Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford

Deleted, unnecessary reply.

Impi, best to ignore those type of comments.

impi wrote:

Do we know where Pulleine, Gardener and Brickhill was, when Shepstone came in to ask for assistance. They're could not have been near the command tent, because Brickhill say Pulleine and Gardener went away together, after which Brickhill went to the camp to look for a weapon, on arriving say's the whole Battle array was in poistion. I can't quite see how Pulleine had time to give direction to the Compaines to take-up position.

Brickhill might have been remembering the soldiers standing in front of the camp when he arrived because they mustered on the parade ground twice. When Durnford arrived they were in front of the camp from the first time Pulleine called them out. Then Durnford suggested they be stood down to eat. Then Shepstone came in and they were paraded a second time.

Doesn't it make sense that somebody coming in from a reconnaissance with a report of masses of Zulu troops might have provoked somebody to blow the column alert? Pulleine and Gardner, according to one witness then repaired inside the tent to work on the message to be sent to Chelmsford. I have no idea how you view the significance of Brickhill looking for a gun, but it was probably because he saw a whole lot of Zulu headed his way.

6pdr wrote:

I have no idea how you view the significance of Brickhill looking for a gun,

I would assume,as he wanted to join in the battle, he would need a weapon! He didn't have one so went to the camp to find one.!!

Impi, Pulleine was in the camp of the 1st/24th inside his tent, when Stepstone arrived. Gardener arrived around the same time. With reference to looking for a weapon, I think h is referring to the same camp. Unable to find one he moved himself to a better postion infront of the column office.

Chard1879 wrote:

I would assume,as he wanted to join in the battle, he would need a weapon! He didn't have one so went to the camp to find one.!!

So do I take this to mean Chard that you do not regard HQ as part of the camp? I'm confused. Where exactly was Brickhill when he was looking for a rifle?

impi/chard
Id pretty much agree there. Pulleine and Brickhill both had their quarters with the 1/24th. Brickhill sharing with QM Pullen. Its debatable if Pulleine would have transferred across to the HQ tent or not. Personal view point is that most of the early morning activity would have taken place around the 1/24th camp. Later moving the seat of action across to the HQ area for a more commanding view point.
Nothing really to base that on just a gut feel.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

impi/chard
Id pretty much agree there. Pulleine and Brickhill both had their quarters with the 1/24th. Brickhill sharing with QM Pullen. Its debatable if Pulleine would have transferred across to the HQ tent or not. Personal view point is that most of the early morning activity would have taken place around the 1/24th camp. Later moving the seat of action across to the HQ area for a more commanding view point.
Nothing really to base that on just a gut feel.

Would their location at Pulleine's tent or the HQ tent impact whether the troops were standing in front of the camp at the time Gardner and Shepstone approached the Colonel?

It's the time spand I'm interested in, some of the companies were a quater of a mile from the the camp in formation. Were they send from the camp prior to Shepstone and Gardener arriving or did Pulleine order the movement after he left Brickhill.

That quarter of a mile is misleading. The parade area was in front of the 2/24th probably 500 yrds from the 1/24th HQ and maybe 300 from the 2/24th and 400 or so from the HQ. But not in the middle of nowhere, right in front of the battalion guard tents.
Its debatable when or even if Pulleine moved his HQ across to the Regimental HQ. I would believe he did but late morning, He and Durnford had breakfast together with his officers, that was around 11 oclock and I would guess that would have been at his own mess facility, just underneath the Koppie.

All guess work though.

Cheers

I'm actually learning something.. Good discussion. I can see Frank , becoming a well known name, when it come to the Battle Of Isandlwana.

Sorry missed the last part of your question. The Companies were put on stand to during breakfast service, around 8 oclock. That's about the time Durnford was leaving RD, and 2 1/2 to 3 hours before Shepstone and Gardner arrived. When Durnford arrived he requested they be stood down. They were and called back to parade later.

Cheers

Enthusiastic amateur SAS. No more than that. The experts are people like Ken Gillings and Ian Knight.

Cheers

SAS 1
I see the beauty of this forum as being able to share information, if I can do that then so be it. These discusions are brilliant because seemingly small questions do require a bit of research and that forces us into a bit of reading and searching.
Personal opinions are everything with this bloody battle, with such little information they are important and to be able to share those is an honour, to be able to debate them even more so.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Enthusiastic amateur SAS. No more than that. The experts are people like Ken Gillings and Ian Knight.

That said, you are doing a lot of well grounded original thinking that makes everybody revisit their assumptions. If you wrote one of those things old fogey's read -- a book -- I think you could make a real name for yourself young man.

" Young "   

Admin wrote:

" Young "   

Well...it's all relative. Compared to Drummerboy16/17...maybe not so much.

Is it possible that the Company commanders took themselfs off to the various locations on the Battlefield. Do we actually have a rough idea of the time, they were all in place on the field?

impi when you say company
commanders, who do you mean?.

Not Pulleine or Durnford, Younghusband, Pope, ect.

springbok9 wrote:

I had two indications
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Looking at the Map posted by Springbok, it's show's the camp of the 1st/24th. Pulleine is indicated on map. We know he left there at some stage after his conversation with Gardener' Shepstone, and Brickhill.
He obvisouly went to the from of the camp HQ, The map indicate the line of the British troops, further out is another line which shows " The British Last Positions"
Who ordered the men to that last position?

impi the battle developed organically!.

Doesn't really answer the question? As to who placed the men at the last positions

impi wrote:

Doesn't really answer the question?  As to who placed the men at the last positions

Hey, I have an idea impi.  Why don't you articulate your theory of the battle so we understand where these questions are coming from?  That way we can be of better service to you?

Sorry impi, i was'nt being facetious.
would it help if i said the Zulu did.

xhosa2000 wrote:

Sorry impi, i was'nt being facetious.

I wasn't either. I'm simply trying to understand what the map covneys to him? The possibilities are...Durnford, Pulleine, the company officers or (indirectly) the Zulu. Possibly impi has another idea? I don't know. I am trying to understand?

Isn't the question simple enough. What officer placed the men at the line deplicting the Last British position. Away from the camp. Or did the companies move to that postion on their own?

sorry impi,ulundi, still dont get what you mean, are
you talking about Pulleine, Durnford, Melvill ( before
he got off of course ) or do you believe they fell
into line naturally as the Zulu threat increased?.

Ulundi wrote:

Isn't the question simple enough.

Well, now that xhosa has provided that footage it is. Obviously it was Denholm Elliot...

6pdr your a bad man;). the footage simply
demonstrates that things can go wrong,
right back to impi's question..

xhosa2000 wrote:

sorry impi,ulundi, still dont get what you mean, are
you talking about Pulleine, Durnford, Melvill ( before
he got off of course ) or do you believe they fell
into line naturally as the Zulu threat increased?.

I expect Springbok, will be able to give a satisfactory reply!

xhosa2000 wrote:

...the footage simply
demonstrates that things can go wrong,
right back to impi's question..

So, you STILL won't answer the question? Whose the bad man now?

Here's your chance to make up for it. I have an inquiry (which you probably won't* answer) about the map. There are dotted lines (with arrows) emerging from each tent block and they meet/converge on the old trader's road northwest of the camp.

What is that telling us? At first I thought it might be where they mustered but that's obviously not the case...especially the second time. Is it just an indication they traveled that road before pitching the camp?

-6pdr

*Or maybe you can't. HA!

So, you STILL won't answer the question? Whose the bad man now?

*Or maybe you can't. HA!...

excuse me but how old are you? you think to
provoke me into doing your thinking for you by
the clumsy whatever that is above, err no!
yes 6pdr think..movement.

AH!  So you're saying that the map was indicating a future intention to proceed up the road...  Thank you!  I really had no clue because that's NOT what Chelmsford had in mind next for the column when he sent Gardner to summon it along. (So my little stratagem worked a treat.)   

As for your query...somewhere between DB16 and Springbok.  Why do you ask?

AH! So you're saying that the map was indicating a future intention to proceed up the road...

What!..they are all your words..that you are trying to put in my
mouth,your trying to project your whatever on me!whats packing
up the camp to do with the price of fish?. spell it out! what are
you going on about...the age crack in context was a fair point.
think about it!.

Thinking...thinking...thinking...    Nope. I got bupkis.

But while we are on and off the topic XHOSA, are you implying that Chelmsford was responsible for placing the companies there because he made Pulleine pull men from the line companies to pack up the camp for him?  I'm not sure. But I think we should add Chelmsford to the list of possibilities. Or are you going to stick with "the Zulus done it," scape-goater that you are...  

- 6pdr

P.S. And when will you keep your promise to stop beating your wife?  

Gardner re Pulleine, LC was out of the loop..
im dropping off,we can take this up again
tmz.

Impi.
That's really been the discussion between Julian and myself.
I think the line was created by necessity, it evolved in response to the threat and direction of the attack. Julians thoughts are that yes it did evolve but in a directed way by Pulleine, in accordance with the instructions to the Column Commanders.
We are happy to disagree on that point but the subsequent movements, these are the ones I think you refer to, were directed from an overall command tactic. That would have been dictated by Pulleine. So in short Pulleine placed the troops............until the line broke, after that it was down to who ever was directing those survival pods of men. Could have been a senior officer or even an NCO.
Ive been playing for a while. I emphasize playing with who could have commanded those retreating groups. Boils down really to those officers bodies that were found, Anstey, Durnford, Younghusband Pope etc.

Hope that helps.

Im surprised that those two eradite opponents from the States and Manchester haven't picked up on the most interesting point of that map, and in fact the real reason I kept it.
Look carefully at the lines of retreat by the fugitives, EITHER side of the Koppie, not just the Western face as tradition tells us.

That's not just a thought of mine, I know for a fact that Neil has also voiced an opinion on that in addition to the late Davis Rattray.

Cheers

Yes, I was just reading the account by a fugitive officer -- can't remember who -- but he said he tried to go between the hills but the right horn was already there and that forced him either on to or around Black's Koppie so there are eye witnesses/survivor accounts to corroborate that.

But I beg to differ with your claim that is the most interesting detail on the map.  I would point you to the location of the N/5 battery...directly north of and in line with the tents.  I think that was the original reason you fetched it up from your commodious archive -- i.e. to show Julian.

Where to begin with that one?  I will leave it to men of stouter heart.

6pr
That was a side issue. The split around the koppis is/could be a really important issue.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

The split around the koppis is/could be a really important issue.

Thank goodness, because I was down to my last can of worms. WHY?

Ahhh therein lies the rub!
Been wanting to use that phrase for years.
Nuff said.

yes springbok i did see that, i'm not really
big on minutia so at first did not see the
import, i feel you are off on a mission. will
be very interested to see where that goes.

yeah impi. ctsg, and then you 6pdr got up
my nose a tad last night, but its a rather
beautiful day here in manchester, will watch
my team later..so you can have this snippet,
which again so many of us are familiar with!

It was evidently time to recall the men fighting
on the spur and lieutenant Melvill rode out to
them with the order. "C" company 1st 24th
under Captain Reginald Younghushand was sent
to cover their retreat, while the remaining regulars
who had been drawn up in column of companies,
moved off towards the knoll. here "H" company
1st 24th under Captain Wardell joined "A" company
and the two deployed in skirmishing order on either
side of the guns..

Spingbok the discussion between yourself and Julian, ended in disagreement.

For my part, I was trying to establish, who sent the men away from the camp. They were originally line up in front of the camp,a better chance of survival if they had remained there. However looking at your map. They ended up in small Compaines way out in the open. The Zulu route behind Isandlwana was left wide open, as we know, when the troops fell back to the camp, the Zulus were already there. In-hinesight reinforcing the camp, would have been a waste of time. There was no one left in the camp to make use of the reinforcements.

Les.  

Just a quick point about the map. It is a commercial publication by James Wyld - not "official" by the War Office. So, it is either a copy of an official map (which one ?), or it may simply be conjecture by Mr Wyld so far as the detail is concerned.

Steve

and for the finest account of Isandhlwana i will ever read..

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impi
Don't take that map to literally.
The full sequence of movements can be boiled down as follows:
The Companies are stood to on the parade ground in front of the 2/24th by order of Pulleine
They are stood down by Pulleine at the request of Durnford.
One Company is sent onto the Tahelane Spur ( unclear who ordered this but either Pulleine or Durnford)
The companies are again stood to on the parade ground, Pulleines order.
Two NNH Companies sent to scout the plateau. Durnford.
One other Company is sent to the Spur. Pulleines order
Durnfords column moves out. Durnford
Two companie sent towards Rocky Ridge with the Guns.
Both companies are withdrawn. Pulleines order via Melvill
Younghusband sent forward to cover withdrawl, Pulleine
C, E and F withdrawn towards defence line, Pulleine
G Company sent to East end on line to cover Colonial, NNH and NNC withdrawl. Pulleine
Dyer posted into line and G company extended to South. Pulleine
Durnford returns to donger then retires. Durnford.
Defence line retires and splinters. Pulleine/Durnford.
Individual retreat. Company and section commanders.

As far as Im aware that is all the troop movements on and around the camp area

Cheers

k sorry impi   

springbok, where is that map from, is it
in greaves Isandhlwana? cant put my hand
on that book, might have been relegated
to the loft.. cheers mate