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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)

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John

John


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Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Empty
PostSubject: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)   Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) EmptyMon Apr 13, 2009 8:05 pm

After watching the film Zulu Dawn again, I was wondering what the relationship was between Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford. In the open sequence Frere is writing out the ultimatums to King Cetshwayo.

Chelmsford sits down and reads the ultimatums, where Frere states,

“You see from the letter that this ultimatum is our decision alone. Her Majesty's government seems to prefer a negotiated settlement Her Majesty's government confidentially hope that by the exercise of prudence and by meeting of the Zulus in a spirit of forbearance and reasonable compromise it will be possible to avert the very serious evil of a war with Cetshwayo:”

“Referring to the letter he has just completed he says “Does this do what we both know to be right Frederick?”

Chelmsford says “It does Sir Henry excellently”

Reading between the lines, what do you think Frere meant by “ Does this do what we both know to be right “

If there was not a conspiracy, why do you think the film producers, filmed it like there was.
It must have been in someone mind that something similar took place back in 1879..
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24th

24th


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Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)   Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) EmptyMon Apr 13, 2009 9:42 pm

John. I would doubt very much if the scene in the film actually took place. It hard to say What Chelmsford's involvement was at the Ultimatum stage.
But I take your point regarding the film, Zulu Dawn. Letter writing, and private conversations in a very poorly lit room with to sinister looking officials

But one thing is for sure Sir Bartle Frere knew would be impossible to accept and was unacceptable to the Zulu tribal system.


Here are the Ultimatums given to the Zulu's on the banks of the Tugela on 11th December 1878.

1. Mhlokazulu and Bekuzulu (sons of Sirayo) who had violated Natal territory be surrendered for trial and a fine of 500 head of cattle be paid.
2. Ane of 100 head be paid for the outrage on the surveyor(Smith) and 500 for contempt of the demand that criminals be given up.
3. Umbuleni and his associates should be surrendered.
4. The Zulu army be disbanded and only mobilized with the permission of the great council and the British government.
5. Every Zulu on arriving at manhood be free to marry.
6. The administration be reformed and accused persons be given a fair trial.
7. British Resident be received at the Zulu Royal Kraal.
8. Missionaries and native converts be allowed to return to the mission stations.
9. If a missionary or other Europeans be involved in a dispute, they should not be expelled from Zululand without the consent of the proposed British resident.

King Cetshwayo had no alternative but to assemble his army.

The British High Commissioner , Sir Bartle Frere, had launched an invasion of Zululand.
Without the knowledge of the British Government. On 11th January1879, the British troops invaded Zululand.

One thing I would mention. King Cethswayo never wanted a war against Britain.
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Saul David 1879




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Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)   Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) EmptyTue Apr 14, 2009 2:04 pm

Hicks Beach had earlier admitted his helplessness with regard to the Frere's actions in a telling note to his Prime Minister:

"I have impressed this [non aggressive] view upon Sir B. Frere, both officially and privately, to the best of my power. But I cannot really control him without a telegraph (I don’t know that I could with one) I feel it is as likely as not that he is at war with the Zulus at the present moment."

It is believed that Frere wanted to provoke a conflict with the Zulus and in that goal he succeeded.

1) Surrender of Sihayo’s three sons and brother to be tried by the Natal courts.
2) Payment of a fine of five hundred head of cattle for the outrages committed by the above, and for Cetshwayo’s delay in complying with the request of the Natal Government for the surrender of the offenders.
3) Payment of a hundred head of cattle for the offence committed against Messrs. Smith and Deighton.
4) Surrender of the Swazi chief Umbilini, and others to be named hereafter, to be tried by the Transvaal courts.
5) Observance of the coronation promises.
6) That the Zulu army be disbanded, and the men allowed to go home.
7) That the Zulu military system be discontinued, and other military regulations adopted, to be decided upon after consultation with the Great Council and British Representatives.
8) That every man, when he comes to man’s estate, shall be free to marry.
9 ) All missionaries and their converts, who until 1877 lived in Zululand, shall be allowed to return and reoccupy their stations.
10) All such missionaries shall be allowed to teach, and any Zulu, if he chooses, shall be free to listen to their teaching.
11) A British Agent shall be allowed to reside in Zululand, who will see that the above provisions are carried out,
12) All disputes in which a missionary or European is concerned, shall be heard by the king in public, and in presence of the Resident.
13) No sentence of expulsion from Zululand shall be carried out until it has been approved by the Resident.[/list]

S.D
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ADMIN

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Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)   Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) EmptyTue Apr 14, 2009 8:27 pm

This from the New York Times May 30, 1884, Wednesday

THE DEATH LIST OF A DAY; SIR BARTLE FRERE, THE FAMOUS COLONIAL GOVERNOR. A MAN TO WHOM ENGLAND OWED MUCH FOR HIS PROTECTION OF HER INTERESTS IN THE EAST. DR. SAMUEL FISKE GREEN. THOMAS PADDOCK HUNTINGTON. OBITUARY NOTES.

Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere, Baronet, died in London yesterday, in the seventieth year of his age. No man in the United Kingdom had been more prominent in English political and colonial affairs than he up to the close of the Zulu ..

The Zulu war was the down fall of Sir Bartle Frere. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



Regards
Pete
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24th

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Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)   Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) EmptyTue Apr 14, 2009 9:44 pm

Came across this link. Some very good images of Documents signed by Frere

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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