthe hospital VCs at RD and I think Colour Sergeant Bourne certainly merited one.

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:25 pm

sas1 wrote:: Some of the defender at Rorke's Drift said after the defense that they did not deserve the VC because they had no choice and their heroism was merely defending their lives and not above and beyond duty actions.

sas1

Is this why Mike Kealy and Labalaba didn't get one for the defence of Mirbat?

AND - have you ever heard of any decoration recipient, fron the MBE to the VC, who ever said, "Yes, of course I deserved it" ?

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The men in the hospital had a choose!!!!!!!!!!!

Joseph Williams could have escaped, he didn't, he stood and tried to defend help less people, he was killed doing this.

The men where not awarded VCs for just staying, they did acts of valour Idea

The 7 24h VCs there awarded them by Bromhead, why would he care what the public thought????

Some where easy awards, not all of them

Cheers
DB14

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:40 pm

Who was the private at iSandlwana / escaping the camp, who voluntarily gave up his horse so that another, an offiicer I believe, could make his escape? (He wasn't ordered to). Maybe not a VC, but he should have been awarded the DCM at least.

Guest

Hi

It's the Lt i Hon.William Vereker Who Held a command in the 3 rd NNC.

Early in the battle ,he lost his horse ; when the line collaspsed ,he found another ,and was about to ride off when one of his black infantrymen claimed it.

Vereker gave up the horse ,and stayed to be killed in the camp.

This is the best story of this war, a white officer who sacrifices himself to save the life of a single black soldier, Vereker's behavior is far from that of the majority of officers Victorian ...

I hope it was a posthumous medal he deserved its weight in vc...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 3379 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi All

Lets put a twist on this topic. Put yourself in the place of the monarch. It is up to you to award as many Victoria Crosses as you feel necessary for the Zulu War.
Now about 133 years after the war, you have many of the evidence needed to make your decisions. Who do you think should have been awarded a Victoria Cross?

Use the following Award process

The Victoria Cross is awarded for

... most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice, or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy.

A recommendation for the VC is normally issued by an officer at regimental level, or equivalent, and has to be supported by three witnesses, although this has been waived on occasion. The recommendation is then passed up the military hierarchy until it reaches the Secretary of State for Defence. The recommendation is then laid before the monarch who approves the award with his or her signature

Guest

All the survivors of each defeat in front of the Zulu, to cheer them up and there they...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 3379 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Pascal

Quote :: All the survivors of each defeat in front of the Zulu, to cheer them up

:lol!: :lol!: :lol!:

Guest

You agree with me, ok and for each surviving Zulu ?
I propose its weight in iziqu and its weight in small bunches feathers of scarlet Lourie, ok ?...

Posts : 3379 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Pascal

No I do not agree with you, I found your comment amusing :lol!:

Guest

Hi 1879 sépultures

Excuse me but ,It's stronger than me, you need a good laugh can, there are some who take themselves too seriously with the Zulu War.

Must not be ridiculous, we can say what you will, but as we have not experienced these horrible battles, all that we say is a joke ...

That's why I kidding a little bit sometimes.

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:57 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:: Hi

It's the Lt i Hon.William Vereker Who Held a command in the 3 rd NNC.

Early in the battle ,he lost his horse ; when the line collaspsed ,he found another ,and was about to ride off when one of his black infantrymen claimed it.

Vereker gave up the horse ,and stayed to be killed in the camp.

This is the best story of this war, a white officer who sacrifices himself to save the life of a single black soldier, Vereker's behavior is far from that of the majority of officers Victorian ...

I hope it was a posthumous medal he deserved its weight in vc...

Cheers

Pascal

I will read up about William Vereker in the next few days Pascal, but if this is the actual true story, to answer Graves' question, he would certainly merit a VC by today's standards. Back then, sadly no. Giving up his horse to a native, he would have been considered insane.
To me; what a man!

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

There was also

Trooper Baker NC who gave his horse to LT Higginson Idea

Cheers
DB14

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:08 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: There was also

Trooper Baker NC who gave his horse to LT Higginson

Cheers
DB14

The word "gave" came from Higginson, did it?

(Thanx DB14, will getthe books out and read up!)

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Baker dismounted and gave it to Higginson, who said he would wait at the top of the hill for him.

Higginson legged it.

Baker barly escaped with his life.

This proves that Higginson didn't return to aid M and C

Cheers
DB14

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:13 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: Baker dismounted and gave it to Higginson, who said he would wait at the top of the hill for him.

Higginson legged it.

Baker barly escaped with his life.

This proves that Higginson didn't return to aid M and C

Cheers
DB14

Applause for Baker then, boos and hisses for Higginson.

Guest

Hi

I too find it amazing that Vereker, because at that time, be racist, seems to have been the norm ...

Baker did not give his horse to a black, so it's not comparable ... In addition he gives his horse to an officer, we believe rever ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:55 am

Pascal MAHE wrote:: Hi

I too find it amazing that Vereker, because at that time, be racist, seems to have been the norm ...

Baker did not give his horse to a black, so it's not comparable ... In addition he gives his horse to an officer, we believe rever ...

Cheers

Pascal

Vereker was a man centuries ahead of his time. He should be made a saint for what he did - if he really did do that - never mind the VC.

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:15 am

1879graves wrote:: Hi All

Lets put a twist on this topic. Put yourself in the place of the monarch. It is up to you to award as many Victoria Crosses as you feel necessary for the Zulu War.
Now about 133 years after the war, you have many of the evidence needed to make your decisions. Who do you think should have been awarded a Victoria Cross?

Use the following Award process

The Victoria Cross is awarded for

... most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice, or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy.

A recommendation for the VC is normally issued by an officer at regimental level, or equivalent, and has to be supported by three witnesses, although this has been waived on occasion. The recommendation is then passed up the military hierarchy until it reaches the Secretary of State for Defence. The recommendation is then laid before the monarch who approves the award with his or her signature

I will answer Graves' question with one name:

LT WILLIAM VEREKER - 3NNC

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Hi Tasker

VEREKER's body was found at the Stonny Koppie in the clump surounding Col. Durnfords body.

If i had to say someone for the VC it would be Joseph Williams

Cheers
DB14

Guest

All of us too, we should receive the VC for the time that we pass on this forum.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Pascal MAHE wrote:: All of us too, we should receive the VC for the time that we pass on this forum.

:lol!:

No

Guest

You do not agree with me?

Ben too bad

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

A VC is for our soldiers that do very brave deeds Idea

I fail to the see the link between dieing for your countrey and tapping away on a key board.

Regards

Guest

There is not, you take too seriously, at your age it promises ...

Subject: Re: Awarding the VC Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:11 pm

sas1 wrote:: Some of the defender at Rorke's Drift said after the defense that they did not deserve the VC because they had no choice and their heroism was merely defending their lives and not above and beyond duty actions.

sas1

Is this why Mike Kealy and Labalaba didn't get VCs for the defence of Mirbat?

AND - have you ever heard of any decoration recipient, from the MBE to the VC, who ever said, "Yes, of course I deserved it" ?