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» Lieut.-Col. Edward Denman Cropper
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» Robert Henry Gunning. Lieutenant. Col. The King’s Royal Rifle Corps
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» Out there from David Jackson
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» 2128 Pte. R. Johnston of the 88th Foot
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» Now May Men Weep: Isandlwana: A Story From The Zulu War. By Mark Hobson
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» Colour Sergeant keane General Staff Corps. Isandhlwana
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» iSandlwana battlefield sword
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» 57th Regiment at the battle of Gingindlovu
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» Sergeant John Lines
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» 1823. Pte. J. CRICHTON 2-21st FOOT (North British Fusiliers) ROYAL SCOTS.
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 Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.

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Dave

Dave

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyThu Nov 10, 2011 7:28 pm

From Trooper Clark.

Quote :
"I found a portion of a tent and lay down alonside the body of a 24th man, with 5 badges but he was so cut open ( disembowled) with an assegai.

I wasn't aware soldiers were awarded badges.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 1:02 pm

Cant’s find anything on this, apart from the usual military insignias, that were awarded. Five Badges. scratch
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 1:24 pm

Quote :
Finding myself among the bodies nearly drove me mad and I would have given anything to be back in Natal and out of this mess.

This says in all.
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bill cainan



Posts : 225
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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 3:41 pm

Five badges ? Maybe five good conduct chevrons ?

Bill
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts fro trooper Clark   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 4:07 pm

Hi all

Could these 'badges' have been any of the following.

Good conduct
Marksman
Signaller
Merit
Service
Instructor (small arms, etc)

Or could they have been medals from previous campaigns?

Might they have been his company's own awards for various things like a certain drill, or taget shooting, smartness, or even to show he was trained in first aid, or could they have been some sort of regimental sports awards, boxing for instance?

Just a few thoughts

Regards

Martin.







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littlehand

littlehand

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 4:13 pm

Anyone got any images of the badges listed by Martin.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts from trooper Clark posted by Barry   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 6:09 pm

Hi littlehand

The good conduct badge would be a chevron worn 'upside down' on the sleeve cuff.

The signaller badge was crossed flags, one in blue, the other in white with a blue stripe, also worn on the sleeve above the good conduct chevrons.

The marksman and small arms instructor badge was crossed rifles, I believe it was on the cuff for S.A.I. and on upper arm for marksman.

If the man had been in the army for a length of time, he may well have seen action before, and had been awarded with campaign medals from those actions.

I can't be sure of how the others I mentioned looked, but there were all sorts of categories that might well have been awarded with some sort of badge, which would most likely be the sew on type.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Martin.
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littlehand

littlehand

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 7:01 pm

Hi. Martin. That's the ones I was thinking of.

Quote :
would most likely be the sew on type.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts from trooper Clark posted by Barry   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 8:13 pm

Hi liitlehand

Glad it was of some use to you.

The good conduct stripes were only for private soldiers and lance corporals, they had to be removed on attaining the rank of corporal, from what I gather they were awarded up to four stripes as follows.

2 years = 1 stripe
6 years = 2 stripes
12 years = 3 stripes
18 years = 4 stripes

18 years seems a long while to serve in the army and still be a private or lance corporal, but I suppose in those days men signed on for many years, and many of them would have been veterans at Isandlwana, the reforms after the Crimea might not have filtered down to some of the men that had previously signed on, just a thought.

Another thought that I had (but not sure if they would have been issued back then), could the badges mentioned have been wound badges?

Regards

Martin.
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90th

90th

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts of Tpr Clarke's Diary by Barry.    Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptyFri Nov 11, 2011 11:35 pm

Hi Mr.M. Cooper .
I'm fairly certain wound badges werent around at the time of the zulu war , I would go with Good Conduct
Chevrons possibly with a Marksmen's badge or some other similar badge . I also doubt previous campaign
medals or other awards from another campaign would be taken to Sth Africa , I think they would be left at home
with family members for safe keeping , why would you take them with you on a campaign ? .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Mr M. Cooper

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts from trooper Clark posted by Barry   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptySat Nov 12, 2011 3:43 am

Hi 90th

Yes, I wasn't sure about the wound badges, I didn't think they would have been issued back then. Of course you are right, rather than saying medals, I should perhaps have said the small medal ribbons worn on the chest, the medals themselves would have been left at home for safe keeping.

There might have been other sew on type badges that he could have had, for instance, small arms instructor, pioneer, signaller, marksman, good conduct, skill at arms perhaps, or merit (proficiency) at some certain task.

Things would have been a lot different in the Victorian army, so most of the above is just guess work, but I can't imagine that the five badges would have been the pin on type, my guess is that whatever they were, they would most likely be the sew on type.

Regards

Martin.
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Mr M. Cooper

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts from trooper Clark posted by Barry   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptySat Nov 12, 2011 4:02 am

Hi all

A thought just occured.

Could the five badges have been those on the right arm of a colour sergeant? For instance, at the top of the arm would be the crown, then the crossed union flags, then three gold chevrons = 5.

It's just a thought, so please don't shoot me down in flames :lol!:

Regards

Martin.
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90th

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts of Tpr Clarke's Diary by Barry.    Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptySat Nov 12, 2011 8:39 am

Hi Mr.M.Cooper.
Going by your first post those above Lance Corp didnt wear GC Badges ?. I dont know if that is true ?.
So if it is true they cant be on a Clr - Sgt . I do agree that they more than likely are / were sow on badges
of one description or another .
cheers 90th Idea .

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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Taken from the transcripts from trooper Clark posted by Barry   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptySat Nov 12, 2011 12:55 pm

Hi 90th

Yes, only private soldiers and lance corporals wore good conduct chevrons, they had to be removed on attaining the rank of corporal. I read this on insignia of the British Army. I think you may have misunderstood what I meant about the five badges being a colour sergeant, I didn't mean that they were good conduct stripes, what I meant was the five badges could have been 1. the crown, 2. the crossed union flags, 3,4, and 5, the three gold chevrons. I know it's a bit of a long shot, but trooper Clark might just have counted the three chevrons (3), the crossed union flags (4), and then the crown (5), and said five badges, very unlikely, but it was just a thought. They couldn't have been wound badges, I have just read that they started being worn during WW1. So it is a bit of a puzzle as to what trooper Clark was talking about with the 5 badges he saw, but I think we can all agree that whatever they were, they were most likely to have been the sew on type.

Regards

Martin Idea
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littlehand

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Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry.   Taken from the Transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diary posted by Barry. EmptySat Nov 12, 2011 7:11 pm

"Tents had been burned wagons driven into donga's (ditchs) , oxen and horses killed and the whole place was strewn with kit of different kinds.
Quote :
One ox had been left alive but tied up to a wagon and for some unexplained reason Mansel would not let us cut it loose but it was rather left to starve to death" !.

Can't quite understand why "Mansel" would do this. Any ideas. It appears "Clarke" himself couldn't understand.
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