WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film Quote Lieutenant Bromhead :If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies
missing 2 companies EmptyYesterday at 10:17 pm by Tim Needham

» Bechuanaland police
missing 2 companies EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:18 pm by ciroferrara

» 17th Lancers
missing 2 companies EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:07 pm by gardner1879

» Commissary E. W. H. Webb, C.B.
missing 2 companies EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 4:02 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captain Robert Francis Vetch
missing 2 companies EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 1:03 pm by Frank Allewell

» The difference between a Drummer and a Boy in the Band.
missing 2 companies EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 4:07 am by magolding

» Zulu Boys Recollection of the Zulu War
missing 2 companies EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 3:40 am by magolding

» Remembering the Rebellion - The Zulu Uprising of 1906 Jeff Guy
missing 2 companies EmptyMon Jun 20, 2022 10:09 pm by Ian Chard

» Sergeant Arthur Horatio Still, 12th Lancers
missing 2 companies EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 7:29 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Lawler 1/24th
missing 2 companies EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:42 pm by gardner1879

» Quartermaster Michael James Kenny Connaught Rangers
missing 2 companies EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:39 pm by gardner1879

» Captain Ulick De Burgh
missing 2 companies EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 8:55 am by gardner1879

» I am a happy boy!
missing 2 companies EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 5:17 am by nitro450

» Patrick Murray, 313, 88th of Foot
missing 2 companies EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 5:22 pm by gardner1879

» Zulu Dawn on DVD - better than Blu-Ray?
missing 2 companies EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 3:29 pm by TimmyH

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
missing 2 companies EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 2:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Howard Molyneux Edward Brunker
missing 2 companies EmptyThu Jun 16, 2022 11:05 am by gardner1879

» Location of Special Service Officers 1878/9
missing 2 companies EmptyWed Jun 15, 2022 12:34 pm by gardner1879

» Cdvs and cabinet card photos wanted
missing 2 companies EmptyTue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm by ciroferrara

» Other ranks patrol jacket
missing 2 companies EmptyMon Jun 13, 2022 12:23 pm by John Young

» A Staffordshire Regiment in the Zulu and Zekukuni Campaigns
missing 2 companies EmptySun Jun 12, 2022 5:12 pm by gardner1879

» Good website or seller for zulu war era Carte De Visites
missing 2 companies EmptySat Jun 11, 2022 2:27 pm by ciroferrara

» In search of more service papers
missing 2 companies EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 11:10 pm by charltontom7@gmail.com

» Isandlwana solving the enigma
missing 2 companies EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 1:41 pm by Julian Whybra

» Brave mens blood. Frontier Light Horse picture
missing 2 companies EmptyThu Jun 09, 2022 8:54 pm by ciroferrara

» Picture Quiz
missing 2 companies EmptySat Jun 04, 2022 2:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Platinum Jubilee
missing 2 companies EmptyFri Jun 03, 2022 10:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Trooper G Hennessey (301) Frontier Light Horse
missing 2 companies EmptyThu Jun 02, 2022 2:43 pm by 90th

» Captain Robert Julian Orde Jocelyn 8th Reg
missing 2 companies EmptyMon May 30, 2022 6:48 am by gardner1879

» Best book on colonial soldiers during zulu war
missing 2 companies EmptySun May 29, 2022 12:14 am by ciroferrara

» Sergeant E Wilson
missing 2 companies EmptyWed May 25, 2022 9:30 am by gardner1879

» 1940 Review of 'Lord Chelmsford and the Zulu War'
missing 2 companies EmptyTue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm by gardner1879

» H.M.S. Forester
missing 2 companies EmptyTue May 24, 2022 2:55 am by 90th

» Royal Small Arms Repair Factory - Pimlico / Mill Bank , London
missing 2 companies EmptyWed May 18, 2022 2:04 pm by MPS1

» Deafness linked to the effects of battle
missing 2 companies EmptyMon May 16, 2022 1:56 pm by Younghusband

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
Top posters
90th
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
littlehand
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
ADMIN
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
1879graves
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
rusteze
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
John
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
gardner1879
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
John Young
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
ciroferrara
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Vaughan
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Ian Chard
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
90th
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Bill8183
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Tim Needham
missing 2 companies Bar_leftmissing 2 companies Barmissing 2 companies Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
smith Prince 24th martini Mounted henry brown carbineers Woolfryes Franklin Durnford taylor Police drift zulu George horse payne Russell Natal james Isandlwana william john harford spalding
 

 missing 2 companies

Go down 
3 posters
AuthorMessage
90th

90th


Posts : 10482
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

missing 2 companies Empty
PostSubject: missing 2 companies   missing 2 companies EmptyThu Nov 25, 2010 11:33 pm

Hi all .
My collegue has sent me some further info which I'm sure we are all thankful.

"There seems to be some confusion creeping in about the actual evidence in this thread, and in particular which artifacts were found where. The story concerning items of British equipment found under a cairn is a different story to the Rev. Johnson's observations, and they were found on a different part of the battlefield, not on the site of St. Vincent's. We don't know by what criteria the Rev. Johnson at first thought the bodies found on the St. Vincent's site were British - if indeed he ever did, since the report of remains being moved does not quote him in specific detail. There is no reference to artifacts being found at this point either way - in fact the tenor of the anecdote strongly suggests that Johnson already knew the story of the 'missing companies' before he arrived on the spot, and jumped to the conclusion these remains were of those men. Yet in fact, after some months on site and having made specific inquiries, he no longer held that opinion and felt confident enough to be able to assure Lt. O'Connell that the story was not true. In the meatime, between arriving and talking to O'Connell, he had presumably removed and buried the remains, and it's reasonable to suppose that if he had found any British artifacts among the dead he would not have held so strongly to the view that the 'missing companies' story was untrue. In fact, as Ken has sad, the remains were probably of Zulu dead since the Zulu 'chest' suffered heavy losses as it descended from the ridge into the hollows at the foot - exactly where St. Vincent's now stands. In addition to that, a great many Zulu dead were removed by the retiring army after the battle and left in the dongas near St. Vincent's - it is their remains which, over the years, have been buried in the 'Tomb of the Unknown Warrior'. The story of artifacts being found in the outlying areas relates to a different incident, and apparently concerns alleged cairns which may have once existed on the ridge where Mostyn and Cavaye were posted. In 1958 - at a time when there was no curatorial presence on the battlefield, and those charged with its care made periodic visits to check on the condition of the graves - a curator, apparently acting with good intentions but 'in ignorance' flattened a number of outlying cairns so that they looked like ordinary graves. They were soon overgrown and the significance of some of them was lost. In the 1960s a Mr George Chadwick was ased on behalf of the Monuments Counil to repair and restore these cairns, and he examined, recorded and rebuilt a number, including some from his own memory. Now here is what he says about a cairn or cairns on the ridge, and his words need to be read carefully - 'these cairns include those out on the ridge where the British companies were stationed and along the route of the fugitives. In view of recent statements that very few British were killed at the advanced positions, it is interesting to note that buttons, boot protectors and bones were found when the neglected cairns were dismantled and documented. This is, of course, not evidence that the casualties at these positions were very heavy.' It should be noted that Mr Chadwick's papers do not appear to have survived, at least in the public domain, and nor does there appear to be any surviving cairn now on the ridge, so it is difficult to be specific about his findings. However, it certainly seems that there may have been some casualties on the ridge - but as Mr Chadwick himself was keen to stress, not many. There is a tendency now to read this evidence as an 'all or nothing' scenario, and Mostyn and Cavaye are either said to have retired with no casualties or to have suffered heavy casualties (in this situation they are the 'missing companies'), with nothing in between. In fact it is highly likely that these companies suffered a small number of casualties, perhaps no more than one or two men, from Zulu rifle-fire while they were on the ridge, and that these were the remains covered by Mr Chadwick's cairns. Such a small number and under such circumstances would not have made much inpression on survivors on either side, although Essex does suggest obliquely that the companies had been under 'erratic' fire while still on the ridge - but only suffered more significant casualties once they had drawn up again at the foot. Although the Zulu amabutho were jealous of the honour of being the first to 'stab' the enemy - to close in hand-to-hand - it is unlikely that one or two casualties caused at long range would have made much impression on them, especially in the light of the mayhem that followed soon afterwards, and this would account for any lack of traditions on their part regarding killings on the ridge. Certainly if they had managed to close in and had overwhelmed even small detachments in the outlying areas one would expect some memory of this to survive (as it did, for example, regarding the destruction of the rocket battery). So in my view the presence of one or two dead soldiers on the ridge need not give rise to speculation that they were Zulus in captured equipment, nor support the whole 'missing companies' legend - it is entirely consistent with the course of the battle outlined in other sources."Cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

missing 2 companies Empty
PostSubject: Re: missing 2 companies   missing 2 companies EmptyFri Nov 26, 2010 6:53 am

90th
Ist innings Aussies not going so well.
However to avoid problems with admin..............back to the war.
Big thankyou to your friend for his comments ( why doesnt he join the site and reply in first person, Im sure we could all benefit).
Couple of minor issues arrising from his responce. The report mentioning the findings of the skeletons was written by Canon Johnson himself. He was then in the company of Hlubi, the Archbishop Usherwood, Rev George Smith The resident Mr Wheelwright and Mr Fynn.
Non of them in subsequent years had cause to dispute Johnsons Report.
The fact that skeletons were found in great quantities is a given fact.
The nationality of those skeletons is the question. As pointed out by your friend the area of the current village and the church was a killing ground for the chest of the zulus so highly likely the skeletons were of zulu origin.
So what caused Johnson to think, and write, otherwise.
Local knowledge.
As he says," from what I can gather from the Zulus...."
So 9 months after the event occupants of the kraal he is camping at tell their version. Were they just telling him stories about the brave British? Possibly.
What intrigues me is the detail within that story, its either been embelished for the purpose of impressing Johnson or hes got it completely wrong.
Either way I do believe that it adds another layer to the enigma of the battle.

Second point is the ridge and the cairns.
I concur that they are in different parts of the battlefield, some 400 yards apart. But in the scale of this area thats an insignificant distance. If Mike Snook can have a company fighting from the front line to the banks of the Manzimyama or to the neck then 400 yards means nothing.
My point in bringing Mostyn Cavaye et al into the equation was to open an avenue of discussion that they could possibly have been in that area. Apart from their action on the ridge they were also facing the uKhandempemvu. Semi proof of Mostyn was found on the battlefield, anecdotal evidence also of Cavaye being further back but what of Porteous? The guns retire, under extreme pressure, Porteous was their support, adjacent to them and also slap bang in front of the uKkandempemvu. I dont recall to much evidence supporting their movements.
So its feasaable there were British troops in that area.
Historians have for a long time maintained there were no casualties on the ridge or the retreat. Chadwicks point on what he collected proves differently. Its highly probable that when the troops retired the zulus charged over the ridge and were met with some pretty hot volley fire. Ergo there would have been certainly a fair number of casualties, that would account for bones being found, and therefore potential cairns.
There was also a cairn around half way down the spur, also no longer visible.
In the early 70s George pointed out two areas to me, the spur and on the ridge. Ive walked both those areas since and found nothing. They were however there.

So like many other aspects of the battle a riddle locked in an enigma etc etc etc.

Looks like rain has stopped play

Regards
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10482
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

missing 2 companies Empty
PostSubject: missing 2 companies   missing 2 companies EmptyFri Nov 26, 2010 7:10 am

Hi springbok.
I think I need to get to Isandlwana and look at the area for myself ! . At the risk of upsetting Admin , we were struggling
early until the M. Hussey of 3 -4 yrs ago arrived at the crease . He has batted magnificently today . I hope he gets a ton
as he deserves one .
cheers 90th. Idea
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

missing 2 companies Empty
PostSubject: Re: missing 2 companies   missing 2 companies EmptyFri Nov 26, 2010 7:16 am

Rather get to the Gaba. Shapping up to be a classic contest.

Regards
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

missing 2 companies Empty
PostSubject: Re: missing 2 companies   missing 2 companies EmptyFri Nov 26, 2010 11:28 pm

These discussions a great, but would be better if maps could be included, its hard to visualise what events took place in what areas. (Just a thought)
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10482
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

missing 2 companies Empty
PostSubject: missing 2 companies   missing 2 companies EmptySat Nov 27, 2010 1:12 am

hi springbok .

I know its off topic, sorry pete , but congrats to Hussey 102 no and Haddin 52 no . A lead of 20 for the Aussies :lol!:
cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

missing 2 companies Empty
PostSubject: Re: missing 2 companies   missing 2 companies EmptySat Nov 27, 2010 7:50 am

Hi Chard
I will try to download a google earth shot and mark it up for you.

90th
Great partnership, could have turned the course of the battle. Idea

Regards
Back to top Go down
 
missing 2 companies
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» The Missing Two Companies.
» The Myth of the Missing Companies. By Ian Knight.
» The five companies ...
» Deployment of E & F companies.
» The companies on the ridge

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: