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littlehand

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Civilian named Byrne Empty
PostSubject: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon May 25, 2009 3:45 pm

From Hooks account as posted by John on the The Zulu War Battle Forum (Rorkes Drift)

A curious thing was that a civilian named Byrne, who had taken part in the defence and was killed, was buried outside the cemetery wall. I don't know why, except that he was not a regular soldier.”

Was this because Byrne was a civilian. ? or was there another reason (Hook says he doe's not know why. But say's Byrne was not a regular soldier.
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon May 25, 2009 4:24 pm

Found this regarding the Death of Byrne.

It was here Zulu fire, both from those under the wall and around Oscarberg, became apparent. Corporal Schiess was shot in the leg, and then lost his hat to a Zulu shot; Commissary Dalton, leaning over the parapet to shoot a Zulu, was wounded in the shoulder by a bullet and dragged out of the line to have his wound dressed; Keefe, 'B' Company's drummer, suffered a skin wound to the head; Corporal Scammel, of the NNC, was shot in the back, and Private Byrne, attempting to help him, was killed by a shot to the head, as was 'Old King' Cole, another private in 'B' Company. The fire from the mountain only grew worse, as Privates Scanlon, Fagan and Chick were killed.

The reason he was buried outside the cemetery is probably as Hook Says (He was not a regular soldier) Which does not seem right as he fought and died at Rorkes Drift.

sas1
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon May 25, 2009 6:31 pm

I have been looking for hours at various photo’s of the Rorkes Drift monument. I cannot see the name Byrne on the monument. If I’m wrong can someone post a photo of the monument showing his name.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon May 25, 2009 10:15 pm

So how many died at Rorke’s Drift I thought it was 17. In the cemetery picture I counted 17 piles of earth. But if Hook is correct about Byrne being buried outside the walk, doesn’t that make 18 dead.
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90th

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PostSubject: re- BYRNE   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 7:07 am

hi all

from chards report of R.D. i have condensed the figures

killed 2/24th x 9
killed 1/24th x 4
killed N.M.P x 1
killed N.N.C x 1 trooper anderson apparantly shot as he bolted when the N.N.C took flight.
killed N.N.C. x 1 native died in the hospital.

killed MR.BYRNE CMMT DEPT.

as to why he isnt buried with his collegues, i have no idea!! . maybe because he was a civilian.

also from chards report in RORKES DRIFT by THOSE WHO WERE THERE.
" mr byrne, acting commissariat officer, and who had behaved with great coolness and gallantry, was killed by a bullet through the head, just after he had given a drink of water to a wounded man of the N.N.C. (CPL. SCAMMEL)

.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 4:06 pm

This from the RDVC regarding Byrne.

"Born in Ireland in 1857.

For his action at Rorke's Drift he was mentioned in despatches. He was killed during the action, aged 22, while giving water to wounded Cpl. Scammell.

Interestingly, this action caught the attention of Schiess, who upon seeing Byrne get shot by the sniper, raced out over the barracades and killed the sniper, whilst also fighting off a number of other Zulu assailants.

He is buried at Rorke's Drift, his name is on the memorial there."

But was he buried outside the Cemetery.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 5:17 pm

Here is a list of all those that died at Rorkes Drift. 17 in total. The sketch of the cemetery shows 17 mounds of earth. Hook witnessed another body being buried out side the cemetery, who he says was Byrne. This would make 18 deaths and not 17.

Killed In Action
22nd January 1879

25B/987 Private Robert Adams D Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment*
Corporal Michael Anderson. 2nd Battn. 3rd Regiment. Natal Native Contingenmt
A Civilian, Louis A. Byrne Army Commissariat and Transport Department.
.25B/1335 Private James Chick D Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.
25B/801 Private Tom Cole. B Coy 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.
25B/969 Private John Fagan. B Coy 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.
2/24/1769 Private Garret Hayden. D Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment
1/24/1861 Private William Horrigan 1st Battn 24th Regiment*
Trooper Sydney Hunter. Natal Mounted Police.
25B/841 Private James Jenkins 1st Battn. 24th Regiment.
25B/623 Sergeant Robert Maxfield. G Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.**
25B/625 Private Edward Nicholas 1st Battn. 24th Regiment
25B/1051 Private John Scanlon A Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.
25B/1398 Private Joseph Williams. B Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.
Native of 1st Battn. 3rd Regiment of Natal Native Contingent.(Name unknown)


23rd January 1879
25B/35 Private William Beckett 1st Battn 24th Regt.* (Died of Wounds)
25B/1328 L/Sergeant. Thomas Williams. 2nd Battn 24th Regiment.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 6:05 pm

Is it possible the one buried outside the cemetery wall is the body of the native who was a patient in the hospital and who was killed by the Zulu ?

Bookworm
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 7:01 pm

Bookworm.

I didn’t think of that . Or could it have been William Anderson: Corporal 3rd Regiment N.N.C Killed by a British Fire. But he was shot in anger when he tried to run away. To show their disapproval of his actions. ?

But then again, Hook was quite a sober Chap. And he did say.

“A curious thing was that a civilian named Byrne, who had taken part in the defence and was killed, was buried outside the cemetery wall. I don't know why, except that he was not a regular soldier.”

Hook actually states his name: civilian named Byrne.

Maybe if there are any members of the RDVC they could asked the question on there. If Admin doesn’t mind that is.
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Civilian named Byrne Empty
PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 7:45 pm

No problems what so ever little hand. It might be interesting having two websites discussing the same topic. Thanks for asking.

Here's a link you might find interesting just to complicate the issue it question.

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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 8:43 pm

Confused Now 29 Men (I'll watch)

sas1
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyTue May 26, 2009 10:41 pm

So am I ???
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90th

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PostSubject: BYRNE   Civilian named Byrne EmptyWed May 27, 2009 6:36 am

HI ALL,

I"m with bookworm, i think the native from the N.N.C is more than likely to be buried outside the wall, even though HOOK says it is BYRNE. next best guess is it may be ANDERSON, who decided to do a runner and was shot by the defenders. as far as i am aware no-one was ever cited for shooting CPL. ANDERSON. ( some publications list him as trooper, some publications dont mention the incident, indeed CHARDS report doesn"t mention the incident, unless i missed it !!!!.

90th.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyWed May 27, 2009 11:32 pm

Its ok to guess who it might have been. But Hook clearly states.

"A curious thing was that a civilian named Byrne, who had taken part in the defence and was killed,"

He names him. "Byrne."

Hook knew who the native was because he spoke to him in the hospital,just before he was killed.

I don't think Hook would have put a name to this person if he didn't know it was him.
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90th

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PostSubject: byrne reply   Civilian named Byrne EmptyThu May 28, 2009 7:23 am

hi littlehand,

i think hook is probably correct, but maybe, just maybe, he was told second hand it was byrne, this is the beauty of this subject as after so many years we still cant tell for sure what actually happened.

cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptySun Jun 28, 2009 2:22 pm

As requested by littlehand, a photograph with his name on the memorial.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptySun Jun 28, 2009 3:44 pm

I879 Graves. Thanks for that. So I take in he was buried within the cemetery wall and not out-side as stated by Hook.

But I wonder who it was he saw being buried outside the cemetery ??
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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptySun Jun 28, 2009 4:32 pm

Hi littlehand

I do not have any references to who was and was not buried in the cemetery, so I am unable to help with that one. But I will start looking into it for you.
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Saul David 1879




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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon Jun 29, 2009 7:39 pm

It's possible that Hook could had seen Byrne being place in a temporary grave, until one had been made ready within the walls of the cemetery.

S.D
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon Jun 29, 2009 8:13 pm

Considering the climate, it may have been possible for health reasons he was placed in the ground.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon Jun 29, 2009 10:08 pm

Don't forget they were buried after the action, the wall and the obelisk were added in mid-1879, Hook was still at Rorke's Drift at the time, it maybe that the wall didn't encompass the entire burial area, putting Byrne's grave outside of the wall. Just a thought.

Isandlwana
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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyMon Jun 29, 2009 10:20 pm

I like that Isandlwana. Your theory is more probable.

S.D
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyWed Mar 21, 2012 10:24 pm

"The Graphic; June 28, 1879, P.629
ASSISTANT COMMISSARY LOUIS ALEXANDER BYRNE
One of the gallant defenders of Rorke’s Drift, was only twenty-two years of age, and was the fifth son of Mr. Richard Clark Byrne, of Cardiff. From the commencement of hostilities he had been most eager to take part in the defence, and during the attack he behaved most gallantly; his name being included in Lieut. Chard’s report to Lord Chelmsford as one of those who had most distinguished themselves. The attack on the little hastily constructed fort commenced about 4 p.m., and in the course of the first two hours the Zulus obtained possession of a portion of the lines, so that the defenders were exposed to a cross fire. Soon after this one of the men who was in an exposed position received a severe wound, and cried out for a drink of water, Mr. Byrne, who had been using his rifle splendidly, happened to be close by, and immediately fetched it for him, and it was while holding the cup to the lips of his wounded comrade that a Zulu bullet struck him in the head. He fell without a cry, and apparently died without a pang, and his body, with that of other gallant soldiers who fell in the same engagement, lies buried close by the Fort, the place being at present marked only by simple wooden cross."
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90th

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PostSubject: Civilian named Byrne    Civilian named Byrne EmptyThu Mar 22, 2012 4:44 am

It's more than likely already in this thread but Byrne's name isnt on the memorial , and was I think buried away from the soldiers who were killed at R.D. ? .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 8:18 am

Byrne's name is most definitely on the memorial.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 2:20 pm

You sure, I can't find it.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 3:09 pm

Hi
Look on this topic - the posting for Sunday 28th June has a photo of the memorial. Enlarge it and you'll find Byrne.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilian named Byrne   Civilian named Byrne EmptyThu Nov 01, 2012 9:37 pm

Yep!!! He's right, Byrne is there. The image was posted by Graves1879
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