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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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» A note on O/6 Battery, Royal Artillery.
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» Lieutenant O'Connell, 60th Rifles. 1880 Isandlwana map.
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 Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.

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littlehand

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 8:18 pm

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Drummer Boy 14

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 9:17 pm

Major Durnford and Lieutenant Smith???? scratch



Colonel Durnford and Lieutenant Scott are the correct one's
where did this come from??

Cheers
DB14
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runner2



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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyMon Nov 07, 2011 11:14 am

What has this got to do with, " 1879 Zulu War Campaign Medal."?
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyMon Nov 07, 2011 12:17 pm

Thanks Runner2. Topic has been moved. Open your eyes Littlehand... Idea

Admin
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyFri Apr 25, 2014 3:34 pm

Do we know who the two Europeans were! And is the Kraal in-question the one that was shelled by the British during the Battle?

THE BURIAL OF THE DEAD AT ISANDULA.

"A further batch of correspondence respecting the affairs of "South Africa, has been issued, and contains an appendix relating to the burial of the; dead at Isandula. In February last, in consequence of a question asked in the House of Commons, Sir M. Hicks-Beach obtained copies of dispatches which had been forwarded by Sir Garnet Wolseley to the War Office, on the subject, including a report from Major Bromhead, which stated that in September last year he encamped at Isandula with two companies of the 2-24th Regiment. The battle-field was thoroughly cleaned, and all debris removed and buried or burned. The remains still unburied were decently interred, as well as such as were found only partly covered. Being unable to obtain the necessary information to identify individual graves, Major Bromhead caused three cairns to be erected at points where the largest number had been buried, and sixteen young eucalyptus trees were planted in a circle round the lower cairn. During the halt at Isandula part of a broken color- pole, 2-24th Regiment, was found on the battle-field, and one of the color cases was found in the bed of the first stream that crosses the fugitive track. In April last Sir Garnet Wolseley reported that, it having been brought to his notice the' actions of the weather had exposed the bodies of some of the dead who had been buried at Isandula he had directed a party, under the command of Lieutenant O'Connell, 60th Rifles, to proceed to the spot to examine carefully the ground and to rebury any exposed remains. Lieutenant O'Connell reported that on arriving at the battlefield he extended the men in a line across the place where Lord Chelmsford's camp had been, and moved them slowly backwards and forwards. They removed all the uncovered bones they could find and buried them in two large deep graves, and renewed the stones and earth over the graves that required it. A trench was dug on the upper side of the place where the Carabineers were buried, and a small wall made along the side of the trench to prevent the earth falling into it and filling it up again. This will prevent the water running down the hill and washing the earth off these graves. He found skeletons of Zulus along the line of their attack; these he caused to be buried where they lay. There were no traces of the remains of the two Europeans which had been seen last October where the road crosses the spruit. There were many bodies of Europeans and Zulus, including some Natal Zulus, lying exposed throughout the first half-mile of the "fugitives' track." These were deposited in a large grave and a cairn of stones erected over it. Near where the guns were lost there were many bodies which had once been buried, but had become exposed by the action of water flowing in the spruit and dongas. These remains were re-interred in some instances and better covered in others. There were very few between the point where the fugitives' track crosses the second spruit and the cliffs over the Buffalo, and those found were, with the exception of one or two, unburied. There were several bones in the bed of the second spruit, which is crossed by the "fugitives track." It appeared to Lieutenant O'Connell that all men of the infantry who had escaped so far were killed here. All the bodies that were lying in the watercourses he caused to be reburied on the banks and above flood water level, and well covered with bits of rock and stone. There were but few bones close to the fugitives' drift," as all those who had fallen there seemed to have been carefully buried. Several of the graves, however, required re-covering. He believed that a few stray bones would be found from time to time at Isandula for many years to come owing to the water- courses. He made inquiries of natives respecting the kraal where it was said two companies of the 24th Regiment had fallen, but they knew nothing about it. Mr. Johnson, the missionary, residing near the field, had also made inquiries about this kraal, but the natives had never heard of it. He believed the story to have no foundation. Chaplain Ritchie reported to the Chief of the Staff that he celebrated the funeral service over the remains which had been buried by Lieutenant O'Connell's party and, speaking both as a clergyman, and as one who lost a very near connection and many intimate friends in the engagement, he expressed the opinion that all had now been done that the most sensitive relative of any of the deceased could desire.

Source: http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3041931/ART68
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyFri Apr 25, 2014 6:44 pm

This is the first I have heard of two europeans being found dead on the trail?

What date did Lieutenant O'Connell undertake this task! There were certainly a lot of bones laying around among other items.
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John Young

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyFri Apr 25, 2014 10:39 pm

OH2,

2nd Lieutenant Maurice O'Connell, of the 3rd Battalion, 60th Rifles, who appropriately was commissioned on 22nd January 1879, conducted his burial mission in March 1880.

Less then a year later on 8th February 1881 O'Connell was mortally wounded at the Battle of Schuinshoogte.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySat Apr 26, 2014 6:31 am

It certainly would not be a surprise if there were bodies found on the trail. Where the road crosses the Manzimyama was the place the right horn intercepted the first Fugitives. So yes highly possible.
The story of the two missing companies was first mentioned by Chelmsford. It was again mentioned on a couple of occasions, Jabez I think was another. But there is no definitive suggestion as to who they were. Hence the mythical Kraal they were found in is just that Mythical. There was again a comment by the Rev Witt that he observed soldiers taking cover in a kraal, but as his view from RD was limited to the western face of the mountain that could only be a reference to the retreating forces coming over the neck. There is a large grouping of cairns on the Western slope close to a very old stone structure and also an indication of a Kraal on Mainwarings map. But I don't believe these two issues are connected.
John the shelled kraal was one that Roberts took shelter in and was on the line of retreat from the plateau down to the plain, so probably close to where the Isandlwana Lodge is today.

Cheers
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old historian2

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySat Apr 26, 2014 9:38 am

Is it not possible there was a Kraal. But was removed a short time after the Battle?
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Frank Allewell

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySat Apr 26, 2014 1:18 pm

Hi Old H. There were a number of Kraals in the immediate vicinity, including one on the rocky ridge adjacent to the camp. But non of them had reports of company strength body counts.

Cheers
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySat Apr 26, 2014 1:59 pm

So what do we know about " Roberts " was he part of the camp. Was he working independantly ?
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Frank Allewell

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySat Apr 26, 2014 4:33 pm

OH
Roberts lead one of the mounted troops onto the plateau under Shepstone and was part of the fighting retreat down onto the Tahelane spur. He seems to have been separated from the rest of the company and tried to work his way down of the plateau to the East of the rest of Durnfords horse. Under pressure. I assume, or possibly cut of by the advancing impi he took up station in a kraal. It was here he came under fire from his own artillery.

Cheers
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impi

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySun Apr 27, 2014 9:56 am

Is there anything in Alfred Boast's report 1883 that shows bones or other items being found during his work?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySun Apr 27, 2014 12:09 pm

Hi Impi
I you are referring to the bodies on the trail that OH was talking about then I don't believe that Boast reported any cairns at that point. There is however a cairn where the present road crosses over the Manzimyama. Theres been a lot of speculation about that particular cairn, some say its a party that was working on the road, but app working parties were called in before the retreat started, others that its and isivane ( not to sure on that spelling), that is a traditional point at a river crossing. The existing road however is around 50 to 60 metres from the original road and crossing point.
All we do know really is that the first fugitives left by the road and continued to do so until they were forced progressively to the south by pressure from the right horn. So its highly possible that there were fatalities there. As Boast doesn't indicate a cairn at that point it is therefore probable the internment happened at a later point.

Cheers
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impi

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySun Apr 27, 2014 3:07 pm

This road working party. Are we saying, they they were killed, whilst working on the road.


Springbok what do you make of this. It may make some sense to you has you know the area well!

http://adventuresinhistoryland.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/a-road-to-isandlwana/
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Frank Allewell

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 3:19 pm

impi
Not to sure what he is getting at really. The 'road' he refers to was a traders route/track. But there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the current road, as he has drawn is not the road followed by Chelmsford. There is also a thought that there were in fact two routes followed, one for the wagons and a separate shorter one used by the mounted men. I don't have access to my files at present but over the next couple of days I will post a map given to me by Charles from The Rorkes Drift Hotel. I have a gut feel that Ken Gillings was involved in researching it.

Working Party
It has been suggested that there was a working party on the Manzimyama, but considering that for a few hours the camp was under arms I cant visualise and working party being outside the camp perimeter. Im also pretty sure that the working party was working to the front of the camp on the road taken by Chelmsford.

Cheers
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John

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 5:40 pm

I'm sure the working party, wouldn't have put a sign up " Road Closed " with the sounds of attacking Zulu's and gun fire in the back ground? Run away, Run away!
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySat May 03, 2014 2:38 am

springbok9 wrote:
OH
Roberts lead one of the mounted troops onto the plateau under Shepstone and was part of the fighting retreat down onto the Tahelane spur. He seems to have been separated from the rest of the company and tried to work his way down of the plateau to the East of the rest of Durnfords horse. Under pressure. I assume, or possibly cut of by the advancing impi he took up station in a kraal. It was here he came under fire from his own artillery.

Cheers

Capt. W.H. Stafford.
"Natal Mercury' 22nd January 1929, the following:
"The one exception was Lieutenant Roberts, of Pinetown, who had managed to get his men into a cattle kraal on the ledge of the ridge. I heard later on that this little band had been shelled by our artillery, and that Roberts had been killed as a result of the blunder"
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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySat May 03, 2014 12:13 pm

Working party..Anstey!.
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impi

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptySun May 04, 2014 10:28 pm

Is this working party not a myth?
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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyThu May 08, 2014 10:31 pm

After the departure of the General and Glyn
at about 4-30am. the camp routine continued
normally. The vedettes under Lieutenant Scott
of the Natal Carbineers rode out to their posts,
the night picquets of the 1st 24th and 2nd 24th
were relieved, and a fatigue party under lieutenant
Anstey 1st 24th marched out to continue work
on the road.
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littlehand

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyThu May 08, 2014 10:38 pm

Wasn't Lieutenant Scott's body found near Durnsford's body at the rear of the camp.
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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyThu May 08, 2014 11:35 pm

Scott was picqueting the conical hill.

Nearby and close to the road were Durnford,
Bradstreet, scott, and 21 of the police, a
dozen volunteers chiefly Carbineers, and
thirty or so of the 24th.
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littlehand

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 12:09 pm

Springbok, this might interest you in that a New body of men had been discovered, that had not previously been found by any of other parties that had visited the site. it gives a location, that you might know. 3rd Image down.
It wasn't Younghusband's company see image 4

Revisit 20th June 1879

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Source: The Welshman Carmarthen. Friday August 22nd 1879 (Welsh Newspapers on-line)
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 2:48 pm

3rd Image down, does that not relate to Popes company!
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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 3:01 pm

LH
Really fascinating article, good post.
I can place all the groups but, and its a bloody big but, the main interest for me is that it mentions Anstey, Dyer and White in the same group. The accepted positions, and Im still in hospital so cant get to my files to confirm, is White above the 2/24th camp, Dyer I think with Younghusband and of course Anstey way down by the stream about a mile away.
Need to really think that one through.


Nice one LH.

Cheers
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 3:26 pm

The article reports that, of the 500 bodies buried by Black, many of them had been identified by the names in their clothing - this must have included other ranks as well as officers. It is hard to imagine these were not noted at the time.  So, is such a list known, or might it still be lurking somewhere in the archives ?

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 4:24 pm

Hi Steve, very few were identified, mores the pity.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 4:29 pm

Steve should have added that at least we know they weren't SWB.  agree 
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 4:39 pm

Mores the pity, as you say. I have a distant relative, 1/24th, who is there somewhere and I would dearly love to know where.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 4:58 pm

Who would have been the three unidentified officers found with Younghusband any ideas !

it also states that more than one company had made it to Younghusbands positon. Any ides which companies !
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 7:36 pm

Certainly a good post LH.
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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 9:43 pm

springbok9 wrote:
LH
Really fascinating article, good post.
I can place all the groups but, and its a bloody big but, the main interest for me is that it mentions Anstey, Dyer and White in the same group. The accepted positions, and Im still in hospital so cant get to my files to confirm, is White above the 2/24th camp, Dyer I think with Younghusband and of course Anstey way down by the stream about a mile away.
Need to really think that one through.


Nice one LH.

Cheers
From memory Dyer was found with Wardell, not with younghusband, an assageai in thé chest.
Cheers
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 9:53 pm

[quote="Chard1879"]Who would have been the three unidentified officers found with Younghusband any idea

One of them was probably Lt Hodson
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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyTue May 13, 2014 10:16 pm

Interesting post, thanks LH
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyWed May 14, 2014 11:38 am

It says burying parties were sent out under 2nd Lt Armitage. One sent to the camp of 1-14th. What camp would this be? Or is it a spelling mistake!
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PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyWed May 14, 2014 4:00 pm

Whats a horse wagon ?
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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyWed May 14, 2014 4:31 pm

littlehand wrote:
Springbok, this might interest you in that a New body of men had been discovered, that had not previously been found by any of other parties that had visited the site. it gives a location, that you might know. 3rd Image down.
It wasn't Younghusband's company see image 4

Revisit 20th June 1879

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Source: The Welshman Carmarthen. Friday August 22nd 1879 (Welsh Newspapers on-line)


3rd news artical down.
""January 22nd, Capt. Gardner of the Hussars(25) rode into Utrecht in a deplorable state, poor fellow, with an old shirt and something resembling breeches. His horse was about done up. He desired to know who was in charge and when informed that Lieutenant Justice of the 13th Light Infantry was in command, he shouted, "Up with your draw bridge, the General's camp is taken and every man slaughtered.' We at once put him down as mad, he had nothing to show that he was a military man, but after being closely examined (we had to be particular) he proved himself to be a captain in the regiment of Hussars mentioned to us and even thanked us for putting him through his pacings. It was a great shock to us to hear of the disaster, a regiment - the lst Battalion 24th with whom we shared the trying times of the Gaika and Galeka War of the previous year, Colonels de Gasher (sic)Durnford, Puleen (sic) and other officers, together with other ranks with whom we fought side by side. You can imagine our feelings. The Bandmaster (Harry Bullard) of the gallant 24th was a particular friend of mine and only got the appointment a short time before his death. He was Bugle-Major of the 90th, Was sent to Kneller Hall and passed first class. He... was killed on that ever memorable day, defending the amunition wagons. It brought back memories of the past, he was a good fellow."


Source:The Journal of Lt.-Col. John Scott
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sas1

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Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879.   Burying the Dead at Isandlwana. Saturday 23 August 1879. EmptyWed May 14, 2014 5:26 pm

Did they manage to get an ammo wagon away from the camp ?
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