» Rare books to sell/swap
Today at 3:59 pm by Julian Whybra
» Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.
Today at 1:01 pm by Mr M. Cooper
» Zulu Dawn - my part in making a great movie
Today at 10:57 am by Julian Whybra
» John Fielding Day
Today at 2:52 am by Eddie
» Pope-Degacher personailty clash
Yesterday at 6:51 pm by Julian Whybra
» Smith, John. Private. 25B/1005, B Company RD Defender.
Sun May 28, 2023 10:48 pm by Tim Needham
» Rorke's Drift VC's
Fri May 26, 2023 5:39 pm by Frank Allewell
» Clash of Empires Exhibition - Registration
Fri May 26, 2023 5:14 pm by Bill8183
» A Corporal, 1st Battalion, South Wales Borderers, circa 1882
Wed May 24, 2023 9:40 pm by Mr M. Cooper
» Zulu campfires
Mon May 22, 2023 10:48 pm by Eddie
» Zulu Muskets
Mon May 22, 2023 10:22 pm by Eddie
» Burst pipes cause damage to the Royal Welsh Museum, Brecon.
Sun May 21, 2023 7:42 pm by John Young
» Hired Transports of The Anglo - Zulu War 1879
Sun May 21, 2023 3:22 pm by Mr M. Cooper
» VC's Rorkes Drift 1879
Sun May 21, 2023 3:21 pm by jgregory
» Was it a dog at Rordke's Drift?
Sun May 21, 2023 3:16 pm by jgregory
» Rorkes Drift VC sold
Sat May 20, 2023 10:33 am by jgregory
» Not lost all ...!!!
Sat May 20, 2023 2:00 am by Eddie
» Brevet Major. Henry Spalding of Rorke's Drift and Information for Columns
Thu May 18, 2023 10:58 am by Richard Spalding
» Grahamstown Cdv ebay soldier cape corps
Thu May 18, 2023 10:57 am by ciroferrara
» Colonel Frederick Cardew
Thu May 18, 2023 9:58 am by John Young
» Surruier Captain RE?
Mon May 15, 2023 12:25 pm by John Young
» A Major, 2nd Battalion, Connaught Rangers circa 1890.
Sun May 14, 2023 4:30 pm by John Young
» Why no Zulu Ambush/Attack on moving Columns?
Sun May 14, 2023 9:28 am by Julian Whybra
» Drum-Major A.T. Rixon, 58th
Fri May 12, 2023 9:43 am by Catiline63
» 1309 PTE H. HERBERT, 2-24TH FOOT
Fri May 12, 2023 8:48 am by rai
» Captain Arthur Harrington Kyle
Fri May 12, 2023 8:31 am by rai
» 324 Pte O Hughes 1/24th, killed at Isandlwana
Thu May 11, 2023 8:28 am by ADMIN
» Trooper Borain Natal Carbineers - Isandlwana Casualty
Wed May 10, 2023 5:29 pm by Julian Whybra
» Zulu Victory or British Defeat?: Analysing the Battle of Isandlwana, 1879
Mon May 08, 2023 8:47 am by Julian Whybra
» New Shaka Series
Sun May 07, 2023 12:25 pm by Jon84
» Morosi's Mountain
Sun May 07, 2023 4:04 am by aussie inkosi
» Mr Alfred Dobson (Frontier Light Horse)
Sun May 07, 2023 3:53 am by aussie inkosi
» Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?
Fri May 05, 2023 9:52 am by jgregory
» University Essay
Wed May 03, 2023 5:55 pm by bayonet charge
» John Warman AHC 2336
Wed May 03, 2023 2:42 pm by Eddie
|Top posting users this month|
|Fair Use Notice|
|Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)
Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 60
Location : UK
|Subject: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:05 pm|| |
After watching the film Zulu Dawn again, I was wondering what the relationship was between Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford. In the open sequence Frere is writing out the ultimatums to King Cetshwayo.
Chelmsford sits down and reads the ultimatums, where Frere states,
“You see from the letter that this ultimatum is our decision alone. Her Majesty's government seems to prefer a negotiated settlement Her Majesty's government confidentially hope that by the exercise of prudence and by meeting of the Zulus in a spirit of forbearance and reasonable compromise it will be possible to avert the very serious evil of a war with Cetshwayo:”
“Referring to the letter he has just completed he says “Does this do what we both know to be right Frederick?”
Chelmsford says “It does Sir Henry excellently”
Reading between the lines, what do you think Frere meant by “ Does this do what we both know to be right “
If there was not a conspiracy, why do you think the film producers, filmed it like there was.
It must have been in someone mind that something similar took place back in 1879..
Posts : 1862
Join date : 2009-03-25
|Subject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:42 pm|| |
John. I would doubt very much if the scene in the film actually took place. It hard to say What Chelmsford's involvement was at the Ultimatum stage.
But I take your point regarding the film, Zulu Dawn. Letter writing, and private conversations in a very poorly lit room with to sinister looking officials
But one thing is for sure Sir Bartle Frere knew would be impossible to accept and was unacceptable to the Zulu tribal system.
Here are the Ultimatums given to the Zulu's on the banks of the Tugela on 11th December 1878.
1. Mhlokazulu and Bekuzulu (sons of Sirayo) who had violated Natal territory be surrendered for trial and a fine of 500 head of cattle be paid.
2. Ane of 100 head be paid for the outrage on the surveyor(Smith) and 500 for contempt of the demand that criminals be given up.
3. Umbuleni and his associates should be surrendered.
4. The Zulu army be disbanded and only mobilized with the permission of the great council and the British government.
5. Every Zulu on arriving at manhood be free to marry.
6. The administration be reformed and accused persons be given a fair trial.
7. British Resident be received at the Zulu Royal Kraal.
8. Missionaries and native converts be allowed to return to the mission stations.
9. If a missionary or other Europeans be involved in a dispute, they should not be expelled from Zululand without the consent of the proposed British resident.
King Cetshwayo had no alternative but to assemble his army.
The British High Commissioner , Sir Bartle Frere, had launched an invasion of Zululand.
Without the knowledge of the British Government. On 11th January1879, the British troops invaded Zululand.
One thing I would mention. King Cethswayo never wanted a war against Britain.
|Saul David 1879|
Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28
|Subject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:04 pm|| |
Hicks Beach had earlier admitted his helplessness with regard to the Frere's actions in a telling note to his Prime Minister:
"I have impressed this [non aggressive] view upon Sir B. Frere, both officially and privately, to the best of my power. But I cannot really control him without a telegraph (I don’t know that I could with one) I feel it is as likely as not that he is at war with the Zulus at the present moment."
It is believed that Frere wanted to provoke a conflict with the Zulus and in that goal he succeeded.
1) Surrender of Sihayo’s three sons and brother to be tried by the Natal courts.
2) Payment of a fine of five hundred head of cattle for the outrages committed by the above, and for Cetshwayo’s delay in complying with the request of the Natal Government for the surrender of the offenders.
3) Payment of a hundred head of cattle for the offence committed against Messrs. Smith and Deighton.
4) Surrender of the Swazi chief Umbilini, and others to be named hereafter, to be tried by the Transvaal courts.
5) Observance of the coronation promises.
6) That the Zulu army be disbanded, and the men allowed to go home.
7) That the Zulu military system be discontinued, and other military regulations adopted, to be decided upon after consultation with the Great Council and British Representatives.
8) That every man, when he comes to man’s estate, shall be free to marry.
9 ) All missionaries and their converts, who until 1877 lived in Zululand, shall be allowed to return and reoccupy their stations.
10) All such missionaries shall be allowed to teach, and any Zulu, if he chooses, shall be free to listen to their teaching.
11) A British Agent shall be allowed to reside in Zululand, who will see that the above provisions are carried out,
12) All disputes in which a missionary or European is concerned, shall be heard by the king in public, and in presence of the Resident.
13) No sentence of expulsion from Zululand shall be carried out until it has been approved by the Resident.[/list]
Posts : 4321
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 64
Location : KENT
|Subject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:27 pm|| |
This from the New York Times May 30, 1884, Wednesday
THE DEATH LIST OF A DAY; SIR BARTLE FRERE, THE FAMOUS COLONIAL GOVERNOR. A MAN TO WHOM ENGLAND OWED MUCH FOR HIS PROTECTION OF HER INTERESTS IN THE EAST. DR. SAMUEL FISKE GREEN. THOMAS PADDOCK HUNTINGTON. OBITUARY NOTES.
Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere, Baronet, died in London yesterday, in the seventieth year of his age. No man in the United Kingdom had been more prominent in English political and colonial affairs than he up to the close of the Zulu ..
The Zulu war was the down fall of Sir Bartle Frere. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Posts : 1862
Join date : 2009-03-25
|Subject: Re: Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn) Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:44 pm|| |
Came across this link. Some very good images of Documents signed by Frere[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Sir Bartle Frere and Lord Chelmsford (Zulu Dawn)
|Permissions in this forum:||You cannot reply to topics in this forum|