Charlie Pope's diary

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

It won't put the writting in the middle Suspect

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:02 pm

Drummer boy! You've left a wee bit out.

22nd January, 1879 - 4 a.m. - A,C,D,E,F,H Companies of
ours - 1 2 / 3 N.N.C. - mounted troops and four guns off.
Great Firing.
Relieved by 1-24th.
Alarm.
3 Columns Zulus and mounted men on hill E.
Turn Out.
7000 (!!!) more E.N.E., 4,000 of whom went round Lion's
Kop.
Durnford, Basutos, arrive and pursue. - Rocket Battery.
Zulus retire everywhere.
Men fall out for dinners."

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:49 pm

Julian. What wee bits has he missed out.

Subject: Charlie Pope's Diary Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:28 am

Hi Littlehand .
The figure of '' 4,000 '' is missing .
cheers 90th. Idea

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:00 pm

wow there has been a lot of activity since I last posted on this topic.
I have no doubt that the diary is in private hands, although it's history is still a bit nebulous however all the misquotes of that 22nd Jan entry i.e.: in regimental history of 24th, washing of the spears and various other books that following the words ' Great Firing' change the 'Relieved by 24th' to either ' believed to be by 24th' or believed by 24th. I believe are just errors in the printing.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Hi umbikazulu

If you get the book In Zululand with the British army by Charles Norris-Newman, he was present and read the diary after it was recovered in March 1879.

He also gives the full layout of the entrey.

Cheers

Subject: Charlie Pope's Diary Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:58 pm

Hi All .
As I've stated a few times on the forum , a damn fine read it is as well , '' In zululand with the British Army '' by Norris - Newman .
cheers 90th. Idea

Subject: Charlie Pope's diary Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:20 pm

Hi all

Echo DB14 and 90th. A very good book indeed, some very interesting stuff in there, well recommended.

Martin.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The diary was found by Assistant Commissary W. M. Laurence of the Commissariat & Transport Department

He recorded that

I found rather an interesting relic in the shape of a diary kept by Lieut. Pope, who was in command of the company of the 2-24th that was destroyed.

Cheers

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

impi wrote:: "Charlie Pope was found on the battlefield transfixed by a Zulu spear. He was still wearing his monocle. The Zulus called him ‘the man with the glass eye"

Whats the source ??

Cheers

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

In Isandlwana-Zulu Battlefield there is a transcription of what Pope said in
and also a camera shot of what appears to be his last entery.

Was it the real diary used in the program ??

Cheers

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:01 pm

DB
I'm not certain but i don't believe so.

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:44 pm

From the " Victorian Forum" by John Young. Zulu war historian and author.

"Pope's diary used to be in the Kenneth Griffith collection. Kenneth read from the diary on the field of Isandlwana during his documentary, Thick as Grass, Black as Hell.

I had the good fortune to know Kenneth from 1985 until his death his death in 2006. Kenneth's passion was the 2nd Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902. When I first met him I asked him about Pope's diary, he explained to me he had been forced to sell it along with a number of other choice Anglo-Zulu War pieces to fund his (third) divorce. The sale of the diary was conducted by a third party and Kenneth was unaware of the purchaser, to my knowledge it took place around 1982. I have met with the third party, whilst in Kenneth's company, however they would not disclose the identity of the purchaser."

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

John Young also said

I actually saw it about 18 years ago when it was in a private
collection, I believe it might still be part of that collection.

Cheers

Subject: Chalie Pope's Diary. Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:56 am

Hi Littlehand .
I'm not having a go at John Young here , but as I posted ealrlier in this thread , I watched ' Black as hell , Thick as Grass ' and Griffith ISNT carrying any type of book while he is at Isandhlwautf!. Shocked

cheers 90th. Salute

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:33 am

Ive just scanned through it again, cant see any diary Im afraid.

regards

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Quote :: This is his last entry .

'' 22nd January , 1879 . 4 a.m. - A , C , D, E, F , H Companies of our's - 1, 2, 3, NNC - Mounted Troops and four guns off .

Great Firing , Relieved by 1 / 24th .
Alarm .
3 Columns zulus and mounted men on hill E.
Turn Out
7,000 ( !!!) more E.N.E , 4,000 of whom went round Lion's Kop.
Durnford , Basuto's , arrive and pursue ,- Rocket Battery .
Zulus retire everywhere ,
Men fall out for Dinner's .

I'm trying to make sense of Popes Dairy.

entry .
'' 22nd January , 1879 . 4 a.m. - A , C , D, E, F , H Companies of our's - 1, 2, 3, NNC - Mounted Troops and four guns off .

I take it he is referring to Chelmsford leaving.

Great Firing , Relieved by 1 / 24th .
Alarm .

What time would this have been. He notes the time of his first entry but not this one.

3 Columns zulus and mounted men on hill E.

Again this shows the impi's were moving into an attack formation.

Men fall out for Dinner's

Is he saying while all this was going on the men still had time to have their dinner.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

John

The men were stood at arms till Durnford arrived then a reoprt came in that

"The enemy are retiring in all directions."

This made Durnford leave camp and the men stand down.

Cheers

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Understand that.

"The enemy are retiring in all directions."

This shouldn't give way to let men stop for dinner.

It looks like the whole bloodly chain of Commarnd was up the spout.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The enemy were retiring and Durnford left to pursue them, the danger to the camp had passed.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonsoir,

Source: "Selected writings of the late William Moorsom Laurence, Major Commanding left wing Kimberley Horse and Editor of the Diamond News" (1882)
"A visit to Isandhlwana" / Rorke's Drift, 15th May, 1879.
"It was with no small satisfaction that I learnt on arriving here yesterday that there was a probability of a reconnaissance being pushed forward to the scene of action of the 22 January on the following day. Lieut.-CoL BLACK, who is temporary command of the garrison during the absence of Lieut.-Col. DEGACHER, announced his intention the same evening. (...); At about five 'clock this morning we started (...).
About the battlefield, Laurence wrote: "The ground was strewn with books and papers, dressing bags and uniforms cases, tins of preserved meat, etc, all of them articles possessing no value in Zulu eyes. All the cases, however, were broken or ripped open and the contents either taken away or strewn about the field . I found an interesting relic in the shape of a diary kept by Lieut. Pope, who was in command of the company of the 2-24th that was destroyed". (p.54).

Cheers

Frédéric

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

About Laurence:
According to the "Diamond News, March, 22nd, 1881" (p.4): "When the Zulu War broke out (...) He [Laurence] was one of the first officers sent out, and he was horoubly mentioned in the newspaper press at the time for the zeal and skill wich he displayed in organizing the transport service. Had it not been for an accident which confined him to quarters at Maritburg, he would probaly have been on the field of Isandhlwana or among the heroic defenders of Rorke's drift". fter an fifference with some of the local military authorities, he determined to resign his commission, and proceed with the advancing column as a special correspondant.

"Local General orders relating to the AZW of 1879" by Keith I. SMITH
n°79 dated 8th April 1879, Times of Natal, 11th April 1879:
"Assistant Commissary Laurence, Commissariat and Transport department having applied for permission t o resign his commission , leave of absence is granted to that officer to proceed to England, pending retirement".

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:43 am

Well done Frederic! I had no idea who had originally found the dairy.
You're getting very good at this research business!!
We'll have to find you a job in academia!
Would the University of Poitiers suit you?
Well done again.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Congratulations mon ami a great find!. The Laurence book is available on Archive
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Laurence also quotes the diary verbatim in his letter and there are small differences to the earlier quotes on this thread. In particular it says "Alarm. - Three columns Zulus and mounted men over hill E."
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour à tous,

Mr Whybra,
Very happy to see you again on this forum.

Mr Whybra and Steve:
Thank you for the compliments, qui venant de personnes telles que vous me vont droit au coeur.
But to be totally honest, this "find" is a pure coincidence (In reality, I was looking for informations about Wilsone Black)...

Cheers

Frédéric

Subject: Charlie Pope's Diary Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:03 pm

Excellent find Frederic , and Rusteze thanks for posting it , I skimmed over it and I think it was page 4 where he was talking of the Hospital at RD being burnt down , and the sick were killed along with the Doctor in charge ! Shocked

. Not quite right as we know scratch

90th

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Gary,
No mysteries in his letters!
LAURENCE was not at Isandhlwana or at Rorke's Drift the fatal day but at Mariztburg. He repeated in his letters some rumors circulating in Natal...
On May 15 (visit to Isandhlwana), he wrote that he was a member of the Black's detachment:first hand account.... if the man is not a pathological liar!

Cheers

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:18 am

Frederic
Most 'best' finds are made by coincidence or accident.
Rusteze
Laurence does quote from Pope's diary correctly. But he does not give the entries as they appear in the diary - one below the other in terms of layout - which is quite important in delineating remarks made together (i.e. at the same time). Jackson's book reproduces the layout 'verbatim'.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Morning Julian

I agree the layout of the diary entries is important for the reason you give. What struck me more though was the substantive difference between the Laurence quote of "Three columns of Zulus and mounted men OVER hill E" and all the earlier quotes on the thread which have it as "Three columns of Zulus and mounted men ON hill E". We all agree, I think, that small differences in wording are important when so little can be pinned down with certainty. "On" is reasonably unambiguous, "over" might mean "all over" or perhaps "behind", it could mean advancing towards or moving away from the camp. The sighting E comes before the sighting ENE, which implies to me that the movement is seen at the Notch/Quabe end of the range before it is seen at the more westerly portion of the ridge. At least that is what Pope believed. What it also demonstrates is that the sightings being reported to Pulleine and Durnford are being conveyed by them to the company commanders. Not surprising in itself perhaps but I am not sure we have any other direct evidence of that.

Steve

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:57 am

Absolutely. Worth pointing out.
'Over' from someone who states he copied it verbatim
'On' from Jackson who says he copied it verbatim from the original and the same from Norris-Newman in 1880 (who both reproduce the layout).
Interesting.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Can we be certain Newman did copy verbatim, and Jackson didn't just copy Newman's

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:35 am

Because Jackson told me he saw the diary in the 50s and copied it exactly into his notebook and I've seen his notebook. The layout and wording is exactly the same as Norris-Newman's.

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:58 am

1) Take it or leave it. N-N was a journalist and used to recording events and docs accurately. Jackson had it before him and could take his time over copying it out. His profession also lent itself towards accurate recording. Laurence I cannot speak for.
2) I believe that John Young has also seen the original diary. His opinion can be sought for verification.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Good morning Julian/ Frederic

Didn't take long did it ! Getting back to the sensible discussion, it is indeed interesting that two very trustworthy commentators have both recorded the word as "on". There are also other differences in the Laurence version once you take out his square bracket comments.

He begins "Relieved 4am by 1-24th." The thread version has a different sequence with the reference to 4 am, ACDEFH Companies, NNC, four guns and Great Firing coming before the Relieved 1-24th.

So it is not just layout but sequence. Someone is in a position to know which version is accurate but they aint saying!

Steve

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:57 am

rusteze
You are quite right, there are other differences which led me to believe that Laurence for whatever reason made errors. His record after all was not made for public consumption whereas N-N's was.
In the 100 years or so since N-N recorded it, no-one has gainsaid the content (though there have been typos in a few books). Jackson, as I said, saw the original in the 50s and re-recorded the same words. In the 50 years since, no-one has gainsaid them either. The owners of the diary could have if they were wrong.
John Young, as I said I believed, has seen the original and could confirm it.
My money is on N-N.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Thinking about it, he cannot have been relieved by 1/24th at 4 am can he? That surely refers to the time LC left the camp and therefore goes with Pope's listing of that force.

Just goes to show that even when a new piece of the jigsaw turns up it is just as likely to cloud the issue as clarify it.

Steve

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:43 pm

Rusteze
C coy 1/24th and G coy 2/24th were relieved at 4 a.m. by E coy 1/24th and F coy 1/24th respectively.

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:21 am

Companies fulfilled their duties in alphabetical order. Thus eventually when the inlying picquet (E coy) was required to become an outlying one, it simply shifted location up on to the plateau. Ditto for F coy when its call came.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

In Pope's Diary, what does he mean when he writes "E.N.E"

Subject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:10 am

Hi CTSG, not seen you for a while, wishing you all the best for the new year.

Come on my friend, don't tell me that you have forgotten your army training in orienteering and the use of a compass. Shocked

Just to jog your memory old chap, they are compass points, ie; E.N.E. means East North East, which is a compass bearing, the bearing is at approx 10 past the hour on your watch/clock.

Wishing you well CTSG, keep going old boy, and don't ever give up, remember that you are British.

Get well soon.

With my respect. Salute

» Popes Diary, the man who found it.
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