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 Gabangaye - was he ubidied?

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littlehand
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quint



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Gabangaye - was he ubidied? Empty
PostSubject: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 4:46 pm

On the Wiki Isandlwana site it says that probably the last to fall at Isandlwana was Gabangaye, a amacHunu chief who was given over to the udibi boys to be killed by them.
Grisly stuff. First time I have heard of this. Anyone shed any light on it?
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 8:24 pm

Quint.

Click Here
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 8:11 am

Gabangaye kaPhakade of the amaCunu (i.e. the induna in Barry's coy) can be found in ZV.  Lock & Quantrill provide modern-day oral history as the source to describe how he and his son Mbojana were killed by uDibi boys once taken prisoner.
Note that this is NOT contemporary oral history collected at or close to the time and is therefore highly suspect.  It may not be taken as fact.
Littlehand has already provided you with the only contemporary reference to him at Isandhlwana given by Sikhota.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Gabangaye - was he ubidied? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 11:48 am

Hi,

This link was posted on the forum, in response to a similar question/point, from myself, a few months ago

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(sorry I forget by whom!) it has the full part of the section in BSQ that Littlehand has posted above.

Not much more detail. I believe Muziwento/Umsweanto's father had fought at Isandlwana and he (Muziwento/Umsweanto) sneaked on to the field soon after the battle, for a look around.......

Ta

Sime
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 12:01 pm

Hi Simon
I think this is the section you were after. Its the basis of the quotes from L and Q. I would probably disagree with Julian and give it a bit more weight than he has.
It is second hand but the whole article/book has a certain ring of truth about it.

There was present too Usikota,l1 brother of Cetshwayo(15); he saw the Zulu army coming up and cried, CO! Not for me! I'm off! I know those fellows over there. It is just "Coming, come' with them. They are not to be turned aside by any man, and here are we sitting still for all the world like a lot of turkeys!' Then he called to his brother, 'Away! let's away, Ungabangaye, let's make a run for it!' Said Ungabangaye, 'Oh stop a moment just till I see them tackled by the white men!' 'O!' cried Usikota, 'A pleasant stay to you!' He seized his horse and bolted. He escaped through the 'neck,' before the 'impi' encircled the [campV2 Up came the Zulu army and made an end of Ungabangaye.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Gabangaye - was he ubidied? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 12:50 pm

Thanks Frank

90th is winging his was back from Heathrow to Australia, at the moment...

Cheers

Sime
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 2:38 pm

He may just bump into a couple of cricketers on the way back. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 3:28 pm

Yes, Frank, it does 'sound' right but so did Mpitimpipiti and Zabange (in parts). Weight doesn't come into it.
You and I have discussed oral history before, its merits and demerits...but at 140 years and no secondary corroboration from someone like Sigcwelegcwele it can only be taken for what it is (despite the renowned oral historical abilities of the Zulu).
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 3:54 pm

Hi Julian, I don't think the comparison with Zabange is fair, as we both know that was a modern composition whereas the Zulu Boy is well dated. Again I would agree to disagree in that it cant be fully discounted because there is no corroboration. If we were to travel that route a great amount of the JS chronicles would have to follow suite, and that as we know is an invaluable second hand or 'as told to' source. So I would still say it has weight as a record of the times just as much as JS recorded conversations and memories.
The whole document just conjures up Zulu life, running away from Gogo, the beatings from the elder, the absolute naughtiness of a young boy.
It works for me on many levels but I do take your point.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyThu Mar 29, 2018 4:07 pm

Frank, well, maybe not Zabange though that too now is nearly 50 years old.
The John Stuart Archive has age and a scholarly approach on its side and is a different kettle of fish entirely to how, where and when the Gabangaye anecdote (as per L&Q) was obtained...and of course the JSA often corroborates by cross-referencing one Zulu with another.
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyFri Apr 23, 2021 1:49 am

There is another, more credible piece of evidence in Storm and Sunshine in South Africa. Gabangaye was described as older and overweight, having a hard time staying mounted and keeping up during the flight. Seeing his men refused to leave him, he sat down on a rock and refused to move so they could get away. The incident is presented in a pathetic light but I find it rather noble and heroic. Prince Sikhota also has an anecdote in which he says he saw the way things were headed, decided to cut slingload on the crumbling operation, and suggested Gabangaye do the same. The latter refused, saying he wished to see how his men fought.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyFri Apr 23, 2021 7:29 am

And the sources for the two remarks given in Storm and Sunshine are...?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyFri Apr 23, 2021 8:32 am

Swinny?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Gabangaye - was he ubidied?   Gabangaye - was he ubidied? EmptyFri Apr 23, 2021 2:43 pm

Well, written by Rosamond Southey obviously in 1910...but...
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