Latest topics | » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Yesterday at 10:33 pm by SRB1965 » John West at KambulaYesterday at 9:57 am by John Young » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSun Nov 03, 2024 10:48 am by Julian Whybra » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai » Shipping - transport in the AZWSun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183 » 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BARSun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash » A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra » Isandlwana papers he,d by the RE museum Sun Oct 06, 2024 6:06 am by 90th » An Irish V.C. conundrum?Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:51 am by Julian Whybra » William Moore / William Potter 24th RegimentThu Sep 26, 2024 3:04 pm by Dash » Stalybridge men in the 24thThu Sep 26, 2024 2:24 pm by Dash » Grave of Henry SpaldingWed Sep 25, 2024 3:24 pm by Kenny » Thomas P Kensole and James J MitchellMon Sep 23, 2024 4:04 pm by Samnoco |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Civilian named Byrne | |
|
+9Saul David 1879 1879graves Chelmsfordthescapegoat ADMIN John 90th old historian2 sas1 littlehand 13 posters | Author | Message |
---|
littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Civilian named Byrne Mon May 25, 2009 3:45 pm | |
| From Hooks account as posted by John on the The Zulu War Battle Forum (Rorkes Drift)
A curious thing was that a civilian named Byrne, who had taken part in the defence and was killed, was buried outside the cemetery wall. I don't know why, except that he was not a regular soldier.”
Was this because Byrne was a civilian. ? or was there another reason (Hook says he doe's not know why. But say's Byrne was not a regular soldier. |
| | | sas1
Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 46
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Mon May 25, 2009 4:24 pm | |
| Found this regarding the Death of Byrne.
It was here Zulu fire, both from those under the wall and around Oscarberg, became apparent. Corporal Schiess was shot in the leg, and then lost his hat to a Zulu shot; Commissary Dalton, leaning over the parapet to shoot a Zulu, was wounded in the shoulder by a bullet and dragged out of the line to have his wound dressed; Keefe, 'B' Company's drummer, suffered a skin wound to the head; Corporal Scammel, of the NNC, was shot in the back, and Private Byrne, attempting to help him, was killed by a shot to the head, as was 'Old King' Cole, another private in 'B' Company. The fire from the mountain only grew worse, as Privates Scanlon, Fagan and Chick were killed.
The reason he was buried outside the cemetery is probably as Hook Says (He was not a regular soldier) Which does not seem right as he fought and died at Rorkes Drift.
sas1 |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Mon May 25, 2009 6:31 pm | |
| I have been looking for hours at various photo’s of the Rorkes Drift monument. I cannot see the name Byrne on the monument. If I’m wrong can someone post a photo of the monument showing his name. |
| | | old historian2
Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Mon May 25, 2009 10:15 pm | |
| So how many died at Rorke’s Drift I thought it was 17. In the cemetery picture I counted 17 piles of earth. But if Hook is correct about Byrne being buried outside the walk, doesn’t that make 18 dead. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: re- BYRNE Tue May 26, 2009 7:07 am | |
| hi all
from chards report of R.D. i have condensed the figures
killed 2/24th x 9 killed 1/24th x 4 killed N.M.P x 1 killed N.N.C x 1 trooper anderson apparantly shot as he bolted when the N.N.C took flight. killed N.N.C. x 1 native died in the hospital.
killed MR.BYRNE CMMT DEPT.
as to why he isnt buried with his collegues, i have no idea!! . maybe because he was a civilian.
also from chards report in RORKES DRIFT by THOSE WHO WERE THERE. " mr byrne, acting commissariat officer, and who had behaved with great coolness and gallantry, was killed by a bullet through the head, just after he had given a drink of water to a wounded man of the N.N.C. (CPL. SCAMMEL)
. |
| | | John
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Tue May 26, 2009 4:06 pm | |
| This from the RDVC regarding Byrne.
"Born in Ireland in 1857.
For his action at Rorke's Drift he was mentioned in despatches. He was killed during the action, aged 22, while giving water to wounded Cpl. Scammell.
Interestingly, this action caught the attention of Schiess, who upon seeing Byrne get shot by the sniper, raced out over the barracades and killed the sniper, whilst also fighting off a number of other Zulu assailants.
He is buried at Rorke's Drift, his name is on the memorial there."
But was he buried outside the Cemetery. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Tue May 26, 2009 5:17 pm | |
| Here is a list of all those that died at Rorkes Drift. 17 in total. The sketch of the cemetery shows 17 mounds of earth. Hook witnessed another body being buried out side the cemetery, who he says was Byrne. This would make 18 deaths and not 17.
Killed In Action 22nd January 1879
25B/987 Private Robert Adams D Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment* Corporal Michael Anderson. 2nd Battn. 3rd Regiment. Natal Native Contingenmt A Civilian, Louis A. Byrne Army Commissariat and Transport Department. .25B/1335 Private James Chick D Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment. 25B/801 Private Tom Cole. B Coy 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment. 25B/969 Private John Fagan. B Coy 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment. 2/24/1769 Private Garret Hayden. D Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment 1/24/1861 Private William Horrigan 1st Battn 24th Regiment* Trooper Sydney Hunter. Natal Mounted Police. 25B/841 Private James Jenkins 1st Battn. 24th Regiment. 25B/623 Sergeant Robert Maxfield. G Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment.** 25B/625 Private Edward Nicholas 1st Battn. 24th Regiment 25B/1051 Private John Scanlon A Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment. 25B/1398 Private Joseph Williams. B Coy. 2nd Battn. 24th Regiment. Native of 1st Battn. 3rd Regiment of Natal Native Contingent.(Name unknown)
23rd January 1879 25B/35 Private William Beckett 1st Battn 24th Regt.* (Died of Wounds) 25B/1328 L/Sergeant. Thomas Williams. 2nd Battn 24th Regiment. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Tue May 26, 2009 6:05 pm | |
| Is it possible the one buried outside the cemetery wall is the body of the native who was a patient in the hospital and who was killed by the Zulu ?
Bookworm |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Tue May 26, 2009 7:01 pm | |
| Bookworm.
I didn’t think of that . Or could it have been William Anderson: Corporal 3rd Regiment N.N.C Killed by a British Fire. But he was shot in anger when he tried to run away. To show their disapproval of his actions. ?
But then again, Hook was quite a sober Chap. And he did say.
“A curious thing was that a civilian named Byrne, who had taken part in the defence and was killed, was buried outside the cemetery wall. I don't know why, except that he was not a regular soldier.”
Hook actually states his name: civilian named Byrne.
Maybe if there are any members of the RDVC they could asked the question on there. If Admin doesn’t mind that is. |
| | | ADMIN
Posts : 4358 Join date : 2008-11-01 Age : 65 Location : KENT
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Tue May 26, 2009 7:45 pm | |
| No problems what so ever little hand. It might be interesting having two websites discussing the same topic. Thanks for asking. Here's a link you might find interesting just to complicate the issue it question. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] |
| | | sas1
Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 46
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Tue May 26, 2009 8:43 pm | |
| Confused Now 29 Men (I'll watch)
sas1 |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Tue May 26, 2009 10:41 pm | |
| |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: BYRNE Wed May 27, 2009 6:36 am | |
| HI ALL,
I"m with bookworm, i think the native from the N.N.C is more than likely to be buried outside the wall, even though HOOK says it is BYRNE. next best guess is it may be ANDERSON, who decided to do a runner and was shot by the defenders. as far as i am aware no-one was ever cited for shooting CPL. ANDERSON. ( some publications list him as trooper, some publications dont mention the incident, indeed CHARDS report doesn"t mention the incident, unless i missed it !!!!.
90th. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Wed May 27, 2009 11:32 pm | |
| Its ok to guess who it might have been. But Hook clearly states.
"A curious thing was that a civilian named Byrne, who had taken part in the defence and was killed,"
He names him. "Byrne."
Hook knew who the native was because he spoke to him in the hospital,just before he was killed.
I don't think Hook would have put a name to this person if he didn't know it was him. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: byrne reply Thu May 28, 2009 7:23 am | |
| hi littlehand,
i think hook is probably correct, but maybe, just maybe, he was told second hand it was byrne, this is the beauty of this subject as after so many years we still cant tell for sure what actually happened.
cheers 90th. |
| | | 1879graves
Posts : 3384 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:22 pm | |
| As requested by littlehand, a photograph with his name on the memorial. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:44 pm | |
| I879 Graves. Thanks for that. So I take in he was buried within the cemetery wall and not out-side as stated by Hook.
But I wonder who it was he saw being buried outside the cemetery ?? |
| | | 1879graves
Posts : 3384 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:32 pm | |
| Hi littlehand
I do not have any references to who was and was not buried in the cemetery, so I am unable to help with that one. But I will start looking into it for you. |
| | | Saul David 1879
Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:39 pm | |
| It's possible that Hook could had seen Byrne being place in a temporary grave, until one had been made ready within the walls of the cemetery.
S.D |
| | | 24th
Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:13 pm | |
| Considering the climate, it may have been possible for health reasons he was placed in the ground. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:08 pm | |
| Don't forget they were buried after the action, the wall and the obelisk were added in mid-1879, Hook was still at Rorke's Drift at the time, it maybe that the wall didn't encompass the entire burial area, putting Byrne's grave outside of the wall. Just a thought.
Isandlwana |
| | | Saul David 1879
Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:20 pm | |
| I like that Isandlwana. Your theory is more probable.
S.D |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:24 pm | |
| "The Graphic; June 28, 1879, P.629 ASSISTANT COMMISSARY LOUIS ALEXANDER BYRNE One of the gallant defenders of Rorke’s Drift, was only twenty-two years of age, and was the fifth son of Mr. Richard Clark Byrne, of Cardiff. From the commencement of hostilities he had been most eager to take part in the defence, and during the attack he behaved most gallantly; his name being included in Lieut. Chard’s report to Lord Chelmsford as one of those who had most distinguished themselves. The attack on the little hastily constructed fort commenced about 4 p.m., and in the course of the first two hours the Zulus obtained possession of a portion of the lines, so that the defenders were exposed to a cross fire. Soon after this one of the men who was in an exposed position received a severe wound, and cried out for a drink of water, Mr. Byrne, who had been using his rifle splendidly, happened to be close by, and immediately fetched it for him, and it was while holding the cup to the lips of his wounded comrade that a Zulu bullet struck him in the head. He fell without a cry, and apparently died without a pang, and his body, with that of other gallant soldiers who fell in the same engagement, lies buried close by the Fort, the place being at present marked only by simple wooden cross." |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Civilian named Byrne Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:44 am | |
| It's more than likely already in this thread but Byrne's name isnt on the memorial , and was I think buried away from the soldiers who were killed at R.D. ? . Cheers 90th. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4156 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:18 am | |
| Byrne's name is most definitely on the memorial. |
| | | Ulundi
Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:20 pm | |
| You sure, I can't find it. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4156 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:09 pm | |
| Hi Look on this topic - the posting for Sunday 28th June has a photo of the memorial. Enlarge it and you'll find Byrne. |
| | | Dave
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
| Subject: Re: Civilian named Byrne Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:37 pm | |
| Yep!!! He's right, Byrne is there. The image was posted by Graves1879 |
| | | | Civilian named Byrne | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |